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many or few?

Active
My point is: Although agape is a Christian virtue, the Christians don't own it. Agape is
universal. People were feeling and practicing agape in one form or another long
before Christians came along, e.g. Gen 27:4
_
Correct: agapē is universal, but it is also perfect, for it is God's love nature. 1 John 4:16. No one but Jesus, who is God, ever practiced or does now practice or ever will practice perfect agapē, which is why we need Jesus as our substitutionary agapē.
 
Loyal
I make no claim to accuracy. Throughout post No.5 are words like if,
approximately, estimate, suggest.

Plus, my figures omit everyone in America under the age of 19, and all the
abortions.

And; were I to reduce the many's percentage, then the few's percentage
would become the larger; which of course would contradict Luke 13:22-24,
Matt 7:13-14, and Matt 12:14.

It's very likely that I have given the few too big an advantage. I rather
suspect their side of the equation is actually quite a bit less than 49%.
_

'This' is really back-tracking , however -- "Plus, my figures omit everyone is America under the age of 19, And all the abortions". The abortions are what I'm wondering about. Are They in the group you consider to be in hell? Or under God's grace and being with Jesus Christ for eternity?

And why would the age of 19 make any difference? Being 'under' particularly.
 
Active
agapē is universal, but it is also perfect, for it is God's love nature.
Agape isn't specifically a divine love.

Take for example John 4:24 where it says God is spirit. Well; a demon is spirit too;
so it would be a mistake to conflate spirit as divine on the basis that God is spirit.

Now if you'd like to say that God's love is perfect; that works; but I think it's a
mistake to say that love is perfect on the basis that God's love is perfect.

I think it safe to say that quite a bit of love on Earth is imperfect; but nevertheless,
all love on Earth is defined by the same Greek noun as defines love in Heaven. In
point of fact; I'm pretty sure that agape is the only Greek noun for love in the entire
New Testament. All the other words for love are basically verbs.
_
 
Loyal
@Beetow -- sometimes you take Scripture to an extreme and expect to be agreed with because you feel / think you're correct.

'We' have agape / God's love for us - self-sacrificing love //Philos and Eros kinds of love.
 
Active
'We' have agape / God's love for us - self-sacrificing love //Philos and Eros kinds
of love.
The ancient Greek language in which the New Testament was written, contains
three distinct nouns for "love." They are agape, storge, and eros. Of those three
ancient Geek nouns, only agape is in the New Testament.

The love words phileo and agapao are in the New Testament but they are not
nouns, rather, they are verbs; and in my opinion they are very essential verbs.
Without them I would not be able to properly understand each and every verse
that contains the word "love".

Anyway; I think it would be a huge mistake to limit agape to God's love because
then there would be no Greek nouns in the New Testament for any other love
seeing as how agape is thus far the only option available.
_
 
Active
Agape isn't specifically a divine love.

Take for example John 4:24 where it says God is spirit. Well; a demon is spirit too;
so it would be a mistake to conflate spirit as divine on the basis that God is spirit.

Now if you'd like to say that God's love is perfect; that works; but I think it's a
mistake to say that love is perfect on the basis that God's love is perfect.

I think it safe to say that quite a bit of love on Earth is imperfect; but nevertheless,
all love on Earth is defined by the same Greek noun as defines love in Heaven. In
point of fact; I'm pretty sure that agape is the only Greek noun for love in the entire
New Testament. All the other words for love are basically verbs.
_
Agapēo is indeed divine, and is an action, for the most part, thus a verb. "Agapēo is not the kind of love that says, “I'm going to derive pleasure from you by possessing you.” Agapēo doesn't say, “I'll love you just as long as you love me.” Agapēo is a decision that says, “I'll be primarily concerned with your well-being, regardless of your condition, and irrespective of your reaction.” ?

Agapēo is indeed an action, and is an action perfected by God and God alone. We humans can try to agapēo, as we are commanded to agapēo, but none are quite there but those that give their life in sacrifice for another.

Re: comparing divine with agapēo: You are comparing two separate and distinct words with unrelated meanings: divine can be a noun or adjective; agapēo can be a verb as when Jesus said in John 15:9 "Just as the Father has agapēo me, I have agapēo you." And as a noun when Jesus continued and said "Abide in my agapē."
 
Active
Gen 38:15 . .When Judah saw her, he thought she was a prostitute, for she had
covered her face.

The particular kind of prostitute in this episode is from the Hebrew word qedeshah
(ked-ay-shaw') which isn't your typical working girl, but rather a devotee raising
money for an established religion (Gen 38:21) typically a pagan kind of religion
centered upon the worship of a goddess like Ashtoreth (a.k.a. Astarte). So one
might say that a qedeshah's services were for a worthy cause.

Gen 38:16-17 . . Not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law, he went over to
her by the roadside and said: Come now, let me sleep with you. And what will you
give me to sleep with you? she asked. I'll send you a young goat from my flock; he
said. Will you give me something as a pledge until you send it? she asked.

The Hebrew word for "pledge" in that passage is 'arabown (ar-aw-bone') which
means property given as security-- viz: collateral --as in a pawn shop or a bank
loan. This is the very first place in the Bible where that word is used. In the usury
business, an 'arabown is forfeited if the borrower fails to repay his loan; i.e. make
good on his promise. This is a very important element in the divine plan.

"In him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your
salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of
promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased
possession, to the praise of His glory." (Eph 1:13-14)

The Greek word for "pledge" in that passage is arrhabon (ar-hrab-ohn') which
means essentially the same as the Hebrew word 'arabown except that the Greek
word indicates a little something extra.

Real estate transactions usually involve a sum called the earnest money. Although
it may be applied towards the purchase price of property, earnest money itself
serves a specific purpose of its own in the real estate business. In some quarters;
this is also called good-faith money.

When the contract, and all the other necessary documents are submitted to Escrow,
the buyer is required to also submit a token amount of the purchase price. It's
usually a relatively small number of dollars compared to the full price of the
property. I think ours was just $1,000 back in 1988 on a $74,000 home. When the
buyer follows through on their intent to purchase the property, the good-faith
money (minus some Escrow fees of course) goes towards the purchase.

However, if the buyer decides to renege, then they forfeit the good faith money. No
doubt that's done to discourage vacillating buyers from fiddling around with other
people's time and money.

So then, since God's Spirit is the earnest depicted in Eph 1:13-14; then, according
to the principles underlying the arrhabon, should God betray a believer's trust by
reneging on His promise to spare people who hear and believe the gospel, then He
forfeits; and the believer gets to keep the Spirit regardless of their afterlife destiny.

But of course God won't renege because doing so would not only embarrass
Himself, but embarrass His son too as Jesus has given his word that believers have
nothing to fear.

"I assure you, those who heed my message, and believe in God who sent me, have
eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already
passed from death into life." (John 5:24)

There are people who actually believe the Bible's God can get away with reneging
on His promises. A belief of that nature of course eo ipso insinuates that He lacks
integrity, i.e. the Bible's God is capable of dishonesty and can't be trusted to make
good on anything He says.

UPDATE: 246 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 15,282,504 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_
 
Loyal
@Beetow -- reading through all that you shared -- sometimes I have a hard time believing that you're really a born again believer.

You're comparisons of the word 'pledge'. Oh, my. You Did get into the Hebrew meaning of words. And it Is your post. But Really?!

You started out talking about the prostitute and then going on to buying property -- experience with that recently -- and then on to God's promises -- the promises of God / salvation / the Holy Spirit.
 
Active
sometimes I have a hard time believing that you're really a born again believer.
People who've undergone the Spirit birth per John 3:3-5 have no distinct markings
making them easy to distinguish from rank and file pew warmers.

John 3:8 . .The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you
cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of
the Spirit.
_
 
Active
People who've undergone the Spirit birth per John 3:3-5 have no distinct markings
making them easy to distinguish from rank and file pew warmers.

John 3:8 . .The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you
cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of
the Spirit.
_
You're right, there is no physical marking to distingiish us vs. them. Yet every born again believer receives the seal of promise, and will have a distinct and markedly changed attitude about life and about God and about the promises of God, such as: the free gift of salvation to all who repent and believe. And we born again believers will be marked by others as them that share God's promise with the lost and the afraid, for God's promise is the cure for eternal life.
 
Active
every born again believer receives the seal of promise,
The seal spoken of by Eph 1:13-14 is invisible, supernatural, and undetectable by
the five natural senses of sight, hearing, taste, smell, and touch, It is also
undetectable by scientific devices like MRI, CAT Scan, and X-rays. Even folk who
actually have the seal cannot sense it's presence inside their bodies much less by
the folk with whom they come in contact.

Some born-again Christians are under the impression that the Spirit has them
equipped with some sort of radar for detecting other born-again Christians. Not so.
In point of fact, some born-again Christians are so worldly that they appear secular.
(1Cor 3:1-3)

My unsolicited spiritual counseling is to treat all Christians as if they are born-again
because you just don't know sometimes who you're dealing with.

Heb 13:1-3 . . Do not neglect to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people
have entertained angels without knowing it.

Angels aren't always celestial beings. The Greek word just simply means messenger;
for example the angels listed in Rev 2:1-3:14 are local church managers.
_
 
Active
The seal spoken of by Eph 1:13-14 is invisible, supernatural, and undetectable by
the five natural senses of sight, hearing, taste, smell, and touch, It is also
undetectable by scientific devices like MRI, CAT Scan, and X-rays. Even folk who
actually have the seal cannot sense it's presence inside their bodies much less by
the folk with whom they come in contact.

Some born-again Christians are under the impression that the Spirit has them
equipped with some sort of radar for detecting other born-again Christians. Not so.
In point of fact, some born-again Christians are so worldly that they appear secular.
(1Cor 3:1-3)

My unsolicited spiritual counseling is to treat all Christians as if they are born-again
because you just don't know sometimes who you're dealing with.

Heb 13:1-3 . . Do not neglect to entertain strangers, for by so doing some people
have entertained angels without knowing it.

Angels aren't always celestial beings. The Greek word just simply means messenger;
for example the angels listed in Rev 2:1-3:14 are local church managers.
_
Yes, the seal of promise is supernatural, but the fruit of the Spirit that each born again believer receives is manifested outwardly by our changed attitudes toward life generally and God specifically. The fruit of a born again believer will be evident to sight, hearing, touch, perhaps even smell and taste.
 
Loyal
I sensed the indwelling of the Holy Spirit immediately upon my conversion. An inner peacefulness that hadn't been there before and He let's me know He's still there every so often.

And, yes, believers Can sense other believers being around them.

The born again Christians you mention who are so worldly that they appear to be secular -- well -- there's a good chance that they Are still secular and Not born again. If their life doesn't show it -- chances are it's not there.

Many years ago there was a meeting of parents of kids who wanted to get into tee-ball. There was a lady sitting by herself who I sensed Was another believer -- got to talking and yes she was. I didn't have to ask her -- it was her conversation -- attitude.

There was another lady who was at a foot ball game honoring the Senior's who were graduating in the team. At half-time the parents were to join their senior in the field. Well -- there was a lady sitting down a few seats in a really beautiful dress. Everything was okay about her until she opened her mouth. She didn't like something that had happened and out poured some of the most vile language you'd ever heard. Her countenance had Not be peaceable in the least.

And then you commented that angels aren't always celestial beings? And, yes, they Are also messengers. As per Revelation passages talking about the 7 churches in Asia.

Beetow -- you are a smart guy -- you like to 'evaluate' Scripture -- however..........from what you're describing -- maybe there's a reason your 'spirit' Isn't recognizing other born again believers. Just suggestin....
 
Active
Below is a fictitious spiritual counseling session.


INQUIRER: Is there any way I can know for sure whether I have been given the
earnest of the Spirit in accord with Eph 1:13-14?

COUSELOR: Would you like a short answer, a medium length answer, or a long version?

INQUIRER: Short.

COUSELOR: Okay. Ephesians 1:13 says that it's only necessary to trust in Christ
via believing in the gospel of your salvation in order to be be given the earnest of
the Spirit. So; are you trusting in Christ is accord with belief in the gospel?

INQUIRER: Which part of the gospel?

COUSELOR: Would you like a short answer, a medium length answer, or a long version?

INQUIRER: The medium length.

A: ”Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be
lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so
loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him
might not perish but might have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the
world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him."

Long story short: Moses' people became sick and tired of living in the desert and
eating manna all the time at every meal. But instead of courteously, and
diplomatically, petitioning their divine benefactor for tastier food and better
accommodations, they became hostile and confrontational.

In response to their insolence; God sent a swarm of deadly poisonous snakes
among them; which began striking people; and every strike was 100% fatal, no
exceptions. In no time at all, much people of Israel died. Then those not yet dead
got nervous and appealed to Moses for help. In reply; The Lord instructed Moses to
construct a replica of the beasts and hoist it up on a pole in plain view so that
everyone dying from venom could look to it for immunity.

Now the key issue here is that the replica, lifted up, was the only God-given
remedy for the people's terminal condition-- not purity, not sacrifices and offerings,
not tithing, not church attendance, not missionary work, not confession, not holy
days of obligation, not the Sabbath, not charity, not good deeds, not good
behavior, not piety, not Bible study and Sunday school, not catechism or yeshiva,
not one's religion of choice, not self denial and/or self control, not the so-called
golden rule, not vows of poverty and/or chastity, not the Ten Commandments, not
the Eucharist; no, none of that: not even prayers. That replica, lifted up, was it;
viz: it was all or nothing at all-- there was no other option. Whoever failed to look
to that replica, lifted up, for immunity died: no exceptions.

In other words then: Christ, lifted up on the cross to satisfy justice for the sins of
the world, is the only God-given option for protection from the second death
depicted at Rev 20:11-15. The default is terminal; no exceptions. People relying
upon religion and piety, instead of putting all their trust in Christ's crucifixion, are
dead men walking, no exceptions.

John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever disbelieves
stands condemned already

INQUIRER: I don't agree with your interpretation of John 3:14-17. It smacks of
something I've heard called OSAS, which I know for sure is absolutely wrong.

COUSELOR: Well then; I guess we're done here.
_
 
Active
Below is a fictitious spiritual counseling session.


INQUIRER: Is there any way I can know for sure whether I have been given the
earnest of the Spirit in accord with Eph 1:13-14?

COUSELOR: Would you like a short answer, a medium length answer, or a long version?

INQUIRER: Short.

COUSELOR: Okay. Ephesians 1:13 says that it's only necessary to trust in Christ
via believing in the gospel of your salvation in order to be be given the earnest of
the Spirit. So; are you trusting in Christ is accord with belief in the gospel?

INQUIRER: Which part of the gospel?

COUSELOR: Would you like a short answer, a medium length answer, or a long version?

INQUIRER: The medium length.

A: ”Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be
lifted up, so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so
loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him
might not perish but might have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the
world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him."

Long story short: Moses' people became sick and tired of living in the desert and
eating manna all the time at every meal. But instead of courteously, and
diplomatically, petitioning their divine benefactor for tastier food and better
accommodations, they became hostile and confrontational.

In response to their insolence; God sent a swarm of deadly poisonous snakes
among them; which began striking people; and every strike was 100% fatal, no
exceptions. In no time at all, much people of Israel died. Then those not yet dead
got nervous and appealed to Moses for help. In reply; The Lord instructed Moses to
construct a replica of the beasts and hoist it up on a pole in plain view so that
everyone dying from venom could look to it for immunity.

Now the key issue here is that the replica, lifted up, was the only God-given
remedy for the people's terminal condition-- not purity, not sacrifices and offerings,
not tithing, not church attendance, not missionary work, not confession, not holy
days of obligation, not the Sabbath, not charity, not good deeds, not good
behavior, not piety, not Bible study and Sunday school, not catechism or yeshiva,
not one's religion of choice, not self denial and/or self control, not the so-called
golden rule, not vows of poverty and/or chastity, not the Ten Commandments, not
the Eucharist; no, none of that: not even prayers. That replica, lifted up, was it;
viz: it was all or nothing at all-- there was no other option. Whoever failed to look
to that replica, lifted up, for immunity died: no exceptions.

In other words then: Christ, lifted up on the cross to satisfy justice for the sins of
the world, is the only God-given option for protection from the second death
depicted at Rev 20:11-15. The default is terminal; no exceptions. People relying
upon religion and piety, instead of putting all their trust in Christ's crucifixion, are
dead men walking, no exceptions.

John 3:18 . .Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever disbelieves
stands condemned already

INQUIRER: I don't agree with your interpretation of John 3:14-17. It smacks of
something I've heard called OSAS, which I know for sure is absolutely wrong.

COUSELOR: Well then; I guess we're done here.
_
LOL. That was good.
 
Loyal
@Beetow -- your fictitious spiritual counseling session -- most interesting.

I spent two years In spiritual counseling -- and I wanted to Be a spiritual counselor, myself -- except it's called Biblical counseling.

Chuckling but don't really know what to make of it.

Eternal security is an important subject.
 
Active
The Fault-Finder's Motto

That woman of mine; she ain't happy
'Till she finds something wrong and someone to blame.
If it ain't one thing, it's another one on the way.

Rainy Day Woman
Waylon Jennings / 1974
.
 

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