Is Hell just separation from God or a place of horrendous eternal punishment as the Bible states?

[KingJ]

KingJ -- tortures is something that people do to other people out of meanness -- over and over again to see that other person suffer and suffer off and on or until they die. It's a very sick person

I could not agree more with you Sue. Please re-read some posts here of others. There are some espousing God does this.

who will do that to another human being.

Not just a human. Who would do that to an animal or an insect. Only a really messed up and wicked person! You and I cannot even properly grasp such wickedness. Even more so as we have the mind of Christ which has no darkness in it all. Now some would insinuate God does such and worse. Like Dante's inferno. Or all those writing books on how torturous hell is going to be bad.

We Are talking about God and His perfect justice compared to what other people or an entity /satan/ and the beast and false prophet who are doing the best they can to deceive human beings Away from the Loving God who created us and provided a perfect environment. Those three people / entities / know exactly who / what they are and what is going to happen to them.

Sue, I just cannot reconcile how you are ok with what all would interpret as God torturing these three. A person who tortures only 1 out of a thousand people is till wicked. There is no torture. Nobody, not even these three are tortured. They are punished. Not tortured.

The rest of us are human beings who God has made salvation possible For. There's No reason at all, for any of us to end up in the lake of fire and brimstone for eternity.
All of mankind has sinned and deserve hell -- yes -- but God has shown us -- all of us -mercy -- He provided for Our salvation. We accept it or reject it.

No offence, but not sure why you keep stating this. Yes, it is true. But this is not the thread topic.

 

[Sue D.]

King J -- we seem to be going over and over the same territory. You and I are having this conversation -- I'm not going to go back to read other people's posts and read about what They say that God is doing. I'm More concerned with what You have been sharing. You are on a kick about God's torturing people. And then about how horrible is it when people torture bugs and animals and such. Yes, those are sick minds. And those people - lots of times - turn their attention to people. yes, sick minds of people. We are thankful that there are far more 'good' people around than those few horrible ones.

Torturing insects ? You mean swatting a fly or stepping on ants or killing spiders? Not too many ways to 'torture' an insect. They are Very tiny.

The lake of fire and brimstone -- I Try to remind you of who will be there and why and that it's nothing torturous about it. No one is going to be tying those three people / entities down and putting them in and out of a fire and listen to them moan and groan again and again. Once they're there -- they are there. And they stay there -- no one holding them in place. Like the fiery furnace in the Old Testament that Daniel and his three friends were put into by the king or whoever it was. It was fired up hotter for them on purpose -- but God protected them -- when the door was opened later -- there were 4 men inside -- an angel was in their with them protecting them. I'm picturing That as a kind of situation -- only those three Stay in there forever. But no one is going to be protecting them. It's not torture - it's the negative consequences of their previous activities.

And, yes, KingJ -- your last comment -- sounds like you are Finally getting it. They Were punished , Not tortured.

The thread topic -- Is hell just separation from God or a place of horrendous eternal punishment as the Bible states.

Well -- the Bible Does say what it says. And separation from God For all eternity is Not a 'powder puff' thing.

Well -- seems that a person can talk a subject to death. And it kind of feels like That's what we've been doing.

 

[Dovegiven]

It is obvious. On the subject of God torturing for example, what in the universe is so confusing about ''The message we have heard from the beginning is that God is light with no darkness in Him at all'' 1 John 1:5.

It is when wicked people read the bible and then teach it that we get mixed messages. People have darkness in them. That is why the bible is full of warnings about false teaching and false teachers.

So you would agree at least that when God gave the Law to include the horrible practice of stoning a person to death, that He was righteous to command that punishment, and there was no darkness at all in that? Locking a sinner to die in his sin. Doesn't God determine what is sin and how it ought to be punished, however awful to us?

 

[KingJ]

So you would agree at least that when God gave the Law to include the horrible practice of stoning a person to death, that He was righteous to command that punishment, and there was no darkness at all in that?

Stoning to death was graphic but a quick death. So, yes I would agree. God wanted to send a clear message of how He hated certain mortal sins. If however we picked small stones or took ten minute breaks between throwing a stone, no, I would not agree.

Locking a sinner to die in his sin. Doesn't God determine what is sin and how it ought to be punished, however awful to us?

If something is awful to us it is awful to God. I have typed over ten thousand words in this thread trying my level best to explain that simple fact.

Gen 3:22 = Mankind grasps what is good and evil just as God does.
Psalm 136:1 = Give thanks because God is good.

Now you come along and insinuate God has a different code of ethics to ALL the scripture He has given us.

I know that you and many others are innocent. Have likely not properly thought on it. Eager to just trust God (which is good). But please try meditate further on this. I believe you are all guilty of a gross miss-representation of God.

 

[Sue D.]

@ KingJ. -- You have it turned around. That which is sin to God is sin Period. There are no mortal or immortal sins as some beliefs systems teach.

You've taken two verses from all of Scripture to defend Your position. Now try the Rest of the Bible.

God's 'code of ethics' is the Only code of ethics we need to be following. Well -- traffic laws -- city / state laws, yes, as long as they don't have us going Against God's Word.

I certainly Hope it's good to eagerly trust God. If it's not 'eagerly' at least to be trusting God.

think about it --who in this world is really innocent. God even knows our Thoughts and the Real Intents of our heart.

Don't lots of people want to see God only through their own rose-colored glasses?!

 

[Sue D.]

KingJ -- Re: stoning to death. Depending on the area -- the size and shape of the rocks being thrown. How close the stoners were to the person being stoned. It Could be a long-drawn-out dying event or fairly quickly. Still I wouldn't want to die by getting my head bashed in. And how would someone determine that the person was actually dead.

I just googled 'stoning' -- back in that day -- it was condoned because it was a deterant to crime. It was meant to stop crime much quicker. When people would observe really Bad consequences to bad behavior - it was far less likely to be repeated. Especially because the penalty didn't take 'forever' to be determined and a long time for it to be carried out.

There's so much crime being committed nowdays that it takes a long time for a case to come to court and decisions to be made and carried out. And at times -- jail / prison isn't such a bad place To be. I mean, a roof over your head, 3 meals a day and a place to sleep and showers to take. And lot of places have access to college classes / exercise rooms -- libraries. And granted there Are lots of Bad prisons. But, after all, when a person breaks the law -- kills someone, etc. what Should they expect. They Should expect To suffer in their environment.

People Need to be punished Now for breaking the law.

One article I read states that stoning is still done in countries like Iraq / Iran , etc. And, really, it Can be barbaric in nature.

 

[Dovegiven]

KingJ -- Re: stoning to death. Depending on the area -- the size and shape of the rocks being thrown. How close the stoners were to the person being stoned. It Could be a long-drawn-out dying event or fairly quickly. Still I wouldn't want to die by getting my head bashed in. And how would someone determine that the person was actually dead.

I just googled 'stoning' -- back in that day -- it was condoned because it was a deterant to crime. It was meant to stop crime much quicker. When people would observe really Bad consequences to bad behavior - it was far less likely to be repeated. Especially because the penalty didn't take 'forever' to be determined and a long time for it to be carried out.

There's so much crime being committed nowdays that it takes a long time for a case to come to court and decisions to be made and carried out. And at times -- jail / prison isn't such a bad place To be. I mean, a roof over your head, 3 meals a day and a place to sleep and showers to take. And lot of places have access to college classes / exercise rooms -- libraries. And granted there Are lots of Bad prisons. But, after all, when a person breaks the law -- kills someone, etc. what Should they expect. They Should expect To suffer in their environment.

People Need to be punished Now for breaking the law.

One article I read states that stoning is still done in countries like Iraq / Iran , etc. And, really, it Can be barbaric in nature.

They stoned Paul, left him for dead, but he got up. No doubt that was very painful and disfiguring. Consider what Jesus went through under the will of God. Consider the torment of people in the tribulation. This is not figurative:

Revelation 9:1-12 (KJV)
1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

 

[KingJ]

@ KingJ. -- You have it turned around. That which is sin to God is sin Period. There are no mortal or immortal sins as some beliefs systems teach.

You've taken two verses from all of Scripture to defend Your position. Now try the Rest of the Bible.

God's 'code of ethics' is the Only code of ethics we need to be following. Well -- traffic laws -- city / state laws, yes, as long as they don't have us going Against God's Word.

I certainly Hope it's good to eagerly trust God. If it's not 'eagerly' at least to be trusting God.

think about it --who in this world is really innocent. God even knows our Thoughts and the Real Intents of our heart.

Don't lots of people want to see God only through their own rose-colored glasses?!

Sue, most of your posts are so out of focus and off the topic. It is as though you just want to chat, which is fine. But maybe another thread?

I propose you quote me. Please try focus. Torture vs no torture. Thank you.

 

[KingJ]

They stoned Paul, left him for dead, but he got up. No doubt that was very painful and disfiguring. Consider what Jesus went through under the will of God. Consider the torment of people in the tribulation. This is not figurative:

You are blurring issues. Lets judge properly!

1. Paul's torture

God tests His people. Allows the wicked to test them. He only has this opportunity to properly test us. See what we are made of. He will use it. But He will not test us beyond our ability 1 Cor 10:13. This is God testing ''His people''. e is with us in our suffering Heb 13:5.

Judgement = No evil from God

2. Tribulation

The tribulation shows us a mix of God's instant destruction and then plagues at increasing severities.

If you read Revelations you will see that after every plague it says ''they repented not'' Rev 16:10. Pointing to the fact that God is 'trying' to get them to repent. If we look at those on Egypt. They started off light and got worse. Ten plagues. Ending up in them all losing their first born. Why ten plagues? It points to God trying to get the people to repent and change their rebellion to Him. It points to His ''last ditched'' attempt. This we know is the purpose for the tribulation. His people are raptured. Those on earth require a sifting process.

Judgement = No evil from God

 

[Sue D.]

KingJ -- actually it was Pharoah and those ten plagues. He was plaguing Pharoah and the Egyptians -- and showing His power. God was using Moses to guide the people away from the Pharoah / the Egyptians. They had been in bondage for 400 yrs. or so. The Children of Israel who were being taken away from slavery / bondage.

Stephen was the man who was almost stoned by the people who didn't like the message he was sharing. They Thought he was dead but he wasn't completely. They left him.

Paul was the man who suffered shipwreck and many other hardships for the Name of Christ. He was the one who'd been helping to persecute Christians. God got his attention on the road when he was traveling with some companions.

And You are blurring facts.

Maybe You need to 'focus'. ME 'just wanting to chat'... You simply want to be 'right' in everything. But this is starting to get argumentative.

 

[KingJ]

KingJ -- actually it was Pharoah and those ten plagues. He was plaguing Pharoah and the Egyptians -- and showing His power. God was using Moses to guide the people away from the Pharoah / the Egyptians. They had been in bondage for 400 yrs. or so. The Children of Israel who were being taken away from slavery / bondage.

Stephen was the man who was almost stoned by the people who didn't like the message he was sharing. They Thought he was dead but he wasn't completely. They left him.

Paul was the man who suffered shipwreck and many other hardships for the Name of Christ. He was the one who'd been helping to persecute Christians. God got his attention on the road when he was traveling with some companions.

And You are blurring facts.

Maybe You need to 'focus'. ME 'just wanting to chat'... You simply want to be 'right' in everything. But this is starting to get argumentative.

Sue, if someone else read these posts they would say you are trolling me.

''Actually it was Pharoah''. Why are you saying that? Do you think I don't know that? Did you not read Doves post and my reply together? Why are you talking about Steven? What Has your story on Paul got to do with anything I said? '''I am blurring facts''. Do you even understand why I said that?

One out of ten of your posts make sense.

 

[Sue D.]

@ KingJ -- you know what ? If I were a moderator -- I'd grant you a vacation for a short time. I sent you a 'conversation' 'thing.

Check out what I've said.

And, yes, of Course I've read all the posts.

Get your facts straight.

 

[Dovegiven]

You are blurring issues. Lets judge properly!

1. Paul's torture

God tests His people. Allows the wicked to test them. He only has this opportunity to properly test us. See what we are made of. He will use it. But He will not test us beyond our ability 1 Cor 10:13. This is God testing ''His people''. e is with us in our suffering Heb 13:5.

Judgement = No evil from God

2. Tribulation

The tribulation shows us a mix of God's instant destruction and then plagues at increasing severities.

If you read Revelations you will see that after every plague it says ''they repented not'' Rev 16:10. Pointing to the fact that God is 'trying' to get them to repent. If we look at those on Egypt. They started off light and got worse. Ten plagues. Ending up in them all losing their first born. Why ten plagues? It points to God trying to get the people to repent and change their rebellion to Him. It points to His ''last ditched'' attempt. This we know is the purpose for the tribulation. His people are raptured. Those on earth require a sifting process.

Judgement = No evil from God

Who brought up judgment being evil from God?

Those left behind die by the billions (2/3 of all on earth) by some of those "last ditch" efforts. No, the tribulation plagues were not designed to "sift" people or award them reprieve if they repented. They didn't repent when it was beneficial to repent. God promised before He would avenge His children. On the upside, Christians are spared, and a third of those left behind survive.

God has always wanted all vengeance for wrongs, so is just to pour out His wrath on the abusers of God's people, forcing them to suffer in the flesh for months of misery, then die. The third (why they survive I don't know) will repopulate earth over the next thousand years, then be faced with a last ditch effort by Satan to deceive and to kill, then be cast into the lake of fire forever with all who followed him, men and angels. What of God having the angel release those creatures like that? Righteous. No evil in Him!
Revelation 16:5-7 (KJV)
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

The basis for that vengeance:
Romans 3:5 (KJV)
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Romans 12:19 (KJV)
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 (KJV)
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Hebrews 10:30 (KJV)
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

 

[Sue D.]

@Dovegiven -- what are you referring to as the 'tribulation plagues' ? Possibly Revelation 8 - 9 ?

And, yes, mankind is Now able to repent / get reprieved.

It's the unbelieving Jewish world that will -- during that 7 yr tribulation period - have another chance to accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah. And, yes, Christians will be taken up and out of this earth to avoid the mess that the rest of the world will be enduring.

Yes, God's justice / judgment Is perfect.

 

[Bendito]

And what is your judgement of a very wicked person? A day in a brazen bull? A week? A month? A year? Thousand years? Million years? Billion years? Trillion years? Centillion?

I propose that every person on this planet who is sane will not approve of a minute in a brazen bull. Christians who ignore scripture on how God defines Himself, read the word fire and lend their ears more to books written by some heathens with so much darkness in them who had a bad dream.

We could just keep it simple.....Hell IS a horrendous place.....where the inhabitants are eternally separated from God.

 

[Bendito]

Are you saying good, kind and caring people that do not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour and are not under the blood and covering of His righteousness deserve to be in hell and are equal to really evil people? I find that a bit hard to stomach. Why have kids and gran kids if they can end up in hell?

People are not evil as such - they are mentally sick. We know this today. In Jesus day demons were cast out of mentally disturbed people because they knew no better. We do today. We are no longer in the middle ages. Or do you think schizophrenia is as a result of demons?

People do not go to hell for what they do. They go to hell for what they do not do. Good? Kind? Giving? Loving? Sensitive to others? Wonderful! but if you reject Jesus, you reject LIFE

 

[KingJ]

Who brought up judgment being evil from God?

Those left behind die by the billions (2/3 of all on earth) by some of those "last ditch" efforts. No, the tribulation plagues were not designed to "sift" people or award them reprieve if they repented. They didn't repent when it was beneficial to repent. God promised before He would avenge His children. On the upside, Christians are spared, and a third of those left behind survive.

God has always wanted all vengeance for wrongs, so is just to pour out His wrath on the abusers of God's people, forcing them to suffer in the flesh for months of misery, then die. The third (why they survive I don't know) will repopulate earth over the next thousand years, then be faced with a last ditch effort by Satan to deceive and to kill, then be cast into the lake of fire forever with all who followed him, men and angels. What of God having the angel release those creatures like that? Righteous. No evil in Him!
Revelation 16:5-7 (KJV)
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

The basis for that vengeance:
Romans 3:5 (KJV)
5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)

Romans 12:19 (KJV)
19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 (KJV)
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Hebrews 10:30 (KJV)
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

God does not go through the motions with '''plagues'''. God has a purpose to everything He does. Torture and cruelty on the wicked is NOT His plan with plagues. He is sifting through the wicked. Otherwise why not just destroy them all? God has never ever tortured with His wrath on the wicked. All those who repent and reject the mark of the beast / IE All those who grasp His frustration (evidenced by plagues that increase in severity) with wickedness will be saved. Anyone who dies for Jesus and rejects the anti-christ goes to heaven Rev 2:10.

The fact that scripture says '''they repented not''' and then onto a worse plague IS evidence of the reason for the plagues. You read but you don't read.

Those that go on into the millennium are not any wicked who ''repented not''. Those who repented not after plague after plague of God's increasing frustration on them, are sold out to a love of wickedness (obviously?) and will not be the people He sends into the millennium. They will be destroyed. Or we Christians who reign with Jesus will surely put them in prison and give them the death penalty. Knowing hell be inevitable for them as they are surely sold out to wickedness.

Those who live on into the millennium are a remnant of the Jews and I believe all babies and mentally handicapped who died over the ages. They have never been tested. There is a verse that says none will stay young in the millennium. It is also the last time the devil is released / used to test mankind Rev 20:3.

 

[KingJ]

Righteous. No evil in Him!

Agreed, so why do you keep cherry picking scripture and pushing the opposite narrative? If EVERY person on this planet had the option to vote on torture being wicked or not, can you imagine what their vote will be?

Google the Geneva convention. If you propose God will be like the Russians at that time that never signed it, you are miss-representing Him.

 

[KingJ]

Revelation 16:5-7 (KJV)
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

Stop cherry picking verses. Lets look closer at the actual plagues and keep in mind that you are looking for evidence of ''torture''. IE Brazen bull. Or ''gasp'' a day or two in fire (I can't even think of eternity in it).

In verse 3: And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

''Blood of a dead man''. Every living creature died. We know God loves all animals and wants to spare them from His wrath Jonah 4:11. So it is safe to assume that God give them a ''quick'' death. This ''blood of a dead man'' will be very toxic and kill humans quick too. No ''Saddam Hussein' style impure mustard gas fired on Kurds.

In verse 8: And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

Think of this verse for some context Gen 19:28 And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and, lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.

When God destroyed Sodom with fire He did so 'properly'. There was no brazen bull torture. There was no fire, water, fire, water torture. It was a case of fire and brimstone in full force on them. Like a furnace. The same will be done by this angel when he scorches the earth. Unless you believe God is partial? He destroys the very wicked in Sodom swiftly but takes His time with those in the tribulation? God is not partial Acts 10:34.

 

[KingJ]

Rev 16:10-11 and something like the ebola virus are the hard cruelties to defend Him on.

Rev 16:10-11 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

The ebola virus can be grasped in context of human sin corrupting earth. Granted God created those viruses that can cause it. It is a cruel way to die. I do believe God is not directly to blame though. Suffering from the earth is on us. Scripture mentions when God pours His wrath out and it is always a quick death. Unless a plague where He is trying to get people to repent. Which brings me to Rev 16:10-11. Read the underlined together. '''gnawed tongues in pain, blaspheme God, repented not'' = plague = God ''frustrated'' with them. Wanting them to repent and change! Otherwise why the plague? Plagues will be harsh. No argument there! But let's grasp God's intent with them.

When these wicked people land up in hell, a place of eternal separation. They will have no argument against God. ''God why for eternity?" God will say ''You knew my frustration with your wickedness. There was no 'blur'. No 'atheist' type excuses. Plague after plague, increasing in severity and you repented not. Each time, no change. You are hard-hearted. You love what is wicked full measure. That is why you are eternally separated''.