Is it Okay to Condemn Sinners?

[Richard Aberdeen]

You're making this discussion difficult. You keep ignoring the arguments I've made. A discussion works by taking the other person's points, addressing them, and then presenting your own. Instead, you simply jump back to your tunnel vision theology of 'sin is sin, full stop'.

You answered "No" to my question that Paul would not have been used by God to write two-thirds of the New Testament if, after his conversion, he had continued as a rapist, murderer, or other unrepentant grievous sinner.

Yet, having conceded that point, you immediately put it aside and return to repeating, "sin is sin,".

I've never denied that all people are sinners. I've agreed with that from the beginning. What I keep saying and what you continue to avoid, is that Scripture also teaches there are degrees of sin, degrees of judgment, and degrees of consequence.

When we blur those distinctions, we risk giving false comfort to people living in serious, unrepentant sin. Instead of calling them to urgently repent, we encourage them to think, "Well, everyone sins, so my situation is no different.".

We are told to judge ourselves 1 Cor 11:31 and work out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12. When we do this, on our knees before God, we ask ourselves, ''ok, so the sin I committed today, what does it tell God about my love for Him? Today, did I make mistakes of sin that upset God at the level that He has thoughts of sending me to a very public, graphic and violent death by stoning? Or did I steal candy from the candy store?''

You stumble weak believers into not properly examining themselves by blurring the lines on degrees of sin.

It's like you did not grasp the relevance of your answer to my Yes or No question. Absolutely insanity. ''Yes KingJ, God would not have used Paul if after conversion he was a rapist. Oh and by the way sin is sin, if Paul rapes or steals candy from the candy store, its the same thing..........cough cough cough......''

Sin is sin (true) and sin has degrees (true). You should not teach one without the other.

-------------------

Here are ten clear instance where degrees of sin are raised. Meditate on these and their relevance to our self judgement 1 Cor 11:31.

1. Jesus explicitly speaks of a "greater sin."
   • John 19:11
   • "He who delivered Me unto thee hath the greater sin."
   • Argument: If one sin is "greater," then not all sins are equal in severity.
2. Jesus speaks of "weightier matters" of God's law.
   • Matthew 23:23
   • "...the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith..."
   • Argument: Jesus Himself teaches that some commandments carry greater moral weight.
3. Different punishments at the Judgment.
   • Luke 12:47-48
   • "That servant... shall be beaten with many stripes... he that knew not... shall be beaten with few stripes."
   • Argument: Different punishment requires different degrees of guilt.
4. Paul orders church discipline for incest.
   • 1 Corinthians 5:1-5
   • Paul does not merely say, "We're all sinners."
   • He commands the church to remove the man and deliver him to Satan.
   • Argument: If all ongoing sins were treated identically, Paul would not single out this case for such severe discipline.
5. Some sins lead to death.
   • 1 John 5:16-17
   • "There is a sin unto death... All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."
   • Argument: John explicitly distinguishes between sins.
6. Teachers receive stricter judgment.
   • James 3:1
   • "...knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation."
   • Argument: Greater judgment implies greater accountability.
7. The Old Testament prescribed different penalties for different sins.
   • Murder = death.
   • Adultery = death.
   • Homosexual acts = death (Leviticus 20:13).
   • Theft = restitution.
   • False witness = varying penalties.
   • Argument: God Himself established differing punishments because He distinguishes between offences.
8. God repeatedly calls certain sins "greater abominations."
   • Ezekiel 8:6, 13, 15
   • God tells Ezekiel:
     • "You shall see greater abominations."
     • "...yet again thou shalt see greater abominations."
   • Argument: God literally ranks sins by severity.
9. Sodom's sin was described as "very grievous."
   • Genesis 18:20
   • "Because their sin is very grievous."
   • Argument: Scripture doesn't merely say they sinned; it says their sin reached an exceptional level.
10. Some sins exclude people from inheriting the Kingdom if persisted in.
    • 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    • Galatians 5:19-21
    • Paul lists specific lifestyles and warns:
      • "...they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
    • Argument: Paul does not merely say "everyone sins." He specifically warns against persistent, unrepentant sins that place salvation in jeopardy.

Your arguments contradict Jesus and the Bible. Jeremiah 17:9 clearly states, that the human heart is deceitful and above all, desperately wicked. Modern science research has confirmed this to be true. You are claiming that you somehow are not as bad as other people, which is known to be a lie by both Jeremiah and modern science.

All human beings, including me and including you, possess a sinful nature, a heart that is deceitful and above all, desperately wicked. This is why Jesus died and you are clearly contradicting the reality of the nature of human beings.

 

[KingJ]

Your arguments contradict Jesus and the Bible. Jeremiah 17:9 clearly states, that the human heart is deceitful and above all, desperately wicked. Modern science research has confirmed this to be true. You are claiming that you somehow are not as bad as other people, which is known to be a lie by both Jeremiah and modern science.

All human beings, including me and including you, possess a sinful nature, a heart that is deceitful and above all, desperately wicked. This is why Jesus died and you are clearly contradicting the reality of the nature of human beings.

Richard you're still arguing against something I never said.

I agree with Jeremiah 17:9. I agree that all people are sinners that the human heart is desperately wicked and that we all need Christ.

What I disagree with is your conclusion that therefore all sins are equal in severity.

Jesus Himself spoke of a "greater sin" (John 19:11) "weightier matters" of the law (Matthew 23:23) and different degrees of punishment (Luke 12:47-48).

So the issue is not whether we are all sinners. We are. The issue is whether Scripture recognizes degrees of sin guilt and judgment. It clearly does.

"All are sinners" and "some sins are greater than others" are not contradictory statements. The Bible teaches both.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

Richard you're still arguing against something I never said.

I agree with Jeremiah 17:9. I agree that all people are sinners that the human heart is desperately wicked and that we all need Christ.

What I disagree with is your conclusion that therefore all sins are equal in severity.

Jesus Himself spoke of a "greater sin" (John 19:11) "weightier matters" of the law (Matthew 23:23) and different degrees of punishment (Luke 12:47-48).

So the issue is not whether we are all sinners. We are. The issue is whether Scripture recognizes degrees of sin guilt and judgment. It clearly does.

"All are sinners" and "some sins are greater than others" are not contradictory statements. The Bible teaches both.

I didn't say that. I said that all sinners are equally guilty before God, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." You are no better than anyone else. You and I and every other human have the same deceitful and desperately wicked heart.

That is the conclusion of Romans chapter 1 and what Jesus taught his followers. One of the main sins of the Pharisees is that they thought they were better than the common people who Jesus hung out with. Jesus "knew what was in" people. That is, ALL people.

Everyone is guilty of breaking God's law, which is singular, not plural as in laws. I challenge you to find anywhere in Paul's letters where he refers to God's laws in the plural. He does not ever do that.

This is what Romans 2:1 states, which is the conclusion of chapter one and belongs in chapter one: "Therefore, you are inexcusable, O one, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."

We are all guilty of Romans chapter one--all human beings. As I tried to point out to you, this agrees with the findings of behavioral science.

 

[KingJ]

I didn't say that. I said that all sinners are equally guilty before God, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." You are no better than anyone else. You and I and every other human have the same deceitful and desperately wicked heart.

That is the conclusion of Romans chapter 1 and what Jesus taught his followers. One of the main sins of the Pharisees is that they thought they were better than the common people who Jesus hung out with. Jesus "knew what was in" people. That is, ALL people.

Everyone is guilty of breaking God's law, which is singular, not plural as in laws. I challenge you to find anywhere in Paul's letters where he refers to God's laws in the plural. He does not ever do that.

This is what Romans 2:1 states, which is the conclusion of chapter one and belongs in chapter one: "Therefore, you are inexcusable, O one, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."

We are all guilty of Romans chapter one--all human beings. As I tried to point out to you, this agrees with the findings of behavioral science.

Richard, we're getting closer because you've now changed your position. Originally you argued "sin is sin." Now you're saying "all sinners are equally guilty before God."

Our point of contention is not whether we're all sinners, but that it is unwise / dangerous to stop the discussion there.

When Christians preach only, "We're all sinners," but refuse to preach that Scripture also distinguishes between greater and lesser sins, they risk giving false comfort to people living in serious, unrepentant sin. Instead of calling them to fear God, repent, and turn from their sin, they reassure them that their situation is no different from every other Christian's daily struggle.

That is a dangerous space for a Christion to be in. I would not want to be guilty of that when I meet God on judgement day!

Meditate on the fact that Jesus spoke of a "greater sin." Paul publicly removed the man guilty of incest in 1 Corinthians 5 instead of simply saying, "We're all sinners." John distinguished between "sin unto death" and sin "not unto death." Scripture repeatedly warns that some sins carry greater guilt, greater consequences, and greater judgment.

My concern is that many Christians, often because they don't want to offend people, especially regarding sexual sin, intentionally blur those distinctions. In doing so, they risk becoming false teachers by softening God's warnings instead of faithfully proclaiming them.

The most loving thing we can do is tell people the whole truth. Yes, we are all sinners in need of Christ. But we must also warn those living in serious, unrepentant sin that they are in grave spiritual danger. That isn't judgmental; it's biblical, and it's loving.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

Richard, we're getting closer because you've now changed your position. Originally you argued "sin is sin." Now you're saying "all sinners are equally guilty before God."

Our point of contention is not whether we're all sinners, but that it is unwise / dangerous to stop the discussion there.

When Christians preach only, "We're all sinners," but refuse to preach that Scripture also distinguishes between greater and lesser sins, they risk giving false comfort to people living in serious, unrepentant sin. Instead of calling them to fear God, repent, and turn from their sin, they reassure them that their situation is no different from every other Christian's daily struggle.

That is a dangerous space for a Christion to be in. I would not want to be guilty of that when I meet God on judgement day!

Meditate on the fact that Jesus spoke of a "greater sin." Paul publicly removed the man guilty of incest in 1 Corinthians 5 instead of simply saying, "We're all sinners." John distinguished between "sin unto death" and sin "not unto death." Scripture repeatedly warns that some sins carry greater guilt, greater consequences, and greater judgment.

My concern is that many Christians, often because they don't want to offend people, especially regarding sexual sin, intentionally blur those distinctions. In doing so, they risk becoming false teachers by softening God's warnings instead of faithfully proclaiming them.

The most loving thing we can do is tell people the whole truth. Yes, we are all sinners in need of Christ. But we must also warn those living in serious, unrepentant sin that they are in grave spiritual danger. That isn't judgmental; it's biblical, and it's loving.

You are wrong about the base nature of people. No one can please God by obedience to the law. We are all sinners and sin is indeed sin to God, whether you think so or not.

Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in his sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." According to Paul, the law was given as a teacher, so that we will know we are sinners, not that God is naive and thought we could please him by obeying it. Because our sins are covered through forgiveness from Jesus, we are "not under the law, but under grace."

The Old Covenant is the law. The New Covenant is grace. Under grace, there is no law. Many Christians are confused because they hear the wrong term "New Testament", instead of what the Bible calls it, "New Covenant". The Bible refers to the Old Covenant and New Covenant, not the old and new testaments. And many Christians wrongly teach that we are under the law or Christian religious rules, regulations and/or traditions. Under grace, there is no such thing; Galatians is very clear concerning this.

This is what people are really like apart from salvation in Jesus. It is not about degrees of sin, it is that we by nature are sinners and we cannot please God apart from forgiveness. A sinner is unable to obey God all of the time, even if we want to. Romans 3:20 clearly says we are no better than anyone else, which is what I told you:

From Romans 3: "What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open tomb
With their tongues they have practiced deceit;
The poison of asps is under their lips;
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace they have not known.
There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

This is what the Bible says is true of all people apart from Jesus saving us from our sins.

At the bottom line, we cannot save ourselves, which is what is wrong with all religions, self-help systems and philosophies, which cannot change a single moral hair on our heads.

 

[KingJ]

You are wrong about the base nature of people. No one can please God by obedience to the law. We are all sinners and sin is indeed sin to God, whether you think so or not.

Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in his sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." According to Paul, the law was given as a teacher, so that we will know we are sinners, not that God is naive and thought we could please him by obeying it. Because our sins are covered through forgiveness from Jesus, we are "not under the law, but under grace."

The Old Covenant is the law. The New Covenant is grace. Under grace, there is no law. Many Christians are confused because they hear the wrong term "New Testament", instead of what the Bible calls it, "New Covenant". The Bible refers to the Old Covenant and New Covenant, not the old and new testaments. And many Christians wrongly teach that we are under the law or Christian religious rules, regulations and/or traditions. Under grace, there is no such thing; Galatians is very clear concerning this.

I agree with this. We are made perfect to God and will never be perfect like Him. Please understand, I do not disagree with this.

Heb 10:14 'For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified'.

From Romans 3: "What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open tomb
With their tongues they have practiced deceit;
The poison of asps is under their lips;
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace they have not known.
There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

This is what the Bible says is true of all people apart from Jesus saving us from our sins.

Romans 3 is absolutely true, but you're expecting it to answer a question Paul isn't discussing.

Paul's point in Romans 3 is that everyone is guilty before God and no one is justified by keeping the Law. I agree completely.

But Romans 3 does not say that all sins are equally grievous, carry the same consequences, or receive the same judgment. It simply says that all have sinned and therefore all need a Saviour.

In fact, if Romans 3 meant there were no distinctions between sins, Paul would later contradict himself. In 1 Corinthians 5 he publicly commands the church to remove the man living in incest. He doesn't simply say, "We're all sinners." Likewise, Jesus spoke of a "greater sin" (John 19:11) and different degrees of punishment (Luke 12:47-48).

This is what people are really like apart from salvation in Jesus.

You need to be careful here. If you go too far with this you end up pushing Calvinistic teaching of total depravity which is simply not true.

We see in the OT that God separated sinner from sinner with Abraham's bosom.

It is not about degrees of sin,

Degrees of sin are very relevant. Stop downplaying it. It shows how close we are to being 'beyond all hope'. As scripture says in Gen 15:16 'sin full measure'.

We can confidently say that anyone continuing in a mortal sin is not a Christian. God is the only one that can judge the heart of a venial sinner Jer 17:9-11.

it is that we by nature are sinners and we cannot please God apart from forgiveness. A sinner is unable to obey God all of the time, even if we want to. Romans 3:20 clearly says we are no better than anyone else, which is what I told you:

Once more you seem to be pushing total depravity. You need to be careful, this is not true.

It is true that we are all sinners. There are sinners that love what is evil and then there are sinners that hate what is evil.

We see that Paul says he hates what is evil in Rom 7:15. We see that he also says genuine love for God is to hate what is evil Rom 12:9.

God gave mankind high intelligence Heb 2:7 and the full knowledge of good and evil Gen 3:22. He gave us the ability to hate or love what is evil.

In the OT He (and this is the point that really needs to sink in ) He separated sinner from sinner. Those who hate what is evil were placed in Abraham's bosom. Those who did not were placed in Hell. Jesus is crystal clear on this in Luke 16:19-31.

Salvation is taking repentant sinners / those who hate what is evil from a position of separation and reconciling them with God. Salvation is not taking unrepentant sinners from hell to heaven.

You need to understand that God separates sinner from sinner.

At the bottom line, we cannot save ourselves, which is what is wrong with all religions, self-help systems and philosophies, which cannot change a single moral hair on our heads.

If Jesus never died, there would still be a separation in Hades between sinners that hate their sin from sinners that don't.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

I agree with this. We are made perfect to God and will never be perfect like Him. Please understand, I do not disagree with this.

Heb 10:14 'For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified'.



Romans 3 is absolutely true, but you're expecting it to answer a question Paul isn't discussing.

Paul's point in Romans 3 is that everyone is guilty before God and no one is justified by keeping the Law. I agree completely.

But Romans 3 does not say that all sins are equally grievous, carry the same consequences, or receive the same judgment. It simply says that all have sinned and therefore all need a Saviour.

In fact, if Romans 3 meant there were no distinctions between sins, Paul would later contradict himself. In 1 Corinthians 5 he publicly commands the church to remove the man living in incest. He doesn't simply say, "We're all sinners." Likewise, Jesus spoke of a "greater sin" (John 19:11) and different degrees of punishment (Luke 12:47-48).



You need to be careful here. If you go too far with this you end up pushing Calvinistic teaching of total depravity which is simply not true.

We see in the OT that God separated sinner from sinner with Abraham's bosom.



Degrees of sin are very relevant. Stop downplaying it. It shows how close we are to being 'beyond all hope'. As scripture says in Gen 15:16 'sin full measure'.

We can confidently say that anyone continuing in a mortal sin is not a Christian. God is the only one that can judge the heart of a venial sinner Jer 17:9-11.



Once more you seem to be pushing total depravity. You need to be careful, this is not true.

It is true that we are all sinners. There are sinners that love what is evil and then there are sinners that hate what is evil.

We see that Paul says he hates what is evil in Rom 7:15. We see that he also says genuine love for God is to hate what is evil Rom 12:9.

God gave mankind high intelligence Heb 2:7 and the full knowledge of good and evil Gen 3:22. He gave us the ability to hate or love what is evil.

In the OT He (and this is the point that really needs to sink in ) He separated sinner from sinner. Those who hate what is evil were placed in Abraham's bosom. Those who did not were placed in Hell. Jesus is crystal clear on this in Luke 16:19-31.

Salvation is taking repentant sinners / those who hate what is evil from a position of separation and reconciling them with God. Salvation is not taking unrepentant sinners from hell to heaven.

You need to understand that God separates sinner from sinner.



If Jesus never died, there would still be a separation in Hades between sinners that hate their sin from sinners that don't.

Sorry, I don't agree with you. Jesus said we have already committed adultery if we lust after a woman or in the case of a woman or homosexual, if they lust after a man. As sinners, we have all lusted and thus, we have all committed adultery in God's eyes, one of the three grievous sins listed in I Corinthians; these three are fornication, adultery and homosexual sex, all three listed together as things we should flee from.

There are physical things we of course should avoid besides these, like murder, theft and similar. But we are all guilty of all of this before God, that is, apart from forgiveness, because in the flesh, our hearts are "desperately wicked" and deceptive as to our true intentions.

The law is about physical things like adultery, theft, false witness, coveting things are neighbor has, etc. But Jesus is about the heart: As we think in our hearts, so are we.

Before God, we are all guilty of Romans One because in our flesh, as Paul says, "lives no good thing." This doesn't mean I advocate fornication or adultery or homosexual sex, which I do not. These are physical expressions of what lies in the hearts of people.

The reason I brought up science is because many Christians think they are better than homosexuals or other people who are not believers. The truth is, we are no better. It is interesting that science has only recently discovered what Jeremiah said a long time ago. Which is, what we think in our own conscious awareness, is deceptive as to our true intentions in our heart, or what science calls our "subconscious" reality.

 

[KingJ]

Sorry, I don't agree with you. Jesus said we have already committed adultery if we lust after a woman or in the case of a woman or homosexual, if they lust after a man. As sinners, we have all lusted and thus, we have all committed adultery in God's eyes, one of the three grievous sins listed in I Corinthians; these three are fornication, adultery and homosexual sex, all three listed together as things we should flee from.

There are physical things we of course should avoid besides these, like murder, theft and similar. But we are all guilty of all of this before God, that is, apart from forgiveness, because in the flesh, our hearts are "desperately wicked" and deceptive as to our true intentions.

The law is about physical things like adultery, theft, false witness, coveting things are neighbor has, etc. But Jesus is about the heart: As we think in our hearts, so are we.

Before God, we are all guilty of Romans One because in our flesh, as Paul says, "lives no good thing." This doesn't mean I advocate fornication or adultery or homosexual sex, which I do not. These are physical expressions of what lies in the hearts of people.

The reason I brought up science is because many Christians think they are better than homosexuals or other people who are not believers. The truth is, we are no better. It is interesting that science has only recently discovered what Jeremiah said a long time ago. Which is, what we think in our own conscious awareness, is deceptive as to our true intentions in our heart, or what science calls our "subconscious" reality.

I think we're going around in circles because you keep replying to a point I have never disputed.

I've repeatedly agreed that we are all sinners, that lust is sin, that Jesus exposed the sins of the heart, and that no one is justified by keeping the Law.

The question I keep asking is a different one, and you haven't answered it:

If all sins are the same in every respect, why does Scripture repeatedly distinguish between them?

Why did Jesus speak of a "greater sin"? Why are there different degrees of punishment? Why did Paul remove the man living in incest in 1 Corinthians 5 instead of simply saying, "We're all sinners"? Why does John distinguish between "sin unto death" and sin "not unto death"?

Those passages don't deny that we're all guilty before God. They show that God still distinguishes between sins in their seriousness and consequences.

The reason this matters is not to make some sinners feel superior to others. It's the exact opposite.

If we continually tell people living in serious, unrepentant sin only that "we're all sinners," without also warning them about God's repeated warnings concerning persistent rebellion, we risk giving them false comfort instead of calling them to urgent repentance.

That is my concern. I'm not denying our universal guilt. I'm saying we must preach the whole counsel of God, including His warnings about sins that harden the heart and bring greater judgment.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

I think we're going around in circles because you keep replying to a point I have never disputed.

I've repeatedly agreed that we are all sinners, that lust is sin, that Jesus exposed the sins of the heart, and that no one is justified by keeping the Law.

The question I keep asking is a different one, and you haven't answered it:

If all sins are the same in every respect, why does Scripture repeatedly distinguish between them?

Why did Jesus speak of a "greater sin"? Why are there different degrees of punishment? Why did Paul remove the man living in incest in 1 Corinthians 5 instead of simply saying, "We're all sinners"? Why does John distinguish between "sin unto death" and sin "not unto death"?

Those passages don't deny that we're all guilty before God. They show that God still distinguishes between sins in their seriousness and consequences.

The reason this matters is not to make some sinners feel superior to others. It's the exact opposite.

If we continually tell people living in serious, unrepentant sin only that "we're all sinners," without also warning them about God's repeated warnings concerning persistent rebellion, we risk giving them false comfort instead of calling them to urgent repentance.

That is my concern. I'm not denying our universal guilt. I'm saying we must preach the whole counsel of God, including His warnings about sins that harden the heart and bring greater judgment.

I'm unsure why you are arguing with me. I've never said sin is a good idea, it's not. Many religious people tend to think of "sins" in a very physical sense, such as theft, rape, murder, lying, etc. Obviously this harms other people and we should strongly oppose, but sin is much deeper than that. I lose patience with conservative Christians who condemn other people for being sinners, as if they are any better, which they are not.

I'm reminded of something Bob Dylan once sang in the sixties, when he was referring to a teen preacher: "It seems to be, you're like me, hope you're satisfied."

 

[KingJ]

I'm unsure why you are arguing with me. I've never said sin is a good idea, it's not. Many religious people tend to think of "sins" in a very physical sense, such as theft, rape, murder, lying, etc. Obviously this harms other people and we should strongly oppose, but sin is much deeper than that. I lose patience with conservative Christians who condemn other people for being sinners, as if they are any better, which they are not.

I'm reminded of something Bob Dylan once sang in the sixties, when he was referring to a teen preacher: "It seems to be, you're like me, hope you're satisfied."

Your words allude to you not dealing with the seriousness of degrees of sin. On all other matters, we agree.

Today, degrees of sin are an important fact to grasp and not water down. We are living as in the days of Sodom, where people who are homosexual can attend church without conviction to turn from their sin.

God destroyed Sodom because their sins were grievous. Whenever we discuss sin today, we have to mention the importance of judging ourselves and others righteously. And that involves discerning the degree of sin we are in.

Paul would not and did not continue in any mortal sin. When he said what he did in Romans 7:15, he was alluding to venial sins. Such an important fact. If we omit this from a sermon or thread discussing sin, we are being false teachers, pushing a half-truth.

---------------

Your thread title is 'must we condemn sinners'. You proceed to explain that all are sinners and seem to blur the lines on sin. You need to better explain how you want to define 'condemn'.

Your OP should have mentioned that only God can condemn someone to hell. Humans were permitted by God to action a graphic and violent death by stoning, judge all matters 1 Cor 6, remove mortal sinners from church meetings 1 Cor 5:1 and advised to not eat at the same table as people calling themselves Christians and yet being in unrepentant sin 1 Cor 5:11.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

Your words allude to you not dealing with the seriousness of degrees of sin. On all other matters, we agree.

Today, degrees of sin are an important fact to grasp and not water down. We are living as in the days of Sodom, where people who are homosexual can attend church without conviction to turn from their sin.

God destroyed Sodom because their sins were grievous. Whenever we discuss sin today, we have to mention the importance of judging ourselves and others righteously. And that involves discerning the degree of sin we are in.

Paul would not and did not continue in any mortal sin. When he said what he did in Romans 7:15, he was alluding to venial sins. Such an important fact. If we omit this from a sermon or thread discussing sin, we are being false teachers, pushing a half-truth.

---------------

Your thread title is 'must we condemn sinners'. You proceed to explain that all are sinners and seem to blur the lines on sin. You need to better explain how you want to define 'condemn'.

Your OP should have mentioned that only God can condemn someone to hell. Humans were permitted by God to action a graphic and violent death by stoning, judge all matters 1 Cor 6, remove mortal sinners from church meetings 1 Cor 5:1 and advised to not eat at the same table as people calling themselves Christians and yet being in unrepentant sin 1 Cor 5:11.

A primary reason God destroyed Sodom was just like the modern Untied States, she was a proud people who had an abundance of food and idleness, who failed to help the poor and needy.

Ezekiel 16:48-50
"As I live,” says the Lord God, “neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit."

First Sodom was full of pride, abundance and idleness. Then Sodom refused to help the poor and needy. Third, they were given over to all manner of sexual perversion. There is a pattern portrayed here by the prophet Ezekiel, just like the United States; first a, then b, then c.

 

[KingJ]

@Richard Aberdeen

According to the Bible, God does not want to condemn anyone, nor does he want to condemn us to torment in hell. But apart from forgiveness from Jesus, our sins remain uncovered and God "cannot look upon sin."

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." -- 2nd Peter 3:9

"For God did not send his son into the world so that he might judge the people, but that the people through him, might be saved." -- John 3:17

We all have to choose. No one can do it for us.

I agree that God desires all people to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9), and Scripture is clear that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ezek. 18:23, 33:11).

However, I would be cautious about saying that God does not want to condemn anyone at all. The Bible also teaches that God is perfectly just and that He will judge unrepentant sinners. Judgment is not contrary to His character; it is an expression of His righteousness.

I would also question the phrase "God cannot look upon sin." God clearly sees and judges sin throughout Scripture. The point is not that He is unable to look at sin, but that He is holy and opposed to it.

A better way to state it might be: God desires repentance rather than judgment, yet He delights in justice and will rightly condemn those who reject His provision of salvation in Christ. God does not delight in the destruction of the wicked, but He does delight in the vindication of His righteousness and justice.

 

[KingJ]

A primary reason God destroyed Sodom was just like the modern Untied States, she was a proud people who had an abundance of food and idleness, who failed to help the poor and needy.

Ezekiel 16:48-50
"As I live,” says the Lord God, “neither your sister Sodom nor her daughters have done as you and your daughters have done. Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit."

First Sodom was full of pride, abundance and idleness. Then Sodom refused to help the poor and needy. Third, they were given over to all manner of sexual perversion. There is a pattern portrayed here by the prophet Ezekiel, just like the United States; first a, then b, then c.

You are dancing, what exactly is the point you trying to make? Sodom was not destroyed because their sin was grievous?

Sounds like you are building up to a point? Sodom was not LGBTQ++?