OSAS - Cruise Control

[B-A-C]

Most of the cars I've had over the past few years have something called cruise control on them.
It's nice because I have a bad habit of going faster and faster without really noticing it until I
hear sirens behind me. There have even been times when I was day-dreaming or distracted and
started driving "too-slow". Maybe not for the law, but at least too slow for the people behind me
who were giving me their ummm... "polite" opinion of my driving.

But even cruise control requires some input from the driver every now and then. For example
it doesn't steer itself yet. Perhaps the day will come when cars can drive themselves, but we aren't there yet.

Does being a Christian require any effort from us?
Or can we just turn "cruise control" and sit back and let Jesus take care of it all?

Yes... this is ultimately another "Once Saved Always Saved" thread.
I hope anyone replying on this thread would seriously stop and pray before they post something.
Not necessarily that God will "change that other person's mind about how right I obviously am".
But rather, that whatever is said here, would be said in love. Without accusations, without name calling,
and without negative connotations towards anyone's character.

I sometimes see moderators ask if a particular discussion "gives God glory" or "edifies other believers".
I think it's great they do that. Maybe we can ask ourselves before each reply we make; that same question.

 

[B-A-C]

An often quoted verse talks about the vine and the branches.

This is generally taken from John 15:1-11;

Particularly verses 4 and 5.

John 15:4; Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
John 15:5; I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
John 15:6; If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

We can't do anything without Jesus. We can't make any fruit without Jesus.
I would agree with that.

But just because we can make fruit... does that mean it is good fruit?
( Matt 7:17-18; Matt 12:33; Luke 6:43; )

The fact is... some trees produce bad fruit. So the question becomes... where did the bad fruit come from?
No question the good fruit comes from Jesus.

But what about the bad fruit? If we can't produce anything or do anything without Jesus... then how
did they make the bad fruit? Did Jesus cause the bad fruit to happen?

Or... does Jesus just supply the nourishment to the branches, but is it up to each branch ("tree")
to bear good fruit or bad fruit.

The Bible also says some trees bear no fruit. Now this could be because they were never tapped into the
vine in the first place. Or... it could be that even though they are tapped into the vine... they still do not
produce fruit. In Luke 13:6-9; we see a tree tended by the Master (Jesus) and even fertilized by the master.
But yet it doesn't bear fruit.

 

[B-A-C]

Another often quoted passage comes from Romans 8.

Rom 8:35; Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
Rom 8:36; Just as it is written,
“For Your sake we are being put to death all day long;
We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
Rom 8:37; But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

One thing to notice about the verses above... they are about Jesus's love for us. It's about the apostle's love for
Jesus.

Rom 8:38; For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39; nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

OK... so these verses DO talk about His love for us. But does God love the un-saved?
Well Rom 5:8; says God loved us even when were sinners.

Did Jesus love the Pharisee's? Did He love Judas? Did He love the Roman soldiers that crucified Him?
I believe He did. But does that mean all of these people were saved just because Jesus loved them?

 

[B-A-C]

Another popular verse used to support OSAS is in Hebrews 13.

Heb 13:5; Make sure that your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have; for He Himself has said, “I will never desert you, nor will I ever forsake you,”
Heb 13:6; so that we confidently say, “The Lord is my helper, I will not be afraid. What will man do to me?”

An interesting context here. Don't love money too much... be content with what you have...
Because "He has said"... hmmm... where did He say this?
The Lord is my helper...

Could it be this passage is not really about salvation? That it saying don't put your trust in money,
but your trust in God. Because he has promised to take care of you.

I asked... where did He say this? Well it's no where in the New testament.
We have to go all the way back to Deut 31:6-8; to find this... God is promising the Israelites
as they are wondering around the desert "that I will never leave you or forsake you".

However just 8 verses later, it says that some of the Israelites did forsake God. ( Deut 31:16; )

Some people say... you can't use a passage from the old testament to argue against OSAS.
Well perhaps... but isn't the verse that Heb 13:5 is quoting from the old testament?

So does that mean we can't use Hebrews 13:5; to support OSAS either?

This is also repeated by God in Joshua 1:5;
In Nehemiah 9, a lot of this is covered again... specifically in Nehemiah 9:17; Neh 9:19; and Neh 9:31;
It says God did not leave or forsake the Israelites as they were traveling through the wilderness.

He took care of them. Gave them manna to eat in the day time. A cloud over their heads to protect
them from the harsh sun. He made sure their clothes didn't wear out. He parted the red-sea for them.
He killed the Egyptian soldiers for them.

But even though God didn't forsake them. Some of them forsook Him. As a result of this, none of the
Israelites of that generation were able to enter into the promised land.

Could it be that even though God doesn't leave or forsake us. We can leave and forsake Him?
Can it be that even though he never leaves us and always takes care of us... that doesn't mean
we will reach the final destination He wants for us?

 

[B-A-C]

There is of course... the argument of "why have the argument"?

For example... atheists believe there is no God.
OK... fine that they believe that. But why do they feel the need to make the rest of us believe that?
If there is no God... what does it matter if I believe in Him or not? Why would you care if you don't
believe He exists anyway.

It's sort of the same with "once saved, always saved". OK... fine that some believe that, but what does
it hurt if I don't believe it? I mean if my salvation is guaranteed no matter what... then what difference
does it make whether everyone believes it or not? How does it hurt anything if some do not believe in it?

On the other hand... if salvation is not guaranteed no matter what... then maybe it's right for these
people to be concerned about it.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Dear brother thank you for starting this thread, so as to keep the discussion in one place.

Rom 8:38; For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
Rom 8:39; nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

OK... so these verses DO talk about His love for us. But does God love the un-saved?
Well Rom 5:8; says God loved us even when were sinners.

God loves the sinner but not the sin. He calls us when we are sinners, but then we have to do something, if we do not accept Christ and repent of our sins we remain lost souls. God may carry on loving us as sinners, He calls us we do not call Him, He knows whose name is and will be in the Lambs Book of Life.

He took care of them. Gave them manna to eat in the day time. A cloud over their heads to protect
them from the harsh sun. He made sure their clothes didn't wear out. He parted the red-sea for them.
He killed the Egyptian soldiers for them.

But even though God didn't forsake them. Some of them forsook Him.

God will never stop loving us, God is Love, but this doesn't mean we are saved. So many verses in scripture confirm God's love for us, it is an unfailing love, an everlasting love, He doesn't want anyone to be lost.

There appear to be many arguments for 'Once Saved Always Saved' and some seem to stand up as feasible, especially when the question is asked was the soul saved in the first place. The honest answer, what ever we believe, has to be we do not know and will not know this side of eternity.

But, taking those arguments on board and looking for scripture for or against the OSAS argument, I say argument because we do not know if a soul that is considered lost was saved in the first place, I have to ask a question; why would Jesus give us John 15 other than to get the message over to us we MUST abide in Him, we MUST bear fruit, we MUST Believe in Him, if we don't the father will prune out the 'withering branches' gather them and throw them on the fire.

John 15:1-6 (NKJV)
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

A grapevine branch can survive and produce foliage for a while after it has been severed, but it cannot produce fruit unless it is connected to a root stock. As Jesus had a living dependence on the Father, [see John 6:47] so believers in Jesus need to have a living dependence on him.

John 6:47 (NKJV)
47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

(He who believes, not he who has fallen away, he who no longer believes, 'Most Assuredly' Jesus says)

They cannot bear fruit without being connected to the vine.

We cannot bear fruit, or remain in the vine unless Jesus is in us, unless we abide in Him and He in us.

Therefore, it is essential that they completely trust Jesus, or they will not be connected to the source of life. [John 15:6]

John 6:53-58 (NKJV)
53 Then Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed.
56 He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
58 This is the bread which came down from heaven--not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever."

For a person who has fallen away from our Lord, he no longer abides in Him so Jesus cannot abide in the person.

The person who was believed but now does not no longer abides in Christ, he/she 'no longer eats My flesh and drinks My blood', says Jesus, he/she is no longer fruitful and is pruned from the vine, 'cut off' from the life giving source!

John 15:1-2 (NKJV)
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

John 15:6 (NKJV)
6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

God will never stop loving us, both the coin has two sides, we have to accept Jesus to be saved, we have to 'remain in Him' to be saved. If we are not in Him we are lost. Is salt any good if it has lost its saltiness? No, it is thrown out.

 

[Ellie]

John 15:4; Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
John 15:5; I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
John 15:6; If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

We can't do anything without Jesus. We can't make any fruit without Jesus.
I would agree with that.

But just because we can make fruit... does that mean it is good fruit?
( Matt 7:17-18; Matt 12:33; Luke 6:43; )

The fact is... some trees produce bad fruit. So the question becomes... where did the bad fruit come from?
No question the good fruit comes from Jesus.

But what about the bad fruit? If we can't produce anything or do anything without Jesus... then how
did they make the bad fruit? Did Jesus cause the bad fruit to happen?

Or... does Jesus just supply the nourishment to the branches, but is it up to each branch ("tree")
to bear good fruit or bad fruit.

That is a good question!!! Does anyone know enough about trees to answer this? I know at times I have seen some of our trees have a branch or two that were just not producing, and sometimes even produced but the fruit was "bad" rotten before it even developed. ....but, was still part of the vine/tree so...... hmmmm.

 

[Chopper]

Why should we discuss OSAS? There is a danger for people who believe that they are born again. Take the parable of the 10 Virgins for a simple example....
Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Or, these verses....
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here are two cases where people thought they were saved but were not. Were they saved at one point and then fell away? Or were they never saved in the first place. A person ought to know whether they are saved or not. OSAS answers that crucial question. I know that some people are tired of this topic, but considering what I've just presented, I'd think that everyone would be excited about knowing the real truth about Salvation.

Actually, the knowledge of true Salvation tends to keep people from sinning. Knowledge of Salvation is critical for the one who is facing death. Because no one has ever come up with a solid theology on the different aspects of God's plan for His Children, those who will never loose their Salvation. Those who are saved but can loose their Salvation, and those who are saved but have to do something to keep their Salvation. There are these three aspects of God's plan.

I have studied this topic for years, prayed for understanding, like Solomon, I wanted God's wisdom, knowledge and understanding so that I could teach others TRUTH, not denominational traditions.

Now, I understand that John Calvin's doctrine's are taboo here at "Talk Jesus". Although I don't teach what he taught, I come close to it. Actually, I point out what Calvin did not include. So, I don't defend Calvinism, I defend my own theology that has come to me thru prayer and revelation. If allowed in this Forum, I will submit my teaching for the examination of all, especially the Administration.

 

[Mimi]

Once saved is always saved ie if you trust in nothing else but Jesus blood and righteous as what saves you.
Jesus said, nothing absolutely nothing can snatch them from my hands (John 10:28) and isn't the popular John 3:16 super clear? "For God so loved the World (you and i) that he sent his only son (Jesus) that whoever believes in (trusts) shall not perish but have eternal life (life that begins from the moment you are born again)". What more can we ask for?

 

[Brother-Paul]

Why should we discuss OSAS? There is a danger for people who believe that they are born again. Take the parable of the 10 Virgins for a simple example....
Matthew 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Or, these verses....
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here are two cases where people thought they were saved but were not. Were they saved at one point and then fell away? Or were they never saved in the first place. A person ought to know whether they are saved or not. OSAS answers that crucial question. I know that some people are tired of this topic, but considering what I've just presented, I'd think that everyone would be excited about knowing the real truth about Salvation.

Actually, the knowledge of true Salvation tends to keep people from sinning. Knowledge of Salvation is critical for the one who is facing death. Because no one has ever come up with a solid theology on the different aspects of God's plan for His Children, those who will never loose their Salvation. Those who are saved but can loose their Salvation, and those who are saved but have to do something to keep their Salvation. There are these three aspects of God's plan.

I have studied this topic for years, prayed for understanding, like Solomon, I wanted God's wisdom, knowledge and understanding so that I could teach others TRUTH, not denominational traditions.

Now, I understand that John Calvin's doctrine's are taboo here at "Talk Jesus". Although I don't teach what he taught, I come close to it. Actually, I point out what Calvin did not include. So, I don't defend Calvinism, I defend my own theology that has come to me thru prayer and revelation. If allowed in this Forum, I will submit my teaching for the examination of all, especially the Administration.

Bless you brother... and yes I am excited :thumbsup:

When I read the messages for OSAS, they all appear come over the same way. I understand why and it could be said the argument is on the right side of the fence... so to speak. As I read the messages to me they all appear to say, 'I cannot see God losing any soul, particularly a saves one', they cannot see God losing any soul, as He doesn't want any to be lost. On that basis they say the person could not have been saved in the first place. It seems an excellent assumption, I think, one we cannot prove this side of eternity and when we get to heaven it will be history. But this argument, I prefer to say belief, although seeming a good one , based on the above way of thinking, is only looking the question from one prospective, God doesn't want any one to be lost. On the other hand, it is true He may not want a soul to be lost, but He called us we had to accept Him, He doesn't want us to be lost but that is down to... one could say us but it is not just down to us.

We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but principalities and powers, satan prowls like an angry lion, waiting to devour anyone who has come to the Lord. We must be on our guard at all times, wise as serpents and harmless as doves, we are even told to wear the whole armour of God, but a lot may also depend on where the seed was sown in the first place, the ground the seed landed on, it is no use giving meat to those on milk, they do could die. Some never get past the milk stage but they were saved, they are sitting ducks to fall away, prime targets for the enemy of souls!

I believe, without doubt, once saved always saved is not true to scripture, I thank you also brother Chopper for taking us further with the two verses you have added above. Bless you my friend.

Thinking once saved always saved on the basis God doesn't want to lose one soul, is one sided thinking I believe, is like thinking God is Love and would do nothing but love us. He does love us, He loves all mankind but hates the sin. But scripture is full from Genesis to Revelations of what God has had to do due to unbelief of people, it is also full of warnings from end time through the tribulation periods up to Jesus return in great glory, of the consequences of not accepting the creator and His son into our hearts.

Once saved never look back I think would be a much better term. Keep our eyes on Jesus and give God the Glory.

 

[Chopper]

Bless you brother... and yes I am excited :thumbsup:

When I read the messages for OSAS, they all appear come over the same way. I understand why and it could be said the argument is on the right side of the fence... so to speak. As I read the messages to me they all appear to say, 'I cannot see God losing any soul, particularly a saves one', they cannot see God losing any soul, as He doesn't want any to be lost. On that basis they say the person could not have been saved in the first place. It seems an excellent assumption, I think, one we cannot prove this side of eternity and when we get to heaven it will be history. But this argument, I prefer to say belief, although seeming a good one , based on the above way of thinking, is only looking the question from one prospective, God doesn't want any one to be lost. On the other hand, it is true He may not want a soul to be lost, but He called us we had to accept Him, He doesn't want us to be lost but that is down to... one could say us but it is not just down to us.

We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but principalities and powers, satan prowls like an angry lion, waiting to devour anyone who has come to the Lord. We must be on our guard at all times, wise as serpents and harmless as doves, we are even told to wear the whole armour of God, but a lot may also depend on where the seed was sown in the first place, the ground the seed landed on, it is no use giving meat to those on milk, they do could die. Some never get past the milk stage but they were saved, they are sitting ducks to fall away, prime targets for the enemy of souls!

I believe, without doubt, once saved always saved is not true to scripture, I thank you also brother Chopper for taking us further with the two verses you have added above. Bless you my friend.

Thinking once saved always saved on the basis God doesn't want to lose one soul, is one sided thinking I believe, is like thinking God is Love and would do nothing but love us. He does love us, He loves all mankind but hates the sin. But scripture is full from Genesis to Revelations of what God has had to do due to unbelief of people, it is also full of warnings from end time through the tribulation periods up to Jesus return in great glory, of the consequences of not accepting the creator and His son into our hearts.

Once saved never look back I think would be a much better term. Keep our eyes on Jesus and give Good the Glory.

Amen Brother and good friend. I was just studying Revelation. Perhaps the reason I'm so blessed is because I study, and re-study Revelation about every 3 months. Look at this....

Revelation 3:11 "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

Just look what's waiting for us. Is that great? Or what.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Jeremiah said it rightly when he wrote. Which for me is a comfort.

Heal me, O LORD, and I will be healed;Save me and I will be saved,For You are my praise. Jeremiah 17:14

For if I would personalize it through Christ Jesus. I would say. You are my praise whether I am healed or saved. It cannot be any other way that I walk upon Mercy's way.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I don't subscribe to either side of the argument because there are to many flaws in both.
After 28 years of research,prayer and contemplation I have come to the realization that I don't know exactly what scripture describes.
That leads me to believe that the answer is something we have not yet considered.

Example:
John 5:24"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Can anyone explain how this works?
The resurrection does not seem to fit in well with traditional views of modern Christianity.
I feel that I really don't fully understand half of what Jesus said.

I have come to question whether we are using all these words correctly.
I don't think we are using the term "saved" (which can be used in many ways) correctly.

I got tired of modifying belief systems every time I learn something so I now just have a belief goal and that is to believe on the one whom God sent.
John 6:29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

 

[amadeus2]

Here are two cases where people thought they were saved but were not. Were they saved at one point and then fell away? Or were they never saved in the first place. A person ought to know whether they are saved or not. OSAS answers that crucial question. I know that some people are tired of this topic, but considering what I've just presented, I'd think that everyone would be excited about knowing the real truth about Salvation.

Actually, the knowledge of true Salvation tends to keep people from sinning. Knowledge of Salvation is critical for the one who is facing death. Because no one has ever come up with a solid theology on the different aspects of God's plan for His Children, those who will never loose their Salvation. Those who are saved but can loose their Salvation, and those who are saved but have to do something to keep their Salvation. There are these three aspects of God's plan.

Shouldn't we say that person ought to know Jesus rather than know whether or not he is saved? Really knowing Jesus, rather than simply knowing about him, is an important thing, is it not? Jesus spoke repeatedly of having "ears to hear". He also spoke of the importance being able to see, but as with the hearing Jesus was ultimate not speaking of the ability of a person to make use of those two natural senses, was he? It was much more important than that:

"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them." Matt 3:16-17

To see what and to hear what ... 'that I am saved'? I think not. On a personal level the fact of salvation may be important, but how important should it be? Isn't our desire to be saved when it comes down to it a very selfish desire? What is the opposite of selfish? The apostle Paul expresses here what I believe it to be:

"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:" Phil 2:3-5

Paul's description to me describes the ways of a humble person. Is this not what Jesus was? Did he in the end of the matter care more for the lives of others than for his own life of flesh?

Salvation? To me according to what I read in scripture, salvation is a reward to those are faithful to the end. It is a reward to those who have overcome as Jesus overcame... but salvation should not be our goal. If it is, it is a selfish goal. Is the not the mind of Christ to please God, while a person whose goal is to save little ole me from pain and suffering and death and to enjoy pleasures for evermore is a selfish goal.

What reward did Jesus obtain from his sacrifice? Salvation? Jesus had a reward, but it was not salvation. Jesus came and saw the ways of men and "Jesus wept". Why was it that Enoch was translated?

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." Heb 11:5

He pleased God and he certainly did not do it by selfishly pursuing salvation but rather by doing whatever he could to, I believe, to "esteem other better than self".

Do we wish to obtain the rewards promised to overcomers in Revelation chapters 2 & 3? Then we had better check ourselves with God as to what we have to overcome to obtain them.

Salvation before we have overcome all of the world? Jesus overcame the world and made it possible for us to do the same, but it remains for us to do it with the tools provided...

While Jesus was here, He said,

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." John 9:4

Have we not also been sent? Are we not also to work while it is day? Sitting back and saying "I am already an overcomer" does not make it so.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Shouldn't we say that person ought to know Jesus rather than know whether or not he is saved? Really knowing Jesus, rather than simply knowing about him, is an important thing, is it not?

I agree Brother. For what is Eternal Life for?
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Some are closer than others, but all are being purified in and by His Word who is also the Christ.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
"Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. John 17:17

This is the love and joy you Brothers & Sisters bring me as I continued reading amazed at how much you seek to know Him all the more!

I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. John 17:23
"and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them." John 17:26

YBIC
C4E
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[Brother-Paul]

I believe that is wrong minded. I can't say about you but, for me, I will not return to my vomit, please keep me separated from this statement. Those who return to their vomit are another example of non-believers, those who have not been born anew spiritually yet!

Taken from post 159 in 'The Law or Not the Law that is the question' Posted here as the subject relates in reply to OSAS.

I think before us is the key to starting to understanding OSAS RJ.

I can't say about you but, for me, I will not return to my vomit

You dear brother are saved and growing in faith, but we are all at different stages. Our dear brother Amedeus2 is growing in faith also, we all are.

But the argument OSAS from the perspective of, God loves us and does not want one soul to be lost, when looked at from a mature Christian point of view, we will not go back to the old self, we are saved, we are in Christ, Christ is in us. But there are others, which we are warned about, who accepted Christ, so are saved, but have never grown past the milk stage. These vulnerable souls, need a Church, need nurturing, need feeding the Word. Faith comes by hearing. God takes us as we are and moulds us to be the people He wants us to be, we grow in faith or we do not grown in faith.

Now when we take our eyes of our own view regarding OSAS, and look at these vulnerable souls which if they do not grow in faith they will wither! They are as scripture tells us... grafted into the vine when they accept Christ but can be cut from the vine and burned if they fail and do not bear fruit. They are the souls that fall in stony ground or in thorns, they do not have roots near a stream, when the sun comes they wither. They are not rooted in their faith, babies do not understand they have to be taught. But for every soul that is saved the angels in heaven rejoice and the devil lights his fiery darts and prowls to devour them.

OSAS is not correct thinking, a Saved soul can be lost and scripture confirms it in many locations.

Shalom brother.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Shouldn't we say that person ought to know Jesus rather than know whether or not he is saved? Really knowing Jesus, rather than simply knowing about him, is an important thing, is it not? Jesus spoke repeatedly of having "ears to hear". He also spoke of the importance being able to see, but as with the hearing Jesus was ultimate not speaking of the ability of a person to make use of those two natural senses, was he? It was much more important than that:

"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

A person ought to know Jesus brother but, does this not also come with time. If I met you face to face I would see you, even if we have an afternoon together and a meal a nice chat and a laugh, we would not know one another. First we accept a person, then we get to know someone.

God calls us whilst we are still sinners, unworthy to be called, but He calls us. When we accept Jesus we probably accept Him based on what we are told we certainly do not accept him because we know him, at that stage we certainly don't know him. Hence the milk comes first, faith comes by hearing, if we are not fed we will wither and die, go back to the old self.

There is without doubt, I think, a fine line when we try to understand OSAS. The argument will always remain was a person saved in the first place, but I believe there is a stronger argument, based on scripture, that a person can be saved, not bear fruit, not be fed the Word, not have fellowship with born-gain believers, not have sufficient prayer, that they were the seed sown on stony ground and left there, lacking food and water so they return to the old self. The only thing they knew!

In the example lies a serious message, I think, do not bring a soul to Christ and leave it to fend for itself.

What does a new soul know about Jesus, it certainly doesn't know Jesus, that comes with time. What does a new soul know about forgiveness, faith, grace, mercy, redemption, love, true peace that passeth all our understanding. A person can come to Christ, be saved and be lost!

 

[Brother-Paul]

Amen Brother and good friend. I was just studying Revelation. Perhaps the reason I'm so blessed is because I study, and re-study Revelation about every 3 months. Look at this....

Revelation 3:11 "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name."

Just look what's waiting for us. Is that great? Or what.

Bless you my friend

Revelation is a wonderful book, we shared recently, where is Heaven? We talked a lot about it, there is so much to talk about. But, then stopped as John saw the New Jerusalem coming down onto the new earth, our earth resurrected as we will be resurrected also, all things made new. But there is an abundance of wonderful information to follow that, the size of the New Jerusalem, the light in the New Jerusalem, the river that runs through it... to God himself. The trees on either side of the water and so much more. Maybe another time we can not just see the New Jerusalem come down but also explore the wonders that await us, the place born again believers will go, the place those whose name is in the Lambs Book of Life will go, a new heaven and a new earth, resurrected heaven and earth, we will be with our Lord forever with our new resurrected bodies... it really will be heaven brother.

 

[Chopper]

Shouldn't we say that person ought to know Jesus rather than know whether or not he is saved? Really knowing Jesus, rather than simply knowing about him, is an important thing, is it not? Jesus spoke repeatedly of having "ears to hear". He also spoke of the importance being able to see, but as with the hearing Jesus was ultimate not speaking of the ability of a person to make use of those two natural senses, was he? It was much more important than that:

"But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them." Matt 3:16-17

To see what and to hear what ... 'that I am saved'? I think not. On a personal level the fact of salvation may be important, but how important should it be? Isn't our desire to be saved when it comes down to it a very selfish desire? What is the opposite of selfish? The apostle Paul expresses here what I believe it to be:

"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:" Phil 2:3-5

Paul's description to me describes the ways of a humble person. Is this not what Jesus was? Did he in the end of the matter care more for the lives of others than for his own life of flesh?

Salvation? To me according to what I read in scripture, salvation is a reward to those are faithful to the end. It is a reward to those who have overcome as Jesus overcame... but salvation should not be our goal. If it is, it is a selfish goal. Is the not the mind of Christ to please God, while a person whose goal is to save little ole me from pain and suffering and death and to enjoy pleasures for evermore is a selfish goal.

What reward did Jesus obtain from his sacrifice? Salvation? Jesus had a reward, but it was not salvation. Jesus came and saw the ways of men and "Jesus wept". Why was it that Enoch was translated?

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God." Heb 11:5

He pleased God and he certainly did not do it by selfishly pursuing salvation but rather by doing whatever he could to, I believe, to "esteem other better than self".

Do we wish to obtain the rewards promised to overcomers in Revelation chapters 2 & 3? Then we had better check ourselves with God as to what we have to overcome to obtain them.

Salvation before we have overcome all of the world? Jesus overcame the world and made it possible for us to do the same, but it remains for us to do it with the tools provided...

While Jesus was here, He said,

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." John 9:4

Have we not also been sent? Are we not also to work while it is day? Sitting back and saying "I am already an overcomer" does not make it so.

You certainly have some wonderful thoughts there my good friend. You asked me, "Shouldn't we say that person ought to know Jesus rather than know whether or not he is saved?" Just in that opening question amadeus2, it seems that you are dissatisfied with my reasoning about the importance of knowing that a person is saved or not. Lets look at a portion of Scripture that I'd like to use as an example....

John 2:23 "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men,"
2:25 And needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man."

Now, don't you think that these so-called believers would have wanted to know about the validity of their profession so that they could have avoided the condemnation of Jesus? Hey, I think it's obvious that they desired to be a believer, they were drawn to Him and went out and tried to have works, but those works weren't good enough. Hey, Salvation is a very important part of my life.

There have been times when I'm quite and meditating, the thought comes to me, what if I died and found myself away from Jesus and my loved ones, and found myself in hell. For the last 40 years of serving Jesus the Son of God, it was all a waste because apparently I didn't understand the pathway to Salvation. Let me tell you, I'll be very upset. I would have wanted to know the Truth.

As a person who is approaching the end of their life, there are very few who do not wonder whats on the other side of death. This is just human nature. For those who have been born again of the Spirit of God, there is a mixture of Joy and concern over their works that will be judged. except for the atheist, I don't believe that there is one person who doesn't want to know where they are going.

I love you my friend amandeus2, but just can't go where you're going in these reasoning's.

 

[Chopper]

Bless you my friend

Revelation is a wonderful book, we shared recently, where is Heaven? We talked a lot about it, there is so much to talk about. But, then stopped as John saw the New Jerusalem coming down onto the new earth, our earth resurrected as we will be resurrected also, all things made new. But there is an abundance of wonderful information to follow that, the size of the New Jerusalem, the light in the New Jerusalem, the river that runs through it... to God himself. The trees on either side of the water and so much more. Maybe another time we can not just see the New Jerusalem come down but also explore the wonders that await us, the place born again believers will go, the place those whose name is in the Lambs Book of Life will go, a new heaven and a new earth, resurrected heaven and earth, we will be with our Lord forever with our new resurrected bodies... it really will be heaven brother.

What a delight it is to read/study your posts Brother-Paul. I just got a nudge from the Holy Spirit that I should receive you as a special Brother. It's a strange feeling of peace that you and I are Ok and I can put my confidence in you, and what you have to say. I don't get that with only a few people. RJ is one of them.

So, thank you for who you are, apparently, the Lord is pleased with you, of which I'm blessed for you being in my circle of close friends.