OSAS - Cruise Control

[B-A-C]

Matt 24:42; “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
Matt 24:43; But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.
Matt 24:44; For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Matt 24:45 “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?
Matt 24:46 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
Matt 24:47 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.
Matt 24:48 But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’
Matt 24:49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;
Matt 24:50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,
Matt 24:51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Is someone who is un-saved in the master's house? Would the master put an un-saved person in charge of
His household? Only slaves have a master. Our master is Jesus. We better be doing what He told
us to do when He left.

==============================================================================================

We see this same parable in Luke 12.

Luke 12:46; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
Luke 12:47; And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
Luke 12:48; but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

It's interesting that Jesus considers this slave a believer. But yet if he is found being disobedient,
he will be "assigned a place, with the unbelievers". I notice it doesn't say "as an unbeliever, it says "with" the unbelievers.

=============================================================

... there are several more ...

 

[Chopper]

Oh that one foot in the grave and one on a banana peel even out-dates you! You may live to a 100, what are you going to do between now and then???:laugh::laugh:

O poop!!

 

[Mimi]

So OK... we can take one single verse like John 3:16; it seems many churches do.
It says if we believe in Jesus we have eternal life.
But then there are verses like Matt 19:17; that say if we keep the commandments we have eternal life.

What makes one of these verses more valid than the other? Why should we ignore one of these verses?
(There are other verses as well... I'm just using one).

It's interesting that a 'single verse' is called out with another single verse.

But to the point, yes to gain eternal life one has to keep the commandments 100% so there is no contradiction or challenge with both scriptures.
The important thing is, we know (or don't know) we can't do it on our own! Which Jesus tried to point out in that Matt verse. Same story through out the bible.
Hence, Jesus died and rose to make it possible for us to 'keep the commandments' via our trust in him.
Jesus becomes righteousness for us (100% law kept) . We live in him, he in us through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Mimi]

Mimi said: ↑
isn't the popular John 3:16 super clear? "For God so loved the World (you and i) that he sent his only son (Jesus) that whoever believes in (trusts) shall not perish but have eternal life (life that begins from the moment you are born again)". What more can we ask for?



Reading single verses on their own is dangerous, it can miss the context of what is being said.

To often, I think, we quote single verses, I am guilty as the next person, we all do it.

Believing on Jesus and being saved is read and preached many times in scripture but John 3:16, I think, is a prime example of reading out of context.

Yes it is a wonderful and very powerful verse, the Gospel in miniature it was called. But look again...

John 3:16 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

PTL we are saved!!! All we have to do is believe in Jesus!

But are we saved lets read more?

John 3:18 (NKJV)
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

PTL we must be saved!

Now let us go back and read John 3:1-21, read from the first verse. Verse three gives a condition for verse 3:16

John 3:3 (NKJV)
3 Jesus answered... "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

So the one verse on its own does not tell us the full requirements of being saved. It is only when we read the section, book or Bible in context that we see the full meaning. It is only when we read in context we know if we are saved.

More can be added on this subject but I think enough has been said, a single verse may not give a true representation of what is meant to be understood, what we are being instructed or what is required of us.

I don't think the single verse is an issue. The verses that come before and after only reinforce it. Trust in Christ!

 

[RJ]

Can someone who has never been saved be "enlightened" by God?

Nope

Can an unsaved person claim to have "tasted the heavenly gift"?

Just because they claim it, doesn't make it true.

Can an unsaved person be a "partaker" of the Holy Spirit?

Probably not!
Hebrews 6:4 is more of an allegory rather than a description of a real even.....the opposite is the truth a true believer does not fall away!
In the day of this Epistle, the church was full of Apostates, those who claimed to be Christian but did not believe an continued to participate in temple sacrifices!

 

[B-A-C]

Heb 12:1; Therefore, since we have so many people watching to see how we live our lives, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2; fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3; For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against Himself, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
Heb 12:4; You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
Heb 12:5; and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,

So we see that sin can easily "entangle us". We should be laying aside those things which weigh us down
and keep us from running the good race. People are watching us. They are checking to see if a "Christian"
life is any different from their life.

Jesus was our example. He "endured" the cross and faced shame and humility.
Being a Christian takes endurance. Just like running a race takes endurance.
Some are tempted to "grow weary and lose heart". Some even do grow weary, and lose....
(the race)
We are supposed to be resisting sin, we are supposed to be striving against sin. If we have
given up, and are no longer "resisting" and "striving" against sin.... then we aren't even in the race.

========================================================================================

2nd Peter, chapter 2 starts off with ...

2 Pet 2:1; But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 Pet 2:2; Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
2 Pet 2:3; and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

Now this thread isn't really about false teachers per se... but it is about "destructive heresies".
I've included the verses above to set the context for the verses below.

2nd Peter chapter 2 end with these verses....

2 Pet 2:17; These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
2 Pet 2:18; For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
2 Pet 2:19; promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
2 Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2 Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2 Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A dog returns to its own vomit,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”.

So we see there are false teachers, who will preach "it's all about freedom". It seems this is one of those
"heresies". They will teach things like, once you are saved... there is no longer anything to worry about.

But Peter says... once they have escaped the defilements of the world... (can someone who was never
saved do that?) by the knowledge of Jesus Christ... they become entangled once again in sinful living.

It says their last state is worse than it was before they got saved.
It would have been better for them to have never been saved in the first place... than to have been saved,
and turn away from it.

Sometimes... a dog will return to it's vomit (sinful way of living) , and a pig will return to it's pig sty.

... to be continued ...

 

[B-A-C]

Hebrews 6:4 is more of an allegory rather than a description of a real even.....the opposite is the truth a true believer does not fall away!
In the day of this Epistle, the church was full of Apostates, those who claimed to be Christian but did not believe an continued to participate in temple sacrifices!

This is exactly the opposite of what it says.

Heb 6:4; or in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away,....

It doesn't say they "claimed" to be enlightened, it doesn't say they "said" they had partook of the Holy Spirit".
It says they "did" these things.... and then "fell away".

 

[RJ]

Some are tempted to "grow weary and lose heart". Some even do grow weary, and lose....
(the race)

As I am sure you can! With all respect and out of love, I encourage you to rethink your position....Do not put so much value in what you will do and your power but thank God for what he has done and give him all the glory for your salvation!

 

[RJ]

This is exactly the opposite of what it says.

Heb 6:4; or in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away,....

It doesn't say they "claimed" to be enlightened, it doesn't say they "said" they had partook of the Holy Spirit".
It says they "did" these things.... and then "fell away".

I am afraid you didn't listen to a thing I said. It is not about what you do and your power but, that of God and his grace alone!

 

[B-A-C]

I encourage you to rethink your position....Do not put so much value in what you will do and your power

Believe me... I don't put "so much value" in what I do. I think it's 99% Jesus.. but I believe it is at least 1%
what we do. I have given literally hundreds of verses stating exactly this.

As for "rethinking my position".. again I would ask why it matters so much?
If I can't lose my salvation no matter what... then what difference does it make?
Ok... so maybe the kiddie pool is only 3 inches deep, and I can't drown in it... but what does
it hurt if I wear a life preserver? How does that hurt anyone?

On the other hand, if we can lose our salvation... we need to make people aware of it.
So they don't lose hope... so they don't fall away, ...so they don't return to their vomit... etc.

The once saved always saved sounds an awful lot like Satan in the garden...
"go ahead and eat, you will not surely die".

"Go ahead and do whatever you want, you won't lose your salvation".

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

"Go ahead and do whatever you want, you won't lose your salvation".

Are you so ready to sin that you would abuse the grace?
I don't think most believers are looking for a technicality to justify sin.
Knowing that it's all God sets us free from the desire to do harm to ourselves or others.

To willfully do something you must exert willpower against your nature(sin is natural to man so no willfulness is needed to sin).
If you are not sinning due to your own willpower then you are not really free from sin.
In fact you serve it by acknowledging it's power over you.
But if the son sets you free from the desire to sin then you know without a doubt you are free.
In such a case sin has lost it's power over you.
When the son sets you free you will know it.
If you sin because of a lack of willpower to stop then you are not free from sin.
I am one who lacks willpower so I know when I am free from desire that God did that,not me.
What a relief.

 

[RJ]

Believe me... I don't put "so much value" in what I do. I think it's 99% Jesus.. but I believe it is at least 1%
what we do.

I love you @B-A-C but you must give up that 1%, which is not scriptural. Grace is a gift, it is not a 99-1 % proposition, it is ALL of him and NONE of you or it would not be grace. I can promise, if you can completely give up that 1 %, then you will be living in 100% of what Jesus says the truth that will set you free!

 

[B-A-C]

Are you so ready to sin that you would abuse the grace?
I don't think most believers are looking for a technicality to justify sin.
Knowing that it's all God sets us free from the desire to do harm to ourselves or others.

So you can say you've never sinned since you've become a Christian? Honestly?
Because if you have, then this argument of "Knowing Jesus keeps us from sinning" in invalid.

As far as if some people are looking for a way to justify sin.. I think that's exactly what many are looking for.
I would say everyone that believes homosexuality isn't a sin, would say exactly that.

Now perhaps You, and I are "better Christians than that" and we would never abuse the grace.
But if you're teaching people that grace covers everything... (which is unbiblical)
Then you're also teaching them that sin doesn't matter.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

So you can say you've never sinned since you've become a Christian? Honestly?
Because if you have, then this argument of "Knowing Jesus keeps us from sinning" in invalid.

I have to use human willpower in areas that I have not been set free in but in those areas where God released me from the desire I have no desire and would have to willfully sin.Being set free in just a few areas let me know there is a huge difference.That gave me incentive to request freedom from others areas and in some of those I am still waiting.

As far as if some people are looking for a way to justify sin.. I think that's exactly what many are looking for.
I would say everyone that believes homosexuality isn't a sin, would say exactly that.

I am not responsible for what others are looking for or how others approach grace and neither are you.

Now perhaps You, and I are "better Christians than that" and we would never abuse the grace.
But if you're teaching people that grace covers everything... (which is unbiblical)
Then you're also teaching them that sin doesn't matter.

I think more mature or practiced would be more accurate than the word better.
I tell new converts to use willpower but know the difference between willpower and God's power to remove the desire.
In that way they don't secretly wonder if they are the problem and are perhaps rejected by God.
I almost gave up many times in the first years because I thought everyone could stop having wrong desires except me.
It turns out they were just lying or had found a way to justify what they could not stop themselves.
I knew I was a sinner and only God could release me because I posses very little willpower.
Only one Christian shared with me his inability to free himself and how God set him free from a few desires.
That gave me hope to continue trusting God.

 

[RJ]

But if you're teaching people that grace covers everything... (which is unbiblical)
Then you're also teaching them that sin doesn't matter.

You know brother @B-A-C , if you are talking willful and non-repentant sin, then you are EXACTLY right, grace does not cover that!

 

[amadeus2]

This is exactly the opposite of what it says.

Heb 6:4; or in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away,....

It doesn't say they "claimed" to be enlightened, it doesn't say they "said" they had partook of the Holy Spirit".
It says they "did" these things.... and then "fell away".

To me, there is no doubt as the meaning, which would agree with your understanding but don't bang your head against a wall about it. You may be right, but it is not you that increases anyone. This is why as it says in I Corinthians 13: "the greatest of these is charity". You must put on charity rather than fight a battle. Jesus put on charity and died even though He was innocent.

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." I Cor 13:2

 

[B-A-C]

I am not responsible for what others are looking for or how others approach grace and neither are you.

But we are responsible for what we teach them. We will be held accountable for false teachings.
Matt 5:19; 1 Cor 12:28-29; 2 Tim 4:3; James 3:1;

Is this the same as being a stumbling block or teaching a false doctrine?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Is this the same as being a stumbling block or teaching a false doctrine?

I don't understand what you refer to by "this".
I have not been appointed to teach or preach.