Is it faith alone??

[brakelite]

Hi Stan. It was through the faith of Abraham that all nations were to be blessed. We are to have that same faith. The faith must result in something. That soemthing is a transformation in the human character. We cannot enter heavne as we are. Until we were born again we were habitual sinners. The righteousness of Christ is not a blindfold that obscures who we are, but a day by day infusing of God's power that changes our characters, making us fit for the kingdom. In short, Christ's blood grants us the licence or officila permit for our entrance into heaven, (justification),while His ministry toward us from the heavenly sanctuary through the Holy Spirit grants us the fitness we require to enter heaven. (Sanctification). We receive both by faith as both must esentially be gifts, but both are necessary. So yes, faith is all we need, but for what????

 

[Stan53]

Hi Stan. It was through the faith of Abraham that all nations were to be blessed. We are to have that same faith. The faith must result in something. That soemthing is a transformation in the human character. We cannot enter heavne as we are. Until we were born again we were habitual sinners. The righteousness of Christ is not a blindfold that obscures who we are, but a day by day infusing of God's power that changes our characters, making us fit for the kingdom. In short, Christ's blood grants us the licence or officila permit for our entrance into heaven, (justification),while His ministry toward us from the heavenly sanctuary through the Holy Spirit grants us the fitness we require to enter heaven. (Sanctification). We receive both by faith as both must esentially be gifts, but both are necessary. So yes, faith is all we need, but for what????

Hi,

Our faith does result in something... righteousness. We don't enter heaven. What we receive for our salvation, is Eternal LIFE. Matthew 25:46b...but the righteous to eternal life.
Also, Revelation 21:6-7, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children.
We are fit for the kingdom the day we confess Jesus. That's when we enter His kingdom. Hebrews 11 tells us ALL about faith, what it is, and what it accomplishes.

 

[jari]

Final points to note:
Judgment is inevitable.
Christians shall be judged.
Works are a crucial element in the judgment.
There are only two outcomes. Life or death.
Judgment, logically, comes before sentence.
In the case of the church judgment comes essentially before the second coming.

Im quoting part of your post only because it's lengthty. Now why do you believe in such works-based salvation? Most the verses you provided don't clearly have anything to do with salvation. (Matthew 7:21 Matthew 18:23 Matthew 25:31 and Revelation 3:5 but this one only if you aren't saved yet).

Your leaving some crucicial scripture out when building your theology. Bible actually teaches that God gives us the faith. We can increase in it but it was really God who gave us faith in first place to save us.
But bible also teaches christian is sealed with holy spirit Once he becomes a believer. So this is the God's standard of what it means to believe and have faith. One can have different levels of faith but it was God who gave all the believers Holy spirit. Eph 1:13, Heb 12:2

i think you are missing lot in your theology... pretty much everything that Bible says about God's grace and how He saves us. your ignoring all this to say salvation is somehow earnable and we must do works to earn it. or have more faith but it really is works that you insist would be key to salvation.


Tit 3:4-7 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, (5) Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (6) Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (7) That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Here bible says that our works did not save us. But we have been saved (past tense) by God's mercy. And what God did for us that He washed us and Gave the Holy spirit.
this leaves no room for making your self worthy and justified for salvation..
we are already justified by grace.

if salvation would be earnable God wouldn't have really bought us nor would Jesus sacrafice would be sufficient:


Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.



Its faith that saves:

Luk 7:48-50 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven. (49) And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also? (50) And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

there was no works involved in this persons faith but mere faith that saved her.


Salvation is of Grace and instant. we know this because bible says God gives us holy spirit at point of salvation. Why else would he do that? certainly our faith is good for God if He gives holy spirit to us:

Gal 3:13-14 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: (14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.



Salvation isn't about what we can accomplish. It's just about believing in Jesus and asking for that Water of life:


Joh 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.



Joh 4:13-15 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: (14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (15) The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.


Salvation is also initiated by God:

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Meeting God, drinking that water of life makes us born again, new creation and His children:


Rev 21:6-7 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. (7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


Salvation is always decribed in scriptures as singular and instant event, never a progress , never earnable. Only believable and askable.


God bless you

 

[brakelite]

Jari, just one example. How can you claim that Matthew 7:21 has nothing to do with salavtion?????

 

[jari]

Jari, just one example. How can you claim that Matthew 7:21 has nothing to do with salavtion?????

because the verse isn't saying you must do the will of the father to be saved. Because Tit 3 states: Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us

now if God saved us without having done works of rightneusness Mat 7:21 has some other meaning apart from this. Only one option seems to be left and that is that those who are saved will be able to do God's will. But those who are not saved cannot do God's will. why? why would God reveal His will ever to the unsaved?

in few verses before mat 7:21 Jesus was talking about False prophets:

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

And these are people who serve the Lord of course, but bear bad fruit.

which is why Jesus said not everyone who calls him Lord will enter heaven:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


so the false prophets call Him Lord Lord yet God says he never knew them. Obviously they are people never saved then. If God never knew them and they were False. And they also claimed to have propheticed in God's name but this is where the term false prophet comes from as they did not receive the word they claim to have received from God. As it states God never knew them.. and they were false...

I have seen some people argue that Mat 7 false prophets aren't spoken about from verse 15 to verse 23 but as you can see it talks about false prophecies in verse 22. It really talks about no other group of people than false prophets all the way in the verses I posted.

some people also argue that the phrase "I never knew you" they were possible God's children before but they got lost. but mat 7 is good in showing how Jesus used false prophets who truly never was His sheep as example of who He has never known (as His own).

But because we are saved we are His sheeps and can know God's will and do it. for the false prophets this was never possible as they never had any relationship with God. that's why they really were false in their doings.


Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, ...

 

[brakelite]

Hi Jari, I thank you for your explanation, and I can see where you are coming from. What of John 15 though? The branches are actually attached to the vine...they are 'in Christ' before they are cut off because they don't bear fruit. My undertsanding of this would be that a Christian who does not receive that life giving food from the vine in order to bear the fruit does not have the faith necessary to receive everything he needs to continue abiding in the plant. He doesn't grow, he doesn't mature. He has faith to come to Christ to be saved, but not the faith to accept the power. He likes the idea of heaven, and is willing that Christ be his substitute on the cross, but is not willing to allow Christ to change his life. He clings to his sin. I have known many people like this. They receive the gospel with joy, but the cares of this world, the love of riches, or the temptations of life overcome him. The life of holiness that Christ offers in the stead of his life of sinfulness and selfishness is too much. He is not willing to give up his old habits and his old lifestyle. Even though for a time he was a joyful new convert. Ring a bell with other parables?

 

[jari]

Hi Jari, I thank you for your explanation, and I can see where you are coming from. What of John 15 though? The branches are actually attached to the vine...they are 'in Christ' before they are cut off because they don't bear fruit. My undertsanding of this would be that a Christian who does not receive that life giving food from the vine in order to bear the fruit does not have the faith necessary to receive everything he needs to continue abiding in the plant. He doesn't grow, he doesn't mature. He has faith to come to Christ to be saved, but not the faith to accept the power. He likes the idea of heaven, and is willing that Christ be his substitute on the cross, but is not willing to allow Christ to change his life. He clings to his sin. I have known many people like this. They receive the gospel with joy, but the cares of this world, the love of riches, or the temptations of life overcome him. The life of holiness that Christ offers in the stead of his life of sinfulness and selfishness is too much. He is not willing to give up his old habits and his old lifestyle. Even though for a time he was a joyful new convert. Ring a bell with other parables?

John 15 is about abiding in wine in order to produce fruit. this would only be nesessary for salvation if fruit was recuired to justify person but they arent. same goes with parable of sower. if one doesnt bear fruit but has been saved his salvation wont be undone if he chooses differently from the path God would like him to take in life.
i think the parable of sover has both types of people, who are saved and may or may not produce fruit for reason or another and those who never came to really believe in Christ but were interested in faith matters only for a moment.

 

[WaitingForJesus]

James 2:24 PLAINLY says we are NOT saved by faith alone. If you believe in Sola Fide then you are not Sola Scriptura, and if you claim to be both, then you are a liar. And we all know what Bible says about liars.

 

[Stan53]

James 2:24 PLAINLY says we are NOT saved by faith alone. If you believe in Sola Fide then you are not Sola Scriptura, and if you claim to be both, then you are a liar. And we all know what Bible says about liars.

Actually it says; You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. James does NOT speak about salvation, he speaks about our walk of faith and how it should and must produce faithfull works to show the righteousness we receive from accepting Jesus as our Saviour.

Let's just stick to the language IN scripture and NOT insert Latin sayings to convey doctrine.

 

[jari]

James 2:24 PLAINLY says we are NOT saved by faith alone. If you believe in Sola Fide then you are not Sola Scriptura, and if you claim to be both, then you are a liar. And we all know what Bible says about liars.

i'm not disregarding scripture. but think about this Paul says we are saved through faith (Ephesians 2:8). this seems to contradict what james says. so you have to look closer to what james means and it's not that works save us either, only grace.
and what Paul says about being saved by grace remains true which is has to be, because scripture cannot contradict it self.

 

[WaitingForJesus]

Paul does not say we are saved by faith alone. Paul teaches that we are saved from our past sins trough faith and are delivered from slavery of sin and become slaves of righteousness. Now when we enter new dispensation of our life, we can still backslide as Parable of the Sower declares.

 

[WaitingForJesus]

Actually it says; You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone. James does NOT speak about salvation, he speaks about our walk of faith and how it should and must produce faithfull works to show the righteousness we receive from accepting Jesus as our Saviour.

Let's just stick to the language IN scripture and NOT insert Latin sayings to convey doctrine.

You say unrighteous people can go to Heaven?

 

[Boanerges]

My friend, let Christ be your righteousness, non other is acceptable to God.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[David777]

Hello brakelite.

Remember I mentioned referencing, I found the
site that you extracted your last post "sdanet at issue".
Notice that they did not reference the quote from
Spurgeon, this is not an unintentional mistake.
Nor did you reference your extract from the sda
site.

Spurgeon was not a legalist brakelite as I will
demonstrate below. I find it very interesting
that the sda organization would do this.

I would seriously consider the integrity of this
organization if I was you brakelite. For an official site
this is simply not acceptable. It is plagiarism, breaking
the law.

Spurgeon states exactly what we state re: the law.

A Sermon
(No. 1325)
Delivered on Lord's-Day Morning, November 19th, 1876, by
C. H. SPURGEON,

First, then, CHRIST IN CONNECTION WITH THE LAW. The law is that which, as
sinners, we have above all things cause to dread; for the sting of death is sin, and the
strength of sin is the law....Now, what has our Lord to do with the law? He has everything
to do with it, for he is its end for the noblest object, namely, for righteousness. He is the
"end of the law." What does this mean? I think it signifies three things: first, that Christ is
the purpose and object of the law; secondly, that he is the fulfillment of it; and thirdly,
that he is the termination of it.


Your sda site is very interesting brakelite.

Source: "sdanet".

...Haloviak here presents an historical analysis of different views of the work and role of

Ellen White that existed both during and in the years immediately following her death.

Noting that "a score or more" of those who "were regarded as the most dynamic preachers

and leaders within the church" near the turn of the century, had, within the next decade,

not only left the church but were "working actively against" it, he says, "The question to

resolve is why did this happen?" He goes on to suggest that "an important reason relates

to their mistaken concepts of the role of the gift of prophecy within the church and the

disunity that erupted within the church over those concepts of the role of Ellen White".

He sees these "varying understandings of the role for the writings of Ellen White" as

fitting into "two broad categories" which he labels "exegetical" and "non-exegetical"

functions. Demonstrating how "mistaken concepts" in these areas played a vital role in the

changed attitudes of some described above, he concludes that understanding how this

dynamic works and developing correct concepts of the use and relevance of her writings is

vital for us today.

These dynamic preachers not only left the sda church
they actively opposed it brakelite. This is not common
in churches, the active opposition is revealing. I am also
aware that people do leave the sda all the time, some
write books opposing the sda organization. The fact
that this is mentioned on their website is most troubling
to say the least.

The sda will always be in crisis brakelite, it has written
material that is not acceptable. You do not need to
look far to find people willing to denounce the
organization. I have also noticed this behavior with
the JW organization.

 

[Xian Pugilist]

how familiar

I wish when people were cutting and pasting pet topics they would at least change them up. This is on a half dozen boards at least.

Works won't save you.

Works are an undeniable and unforgeable result of what saves you.

So, if you don't have works you aren't saved, because you lack what is required to be saved, faith.

Any obedience to God's word that you do is Him in you, not you earning the right to be in Him.

The determinant for if you are in Him is 1 john 4:16-18.

Love.

The love, agapao, of the Xian, requires the demonstration/works, or it is not the love discussed by Christ. Anyone who denies works, denies Christ. Anyone who lives behind their works to claim christ, never has met Him.

Every line is scripture.

This passage is one of the most abused and least understood passages in the Bible.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Grace = Charis
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Grace is indeed a free gift but what sort of gift is it?

Grace is the divine influence on the heart of man and grace teaches us.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

The grace of God BRINGS salvation when we put it to use through faith. Faith is the working principle that activates grace in our lives. Faith is the DOING part or the WORK that we must do.

This is why Paul wrote...

2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

You see we are to WORK TOGETHER with God otherwise we receive grace to NO EFFECT.

God is the AUTHOR of salvation not us, yet we MUST OBEY and yield to the working of the author in us. If you don't obey you will not be saved.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Look at what James wrote...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers[/SIZE] of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

You are a doer of the word when you are obeying God thus being a worker together with Him.

Compliments of Scott Wilson

 

[Xian Pugilist]

My friend, bless your little heart, I hope you aren't an old goat, matthew 25, last parable....

My friend, let Christ be your righteousness, non other is acceptable to God.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
1Co 1:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

 

[jari]

Paul does not say we are saved by faith alone. Paul teaches that we are saved from our past sins trough faith and are delivered from slavery of sin and become slaves of righteousness. Now when we enter new dispensation of our life, we can still backslide as Parable of the Sower declares.

sorry but you are really stating something that's not in bible . where does paul say we are saved from our past sins? all ive ever read is that we are saved. and i take that means saved as in opposite of lost. can you show from scripture that what you believe is true?
thank you

 

[jari]

The love, agapao, of the Xian, requires the demonstration/works, or it is not the love discussed by Christ. Anyone who denies works, denies Christ. Anyone who lives behind their works to claim christ, never has met Him.

Every line is scripture.

can you show from scripture that those things you stated are true? if you cannot what you said has no credibility whatsoever.
thank you

 

[bgsda]

Im interested on your opinions on these verses in Rev.20:11 and on talking about the throne judgement in the end times? Why is when the Book is mentioned our works is mentioned and we will be judged by them? Same as Rev. 22 and many other texts O.T and N.Ti

 

[Boanerges]

You are to kind in your condescension.
Jesus preached to the lost and to practicing Jews, perhaps one should look to the doctrine He gave the church after it's birth in the Book of Acts. Our righteousness (His righteousness in us) should flow as we abide in the Vine. It is when the very nature of Christ is manifest in and through us by the Holy Ghost that we are truly pleasing to God.

The Word of God (as always) says it best:


Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Rom 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


Php 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.


Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.