OSAS - Cruise Control

[Brother-Paul]

Now, don't you think that these so-called believers would have wanted to know about the validity of their profession so that they could have avoided the condemnation of Jesus?

Greetings brother.

Is this not what helps in confusing the OSAS situation?

The world is full of those who think they will go to heaven when they die!!!

How many are truly born again?

How many have accepted Jesus according to the Word of God?

How many have taken up their cross daily in His Name?

How many have been deceived by what the world says?

How many have been deceived by what denominations have told them?

How many have not been taught the truth in the Word?

How many have been misguided by ministers?

How many have been told born again is a cult?

All these misguided teaching or understanding, and more, lead a believer to think a person was never saved in the first place.

99% of funeral services speak of the person who has passed away as they have gone to heaven. The ones that are truly being deceived are the ones at the service that are not born again. They believe what they 'hear' on that day and as we get older and attend more and more funeral services we hear the same message over and over again. 'My Father's house has many rooms... He has prepared a place for .....'

If we are born again PTL He has, if we are not born again He hasn't created that room for them.

Bless you always

 

[RJ]

I think before us is the key to starting to understanding OSAS RJ.

@Brother-Paul , with all due respect and with the most feeling of love that I can project on this page, please, I have no use for YOUR understanding and, because of it's ramifications and bondage to untruth about the power of God, I will avoid it at all cost!!

You dear brother are saved and growing in faith, but we are all at different stages. Our dear brother Amedeus2 is growing in faith also, we all are.

You and @Amedeus2 believe the same thing, that essentially you are saying that a true "born again"Christian can lose their salvation and I say that is impossible and living a lie.....I never have said that either of you are not saved. Amedeus2 has said that he disagrees with me and has moved on, I suggest you do the same.

But the argument OSAS from the perspective of, God loves us and does not want one soul to be lost, when looked at from a mature Christian point of view, we will not go back to the old self, we are saved, we are in Christ, Christ is in us

Yes, and that perspective lives inside me!

Now when we take our eyes of our own view regarding OSAS, and look at these vulnerable souls which if they do not grow in faith they will wither!

Here is something else that I am sure we disagree on: Our faith is a another gift of Grace. It seems odd to me that your quote at the bottom of your post is Ephesians 2:8-10, yet yo don't listen to it! :
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
We don't create our own faith, it is from God, otherwise he would regard it a work of ours and reject it!

OSAS is not correct thinking, a Saved soul can be lost and scripture confirms it in many locations.

Of course, you don't mind showing some scripture here, that confirms this.
While you are at it and, because you seem to insinuate that you are a "Mature Christian", would you please explain the following, so we can all benefit from that wisdom?:

• Romans 6:4" For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives." ........this appears to me that we have died and been resurrected with Christ. If we have been resurrected with him...how is it that we can become UN-resurrected from him? What you say and, as I have done, please provide scripture!
• Johns 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.......If the mark of a true Christian is Christ in you and he says he won't lose you, please explain and show scripture exactly how Christ will now lose you and you become unsaved?
• John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand......exactly how is it that we will lose our eternal life and become UN-saved...Scripture please?!

 

[Chopper]

Greetings brother.

Is this not what helps in confusing the OSAS situation?

The world is full of those who think they will go to heaven when they die!!!

How many are truly born again?

How many have accepted Jesus according to the Word of God?

How many have taken up their cross daily in His Name?

How many have been deceived by what the world says?

How many have been deceived by what denominations have told them?

How many have not been taught the truth in the Word?

How many have been misguided by ministers?

How many have been told born again is a cult?

All these misguided teaching or understanding, and more, lead a believer to think a person was never saved in the first place.

99% of funeral services speak of the person who has passed away as they have gone to heaven. The ones that are truly being deceived are the ones at the service that are not born again. They believe what they 'hear' on that day and as we get older and attend more and more funeral services we hear the same message over and over again. 'My Father's house has many rooms... He has prepared a place for .....'

If we are born again PTL He has, if we are not born again He hasn't created that room for them.

Bless you always

O my friend, how I grieve over all these false belief systems that have come out of those wicked places and people.

I remember a young woman who was the pianist in the second Baptist Church that I was the Pastor. One of the main theme's of my entire ministry has always been, "Are you biblically saved". Her name was Mary Percival. I had forgotten all about her when I received a letter from her. She had married an Army soldier and was stationed in Germany.

Mary said that she and her husband went to a Bible Conference, and she was convicted by the Holy Spirit that she was not saved. She said, "I used to hate it when you used to preach on "are you biblically saved". She said she always thought she was saved and was astounded by the conviction that she wasn't saved.

Mary wrote that she went forward at the altar and confessed her need for true Salvation. She said, after a time of confession at the altar, she became a new person in Christ Jesus and thanked me for always teaching Truth. O that blessed my heart. If all I ever preached, if only one person was convicted of their error and turned to our Lord for true Salvation, that one person's repentance would be worth my endeavor to serve Jesus.

 

[amadeus2]

A person ought to know Jesus brother but, does this not also come with time. If I met you face to face I would see you, even if we have an afternoon together and a meal a nice chat and a laugh, we would not know one another. First we accept a person, then we get to know someone.

Yes, so it is. It's like with my wife. I met her a bit more than 44 years ago and we thought we were in love. Now, finally after close to 44 years of marriage we are in love, but it took a long while to discover or develop that.

God calls us whilst we are still sinners, unworthy to be called, but He calls us. When we accept Jesus we probably accept Him based on what we are told we certainly do not accept him because we know him, at that stage we certainly don't know him. Hence the milk comes first, faith comes by hearing, if we are not fed we will wither and die, go back to the old self.

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5

That was just the beginning and really a very poor one at that, but... there's been some progress for some of us. Thank God for that.

There is without doubt, I think, a fine line when we try to understand OSAS. The argument will always remain was a person saved in the first place, but I believe there is a stronger argument, based on scripture, that a person can be saved, not bear fruit, not be fed the Word, not have fellowship with born-gain believers, not have sufficient prayer, that they were the seed sown on stony ground and left there, lacking food and water so they return to the old self. The only thing they knew!

I do believe in God's foreknowledge of the final end for each, yet I do not believe in predestination in sense that some people. We make the decisions which cause us ultimately to rise or fall before God. In truth, those who are to be saved are already known to God. When is that knowledge ours? We know that we have overcome some obstacles standing between us and God when we repent for the first time, but we are not overcomers as Jesus was an overcomer until we have overcome the last obstacle.

Jesus never sinned, but when he took on a veil of flesh he took on all of the temptations of any man. He was subject to: ..."the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life,..." I John 2:16, but he never surrendered to any of them. We, on the other hand, all of us, had a history of surrendering those things before we met the Master. Jesus was clean, but he took on him our temptations and overcame all of them. I believe the last one was here, prior to his crucifixion:

"And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt." Matt 26:39

When he had prayed that same prayer three times, then he was the overcomer of John 16:33 and when he began praying in John 17, he was in a place that he had never before been while also in his flesh:

"And now I am no more in the world..." John 17:11

He was no longer in the world of the temptations of his own flesh. He was the first overcomer. We have started our journey and we have overcome probably many things, but until we have overcome the last obstacle between us and God we still have work to do. The tools have been provided. There is now a Way where there was only a closed door before protected by the Word of God. Now it has been opened by the Word of God.

In the example lies a serious message, I think, do not bring a soul to Christ and leave it to fend for itself.

What does a new soul know about Jesus, it certainly doesn't know Jesus, that comes with time. What does a new soul know about forgiveness, faith, grace, mercy, redemption, love, true peace that passeth all our understanding. A person can come to Christ, be saved and be lost!

Absolutely. I am not a new convert, and there is still probably more that I do not know than that which I do know. As we approach God, I see us as drawing ever closer to the abyss on either side of us even as we get closer to Him in front of us. The closer we are to Him when we misstep to one side or the other, the harder will be the fall and the more difficult it will be to get up and go again. Our superficial knowledge without His quickening Spirit can be the death of us. We must both eat His flesh and drink His blood daily. Only one will leave us unprepared to continue our journey in overcoming.

 

[B-A-C]

Why should we discuss OSAS? There is a danger for people who believe that they are born again. Take the parable of the 10 Virgins for a simple example....
Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Or, these verses....
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here are two cases where people thought they were saved but were not. Were they saved at one point and then fell away? Or were they never saved in the first place. A person ought to know whether they are saved or not. OSAS answers that crucial question. I know that some people are tired of this topic, but considering what I've just presented, I'd think that everyone would be excited about knowing the real truth about Salvation.

Perhaps you are right, but this brings up several questions.

1. What was the oil the 5 foolish virgins had? Why did they run out? Is the oil something unsaved people
can have?

2. The people in Matt 7... they did miracles and cast out demons. (in Jesus name)This is similar to the question I asked earlier about where does the bad fruit come from? (Which no one has answered yet).
So where did this power come from?

In Matt 10:8; Jesus tells his followers to "cast out demons".
In Matt 12:25-29; Jesus says satan doesn't cast out demons, that would be self defeating.
In 1 Cor 12:10; it says doing miracles is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

So how did these people cast out demons and do miracles?
Is this something unsaved people can do? Is it even something un-saved people would want to do?

Assuming the answer is... they were never saved. Where did they get the power to do these things?
Also assuming they were never saved. (but thought they were)..
What is the difference between someone who "thinks" they are saved, and someone who is actually saved?

 

[B-A-C]

isn't the popular John 3:16 super clear? "For God so loved the World (you and i) that he sent his only son (Jesus) that whoever believes in (trusts) shall not perish but have eternal life (life that begins from the moment you are born again)". What more can we ask for?

So OK... we can take one single verse like John 3:16; it seems many churches do.
It says if we believe in Jesus we have eternal life.
But then there are verses like Matt 19:17; that say if we keep the commandments we have eternal life.

What makes one of these verses more valid than the other? Why should we ignore one of these verses?
(There are other verses as well... I'm just using one).

 

[amadeus2]

You certainly have some wonderful thoughts there my good friend. You asked me, "Shouldn't we say that person ought to know Jesus rather than know whether or not he is saved?" Just in that opening question amadeus2, it seems that you are dissatisfied with my reasoning about the importance of knowing that a person is saved or not. Lets look at a portion of Scripture that I'd like to use as an example....

John 2:23 "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,"
2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man."

We did not come as close as we are to God by the reason of man alone. Neither has anyone else. What is in our hearts, yours and mine, is what is pleasing to God, or not. I won't change my pathway and neither will you change yours without a definite nudge from God. I believe that that's OK. The chances are that the "good thief" on the cross did not realize there could be such differences between believers and his end was too close to concern himself much with such details. Jesus however already saw the man's heart and gave him a promise. I would say he has also given each of us a promise and the final result will have little to do with this topic of conversation, or it will have much to do with it. The charity in this conversation is the key that I see, not the question of OSAS.

[quote[Now, don't you think that these so-called believers would have wanted to know about the validity of their profession so that they could have avoided the condemnation of Jesus? Hey, I think it's obvious that they desired to be a believer, they were drawn to Him and went out and tried to have works, but those works weren't good enough. Hey, Salvation is a very important part of my life.[/quote]

The flesh enjoys a place of comfort. I have a recliner where I sit down my weary bones and spend time with God. God has blessed me with such a chair where no one, not even my wife, will normally disturb me in those times with my Maker. Did they want to know their trust was worthwhile? Do I want to know that my salvation is assured? Yes, certainly, to both questions, but what is it that God expects from us? What is our part?

All of the natural Israelites were saved from the bondage in Egypt, but few made it out of the wilderness into the Promised Land. Salvation, but no salvation.

There have been times when I'm quite and meditating, the thought comes to me, what if I died and found myself away from Jesus and my loved ones, and found myself in hell. For the last 40 years of serving Jesus the Son of God, it was all a waste because apparently I didn't understand the pathway to Salvation. Let me tell you, I'll be very upset. I would have wanted to know the Truth.

In a moment when you are in communication with God you know the truth. In a moment when you've disconnected yourself from God you also know the truth. Adam and Eve were in communication with God regularly and without fear before they failed and then they hid... as if a man can hide from God. We with our born again "new man" don't have more on our side than Adam and Eve did prior to their sin, but that is where we differ, is it not? So I'll leave that, but consider the situation of the man of God out of Judah who came to King Jeroboam and prophesied and then after working a miracle by the power of God failed to stay connected to God: He was killed by a lion.

Your 40 years is not wasted as long as you continue with Him to the end. Unless God has removed your right to choose Him or not, you can stop walking with Him anytime you choose or anytime you get lazy (weary) in well doing.

As a person who is approaching the end of their life, there are very few who do not wonder whats on the other side of death. This is just human nature. For those who have been born again of the Spirit of God, there is a mixture of Joy and concern over their works that will be judged. except for the atheist, I don't believe that there is one person who doesn't want to know where they are going.

Wondering is one thing, but putting it in front of what you owe God is another, isn't it? This is my primary point, which I believe is valid whether OSAS as you see it is valid or not. What God has given us is a vision. That is a spiritual vision which every believer needs. Once final thing. Remember Jesus' words to Thomas?


"... Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29

What do you have to know rather than believe in order to move forward in Jesus? Do we not live for God by faith rather than by knowledge?

I love you my friend amandeus2, but just can't go where you're going in these reasoning's.

Thank you, friend, for bearing with me.

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Brother-Paul , with all due respect and with the most feeling of love that I can project on this page, please, I have no use for YOUR understanding and, because of it's ramifications and bondage to untruth about the power of God, I will avoid it at all cost!!

You and @Amedeus2 believe the same thing, that essentially you are saying that a true "born again"Christian can lose their salvation and I say that is impossible and living a lie.....I never have said that either of you are not saved. Amedeus2 has said that he disagrees with me and has moved on, I suggest you do the same.

Yes, and that perspective lives inside me!

Of course, you don't mind showing some scripture here, that confirms this.
While you are at it and, because you seem to insinuate that you are a "Mature Christian", would you please explain the following, so we can all benefit from that wisdom?:

My dear brother, my heart is troubled, your message comes over as one who has thrown the teddy from the pram, so to speak.

To suggest a person moves on because you don't agree with something is let me just say.....

not what I expected, can we not have a discussion in brotherly love?

Was this called for? Amedeus2 has said that he disagrees with me and has moved on, I suggest you do the same.

Seem to insinuate you are a mature Christian you say, I never have, I have always said I am open to others views of how scripture is interpreted.

As for me, I am going now, I will not look at this again until tomorrow at the earliest. We have things to put to the Lord I think brother.

Your attitude in this message does not come over as one of Love. But I may be misreading your message if so I apologise.

Peace be with you always

 

[RJ]

My dear brother, my heart is troubled, your message comes over as one who has thrown the teddy from the pram, so to speak.

To suggest a person moves on because you don't agree with something is let me just say.....

not what I expected, can we not have a discussion in brotherly love?

Was this called for? Amedeus2 has said that he disagrees with me and has moved on, I suggest you do the same.

Seem to insinuate you are a mature Christian you say, I never have, I have always said I am open to others views of how scripture is interpreted.

As for me, I am going now, I will not look at this again until tomorrow at the earliest. We have things to put to the Lord I think brother.

Your attitude in this message does not come over as one of Love. But I may be misreading your message if so I apologise.

Peace be with you always

Maybe it is misleading but, I see you didn't answer any of my scripture questions!

 

[Chopper]

Perhaps you are right, but this brings up several questions.

1. What was the oil the 5 foolish virgins had? Why did they run out? Is the oil something unsaved people
can have?

2. The people in Matt 7... they did miracles and cast out demons. (in Jesus name)This is similar to the question I asked earlier about where does the bad fruit come from? (Which no one has answered yet).
So where did this power come from?

In Matt 10:8; Jesus tells his followers to "cast out demons".
In Matt 12:25-29; Jesus says satan doesn't cast out demons, that would be self defeating.
In 1 Cor 12:10; it says doing miracles is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

So how did these people cast out demons and do miracles?
Is this something unsaved people can do? Is it even something un-saved people would want to do?

Assuming the answer is... they were never saved. Where did they get the power to do these things?
Also assuming they were never saved. (but thought they were)..
What is the difference between someone who "thinks" they are saved, and someone who is actually saved?

In all your listed people, the answer is that even though a person is unsaved. if they used the Name of Jesus, that's where the power was.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Mimi said: ↑
isn't the popular John 3:16 super clear? "For God so loved the World (you and i) that he sent his only son (Jesus) that whoever believes in (trusts) shall not perish but have eternal life (life that begins from the moment you are born again)". What more can we ask for?

So OK... we can take one single verse like John 3:16; it seems many churches do.
It says if we believe in Jesus we have eternal life.
But then there are verses like Matt 19:17; that say if we keep the commandments we have eternal life.

What makes one of these verses more valid than the other? Why should we ignore one of these verses?
(There are other verses as well... I'm just using one).

Reading single verses on their own is dangerous, it can miss the context of what is being said.

To often, I think, we quote single verses, I am guilty as the next person, we all do it.

Believing on Jesus and being saved is read and preached many times in scripture but John 3:16, I think, is a prime example of reading out of context.

Yes it is a wonderful and very powerful verse, the Gospel in miniature it was called. But look again...

John 3:16 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

PTL we are saved!!! All we have to do is believe in Jesus!

But are we saved lets read more?

John 3:18 (NKJV)
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

PTL we must be saved!

Now let us go back and read John 3:1-21, read from the first verse. Verse three gives a condition for verse 3:16

John 3:3 (NKJV)
3 Jesus answered... "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

So the one verse on its own does not tell us the full requirements of being saved. It is only when we read the section, book or Bible in context that we see the full meaning. It is only when we read in context we know if we are saved.

More can be added on this subject but I think enough has been said, a single verse may not give a true representation of what is meant to be understood, what we are being instructed or what is required of us.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Maybe it is misleading but, I see you didn't answer any of my scripture questions!

I did say that I would not reply until at least tomorrow brother.

Peace be with you.

 

[B-A-C]

In all your listed people, the answer is that even though a person is unsaved. if they used the Name of Jesus, that's where the power was.

So unsaved people have access to Jesus's power?
Perhaps the answer is yes.

But if so.. I still would ask... what's the difference between someone who "thinks" they are saved.
and someone who is actually saved?

We both believe in Jesus. We both believe he died for our sins and rose again.
Why is one of us saved, and the other "not" saved?

If there is no answer to that question... then how do you know you are saved?

 

[RJ]

We both believe in Jesus. We both believe he died for our sins and rose again.
Why is one of us saved, and the other "not" saved?

Though God is the final judge, if both feel this way, the Bible tells us they are both saved!

 

[B-A-C]

Though God is the final judge, if both feel this way, the Bible tells us they are both saved!

Would this include those in Matt 7:21-23; ?

 

[RJ]

Would this include those in Matt 7:21-23; ?

What you previously described where two believers, then the answer is No, Matthew here is talking about non-believers, those who are unsaved!

 

[RJ]

I did say that I would not reply until at least tomorrow brother.

Peace be with you.

O.K., take your time, I still await you understanding of those scriptures!

 

[B-A-C]

What you previously described where two believers, then the answer is No, Matthew here is talking about non-believers, those who are unsaved!

Matt 7:21; “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

I am not following your logic here. How can they be unbelievers if they are calling Jesus "Lord, Lord".
How can they be unbelievers, if they believed that cast out demons in Jesus's name? How can they do miracles if they don't believe they can in Jesus's name?

They may not be saved... (obviously they aren't)
But they are obviously believers.

Now there are many reason why this might be.
Believing in the wrong Jesus (another subject). I believe this would be Mormon's, Jehovah Witnesses,
and possibly some Roman Catholics.

But there are some people, when you ask them in depth questions about Jesus....
they believe exactly as you believe. They will answer every question exactly the same way you answer it.
And then... later in their life.... they give up. They go back to a sinful life.

So maybe they were never saved in the first place.... but what determines that?
Is it something you can't know until you're dead? Maybe I'm a good Christian for 50 years.
Then I go back to the sinful life. So I was never saved. But during that 50 years, I would be
believing I was.

 

[Chopper]

So unsaved people have access to Jesus's power?
Perhaps the answer is yes.

But if so.. I still would ask... what's the difference between someone who "thinks" they are saved.
and someone who is actually saved?

We both believe in Jesus. We both believe he died for our sins and rose again.
Why is one of us saved, and the other "not" saved?

If there is no answer to that question... then how do you know you are saved?

Your answer is here my friend....
1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

 

[RJ]

I am not following your logic here. How can they be unbelievers if they are calling Jesus "Lord, Lord".
How can they be unbeliev

I know, our logic definitely conflicts.
Right now, I have a good way to answer, by a question: Are you saying, right now, everyone in every church, across the world, who currently say "Lord-Lord" are true believers and saved?

How can they be unbelievers, if they believed that cast out demons in Jesus's name? How can they do miracles if they don't believe they can in Jesus's name?

Significantly, you will just have to ask Jesus about this someday, I certainly don't have all answers but, I think a clue is later in your Matthew quote: Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Regardless what we might think here, Jesus considers these people unbelievers!

They may not be saved... (obviously they aren't)
But they are obviously believers.

Sorry, that is a bit of a deli-ma with your thinking, it is Biblically impossible to be a believer and unsaved. ...I used to know of God, now I know God!

So maybe they were never saved in the first place.... but what determines that?

You got it!......The determination has never changed, "Born Again" Christ in you = saved! Not "Born Again" Christ not in you = not saved!

Is it something you can't know until you're dead? Maybe I'm a good Christian for 50 years.

Yes you can:
Luke23:13 “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise”
Jesus assured the thief on the cross, he offers you the same assurance!
1 John 5:13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Do you believe solely in God's work alone or do you feel you must do something and just don't know if you have done enough?
Ephesians 2:8-9
Either you fully believe in God's word or you don't!