Is it Okay to Condemn Sinners?

[Richard Aberdeen]

You're making this discussion difficult. You keep ignoring the arguments I've made. A discussion works by taking the other person's points, addressing them, and then presenting your own. Instead, you simply jump back to your tunnel vision theology of 'sin is sin, full stop'.

You answered "No" to my question that Paul would not have been used by God to write two-thirds of the New Testament if, after his conversion, he had continued as a rapist, murderer, or other unrepentant grievous sinner.

Yet, having conceded that point, you immediately put it aside and return to repeating, "sin is sin,".

I've never denied that all people are sinners. I've agreed with that from the beginning. What I keep saying and what you continue to avoid, is that Scripture also teaches there are degrees of sin, degrees of judgment, and degrees of consequence.

When we blur those distinctions, we risk giving false comfort to people living in serious, unrepentant sin. Instead of calling them to urgently repent, we encourage them to think, "Well, everyone sins, so my situation is no different.".

We are told to judge ourselves 1 Cor 11:31 and work out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12. When we do this, on our knees before God, we ask ourselves, ''ok, so the sin I committed today, what does it tell God about my love for Him? Today, did I make mistakes of sin that upset God at the level that He has thoughts of sending me to a very public, graphic and violent death by stoning? Or did I steal candy from the candy store?''

You stumble weak believers into not properly examining themselves by blurring the lines on degrees of sin.

It's like you did not grasp the relevance of your answer to my Yes or No question. Absolutely insanity. ''Yes KingJ, God would not have used Paul if after conversion he was a rapist. Oh and by the way sin is sin, if Paul rapes or steals candy from the candy store, its the same thing..........cough cough cough......''

Sin is sin (true) and sin has degrees (true). You should not teach one without the other.

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Here are ten clear instance where degrees of sin are raised. Meditate on these and their relevance to our self judgement 1 Cor 11:31.

1. Jesus explicitly speaks of a "greater sin."
   • John 19:11
   • "He who delivered Me unto thee hath the greater sin."
   • Argument: If one sin is "greater," then not all sins are equal in severity.
2. Jesus speaks of "weightier matters" of God's law.
   • Matthew 23:23
   • "...the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith..."
   • Argument: Jesus Himself teaches that some commandments carry greater moral weight.
3. Different punishments at the Judgment.
   • Luke 12:47-48
   • "That servant... shall be beaten with many stripes... he that knew not... shall be beaten with few stripes."
   • Argument: Different punishment requires different degrees of guilt.
4. Paul orders church discipline for incest.
   • 1 Corinthians 5:1-5
   • Paul does not merely say, "We're all sinners."
   • He commands the church to remove the man and deliver him to Satan.
   • Argument: If all ongoing sins were treated identically, Paul would not single out this case for such severe discipline.
5. Some sins lead to death.
   • 1 John 5:16-17
   • "There is a sin unto death... All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."
   • Argument: John explicitly distinguishes between sins.
6. Teachers receive stricter judgment.
   • James 3:1
   • "...knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation."
   • Argument: Greater judgment implies greater accountability.
7. The Old Testament prescribed different penalties for different sins.
   • Murder = death.
   • Adultery = death.
   • Homosexual acts = death (Leviticus 20:13).
   • Theft = restitution.
   • False witness = varying penalties.
   • Argument: God Himself established differing punishments because He distinguishes between offences.
8. God repeatedly calls certain sins "greater abominations."
   • Ezekiel 8:6, 13, 15
   • God tells Ezekiel:
     • "You shall see greater abominations."
     • "...yet again thou shalt see greater abominations."
   • Argument: God literally ranks sins by severity.
9. Sodom's sin was described as "very grievous."
   • Genesis 18:20
   • "Because their sin is very grievous."
   • Argument: Scripture doesn't merely say they sinned; it says their sin reached an exceptional level.
10. Some sins exclude people from inheriting the Kingdom if persisted in.
    • 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    • Galatians 5:19-21
    • Paul lists specific lifestyles and warns:
      • "...they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
    • Argument: Paul does not merely say "everyone sins." He specifically warns against persistent, unrepentant sins that place salvation in jeopardy.

Your arguments contradict Jesus and the Bible. Jeremiah 17:9 clearly states, that the human heart is deceitful and above all, desperately wicked. Modern science research has confirmed this to be true. You are claiming that you somehow are not as bad as other people, which is known to be a lie by both Jeremiah and modern science.

All human beings, including me and including you, possess a sinful nature, a heart that is deceitful and above all, desperately wicked. This is why Jesus died and you are clearly contradicting the reality of the nature of human beings.

 

[KingJ]

Your arguments contradict Jesus and the Bible. Jeremiah 17:9 clearly states, that the human heart is deceitful and above all, desperately wicked. Modern science research has confirmed this to be true. You are claiming that you somehow are not as bad as other people, which is known to be a lie by both Jeremiah and modern science.

All human beings, including me and including you, possess a sinful nature, a heart that is deceitful and above all, desperately wicked. This is why Jesus died and you are clearly contradicting the reality of the nature of human beings.

Richard you're still arguing against something I never said.

I agree with Jeremiah 17:9. I agree that all people are sinners that the human heart is desperately wicked and that we all need Christ.

What I disagree with is your conclusion that therefore all sins are equal in severity.

Jesus Himself spoke of a "greater sin" (John 19:11) "weightier matters" of the law (Matthew 23:23) and different degrees of punishment (Luke 12:47-48).

So the issue is not whether we are all sinners. We are. The issue is whether Scripture recognizes degrees of sin guilt and judgment. It clearly does.

"All are sinners" and "some sins are greater than others" are not contradictory statements. The Bible teaches both.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

Richard you're still arguing against something I never said.

I agree with Jeremiah 17:9. I agree that all people are sinners that the human heart is desperately wicked and that we all need Christ.

What I disagree with is your conclusion that therefore all sins are equal in severity.

Jesus Himself spoke of a "greater sin" (John 19:11) "weightier matters" of the law (Matthew 23:23) and different degrees of punishment (Luke 12:47-48).

So the issue is not whether we are all sinners. We are. The issue is whether Scripture recognizes degrees of sin guilt and judgment. It clearly does.

"All are sinners" and "some sins are greater than others" are not contradictory statements. The Bible teaches both.

I didn't say that. I said that all sinners are equally guilty before God, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." You are no better than anyone else. You and I and every other human have the same deceitful and desperately wicked heart.

That is the conclusion of Romans chapter 1 and what Jesus taught his followers. One of the main sins of the Pharisees is that they thought they were better than the common people who Jesus hung out with. Jesus "knew what was in" people. That is, ALL people.

Everyone is guilty of breaking God's law, which is singular, not plural as in laws. I challenge you to find anywhere in Paul's letters where he refers to God's laws in the plural. He does not ever do that.

This is what Romans 2:1 states, which is the conclusion of chapter one and belongs in chapter one: "Therefore, you are inexcusable, O one, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."

We are all guilty of Romans chapter one--all human beings. As I tried to point out to you, this agrees with the findings of behavioral science.

 

[KingJ]

I didn't say that. I said that all sinners are equally guilty before God, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." You are no better than anyone else. You and I and every other human have the same deceitful and desperately wicked heart.

That is the conclusion of Romans chapter 1 and what Jesus taught his followers. One of the main sins of the Pharisees is that they thought they were better than the common people who Jesus hung out with. Jesus "knew what was in" people. That is, ALL people.

Everyone is guilty of breaking God's law, which is singular, not plural as in laws. I challenge you to find anywhere in Paul's letters where he refers to God's laws in the plural. He does not ever do that.

This is what Romans 2:1 states, which is the conclusion of chapter one and belongs in chapter one: "Therefore, you are inexcusable, O one, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."

We are all guilty of Romans chapter one--all human beings. As I tried to point out to you, this agrees with the findings of behavioral science.

Richard, we're getting closer because you've now changed your position. Originally you argued "sin is sin." Now you're saying "all sinners are equally guilty before God."

Our point of contention is not whether we're all sinners, but that it is unwise / dangerous to stop the discussion there.

When Christians preach only, "We're all sinners," but refuse to preach that Scripture also distinguishes between greater and lesser sins, they risk giving false comfort to people living in serious, unrepentant sin. Instead of calling them to fear God, repent, and turn from their sin, they reassure them that their situation is no different from every other Christian's daily struggle.

That is a dangerous space for a Christion to be in. I would not want to be guilty of that when I meet God on judgement day!

Meditate on the fact that Jesus spoke of a "greater sin." Paul publicly removed the man guilty of incest in 1 Corinthians 5 instead of simply saying, "We're all sinners." John distinguished between "sin unto death" and sin "not unto death." Scripture repeatedly warns that some sins carry greater guilt, greater consequences, and greater judgment.

My concern is that many Christians, often because they don't want to offend people, especially regarding sexual sin, intentionally blur those distinctions. In doing so, they risk becoming false teachers by softening God's warnings instead of faithfully proclaiming them.

The most loving thing we can do is tell people the whole truth. Yes, we are all sinners in need of Christ. But we must also warn those living in serious, unrepentant sin that they are in grave spiritual danger. That isn't judgmental; it's biblical, and it's loving.

 

[Richard Aberdeen]

Richard, we're getting closer because you've now changed your position. Originally you argued "sin is sin." Now you're saying "all sinners are equally guilty before God."

Our point of contention is not whether we're all sinners, but that it is unwise / dangerous to stop the discussion there.

When Christians preach only, "We're all sinners," but refuse to preach that Scripture also distinguishes between greater and lesser sins, they risk giving false comfort to people living in serious, unrepentant sin. Instead of calling them to fear God, repent, and turn from their sin, they reassure them that their situation is no different from every other Christian's daily struggle.

That is a dangerous space for a Christion to be in. I would not want to be guilty of that when I meet God on judgement day!

Meditate on the fact that Jesus spoke of a "greater sin." Paul publicly removed the man guilty of incest in 1 Corinthians 5 instead of simply saying, "We're all sinners." John distinguished between "sin unto death" and sin "not unto death." Scripture repeatedly warns that some sins carry greater guilt, greater consequences, and greater judgment.

My concern is that many Christians, often because they don't want to offend people, especially regarding sexual sin, intentionally blur those distinctions. In doing so, they risk becoming false teachers by softening God's warnings instead of faithfully proclaiming them.

The most loving thing we can do is tell people the whole truth. Yes, we are all sinners in need of Christ. But we must also warn those living in serious, unrepentant sin that they are in grave spiritual danger. That isn't judgmental; it's biblical, and it's loving.

You are wrong about the base nature of people. No one can please God by obedience to the law. We are all sinners and sin is indeed sin to God, whether you think so or not.

Romans 3:20 "Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in his sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." According to Paul, the law was given as a teacher, so that we will know we are sinners, not that God is naive and thought we could please him by obeying it. Because our sins are covered through forgiveness from Jesus, we are "not under the law, but under grace."

The Old Covenant is the law. The New Covenant is grace. Under grace, there is no law. Many Christians are confused because they hear the wrong term "New Testament", instead of what the Bible calls it, "New Covenant". The Bible refers to the Old Covenant and New Covenant, not the old and new testaments. And many Christians wrongly teach that we are under the law or Christian religious rules, regulations and/or traditions. Under grace, there is no such thing; Galatians is very clear concerning this.

This is what people are really like apart from salvation in Jesus. It is not about degrees of sin, it is that we by nature are sinners and we cannot please God apart from forgiveness. A sinner is unable to obey God all of the time, even if we want to. Romans 3:20 clearly says we are no better than anyone else, which is what I told you:

From Romans 3: "What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
As it is written:

“There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.
Their throat is an open tomb
With their tongues they have practiced deceit;
The poison of asps is under their lips;
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.
Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Destruction and misery are in their ways;
And the way of peace they have not known.
There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

This is what the Bible says is true of all people apart from Jesus saving us from our sins.

At the bottom line, we cannot save ourselves, which is what is wrong with all religions, self-help systems and philosophies, which cannot change a single moral hair on our heads.