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Intellectualism vs. True Religion. Your thoughts?

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Ok You can compare how God works in the dispensation of the law vs how He works in this dispensation of Grace....You won't get the same answer for both. Under the covenant of law, God did enforce His Word. If the people broke covenant, the law came down on them. In the case you quoted, out of context, God was not visiting punishment on His people. He was coming against an enemy of the people. Read it. You'll see that. But, I forgot. You don't read the Book. Under the covenant of Grace, God allows you to make your own decisions. He tells you how, encourages you, and even rewards you, but He does not punish you or break your leg to teach you something. Read Isa 10, the entire chapter.

Now Mr Quantrill...as to the first part of your question here...Please read the chapter in question...at least to vs 10
12 I have to boast. There is nothing to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in union with the Messiah who fourteen years ago was snatched up to the third heaven; whether he was in the body or outside the body I don’t know, God knows. 3 And I know that such a man — whether in the body or apart from the body I don’t know, God knows — 4 was snatched into Gan-‘Eden and heard things that cannot be put into words, things unlawful for a human being to utter. 5 About such a man I will boast; but about myself I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses. 6 If I did want to boast, I would not be foolish; because I would be speaking the truth. But, because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations, I refrain, so that no one will think more of me than what my words or deeds may warrant. 7 Therefore, to keep me from becoming overly proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from the Adversary to pound away at me, so that I wouldn’t grow conceited. 8 Three times I begged the Lord to take this thing away from me; 9 but he told me, “My grace is enough for you, for my power is brought to perfection in weakness.” Therefore, I am very happy to boast about my weaknesses, in order that the Messiah’s power will rest upon me. 10 Yes, I am well pleased with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions and difficulties endured on behalf of the Messiah; for it is when I am weak that I am strong.
When you surrender your weakness, then the strength of God can work in and for you....Who sends the messengers of Satan?...Who do they work for?......Paul was getting a multitude of revelations, and to kill the enjoyment of that and to pull him down Satan sent the messenger....Read the Book.

Question for you now. If Paul got clobbered there, why would God use that as an example of how we can be victorious?
How did I quote (Is. 10) out of context? Both God's judgement against Israel and Assyria are the context. And as to your statement that God does not punish you to teach you something, how ridiculous is that? (Heb.2:2-3) "For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;...." And (Heb. 10:28-29) "He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hast said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

So, you see the contrast of both covenants. Yet God's judgement is found in both. As to your statement that God will not break your leg to teach you something, that is silly. God will break whatever it takes to teach you something. Be it leg, arm, back or whatever. Of course, if you are not His, He won't waste His time.

As to your question which is, "if Paul got clobbered, why would God use that as how we can be victorious?", who said anything about being victorious. The thorn in the flesh was given to keep him dependent on God, humble before God, not to have him gloriously victorious. He was already victorious in how God was going to use him and reveal to him things not known before.

Why would satan give Paul a thorn in the flesh so he would not be exalted above measure? (2 Cor. 12:7) Are you saying satan wanted Paul humbled before God.? Are you saying satan had God's interests in mind?

Quantrill
 
Yeah....I think I'll let Mr Quantrill open a thread of he wants to continue the argument. :grin:
I did open a new thread considering Job if you care to continue. I do think Pauls experience is pertinent to this discussion as the thorn in the flesh is due to his much knowledge and revelation he has been given. But we can continue in the Job thread.
 
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How did I quote (Is. 10) out of context? Both God's judgement against Israel and Assyria are the context. And as to your statement that God does not punish you to teach you something, how ridiculous is that? (Heb.2:2-3) "For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation;...." And (Heb. 10:28-29) "He that despised Moses law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hast said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

So, you see the contrast of both covenants. Yet God's judgement is found in both. As to your statement that God will not break your leg to teach you something, that is silly. God will break whatever it takes to teach you something. Be it leg, arm, back or whatever. Of course, if you are not His, He won't waste His time.

As to your question which is, "if Paul got clobbered, why would God use that as how we can be victorious?", who said anything about being victorious. The thorn in the flesh was given to keep him dependent on God, humble before God, not to have him gloriously victorious. He was already victorious in how God was going to use him and reveal to him things not known before.

Why would satan give Paul a thorn in the flesh so he would not be exalted above measure? (2 Cor. 12:7) Are you saying satan wanted Paul humbled before God.? Are you saying satan had God's interests in mind?

Quantrill
Let me start here. Heb.2:2-3 What does that say? God breaks your arm to teach you something? Not at all! Why did you use that verse? Show me a single verse where God makes you sick to teach you something....In our covenant please....In the Old Covenant the rules were somewhat different. Then God did punish people, but He still never killed a single human being, and he never broke anyone's leg to teach them something.

Look. I'm going to stop here for a bit....I need you to explain to me why you use Old Covenant to prove your point? The old covenant is not the new covenant....God works differently in both...until this 'dispensation' is done. While you are figuring that out....I'll try to figure out why I'm arguing the Book with someone who doesn't even believe in reading it.
 
Let me start here. Heb.2:2-3 What does that say? God breaks your arm to teach you something? Not at all! Why did you use that verse? Show me a single verse where God makes you sick to teach you something....In our covenant please....In the Old Covenant the rules were somewhat different. Then God did punish people, but He still never killed a single human being, and he never broke anyone's leg to teach them something.

Look. I'm going to stop here for a bit....I need you to explain to me why you use Old Covenant to prove your point? The old covenant is not the new covenant....God works differently in both...until this 'dispensation' is done. While you are figuring that out....I'll try to figure out why I'm arguing the Book with someone who doesn't even believe in reading it.
I used both (Heb. 2:2-3) and (Heb. 10:28-29) to show that God brings judgement on His people under the New Covenant just like He did under the Old. A fact that you questioned.
Are you kidding me? You say God never killed a single human being. You apparently have never read the Old or New Testament. Look in the book of (Exodus) where Israel sinned with the golden calf. Before that look at the flood in Noah. God killed everyone but 8 souls. In the book of (Acts) God killed Ananias and Sapphira. And how many die in the book of Revelation? The Covenants may change, but God does not change.

What you need to do is answer the question I asked. Why would satan give Paul a thorn in the flesh so he would not be exalted above measure?

Quantrill
 
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I used both (Heb. 2:2-3) and (Heb. 10:28-29) to show that God brings judgement on His people under the New Covenant just like He did under the Old. A fact that you questioned.
Are you kidding me? You say God never killed a single human being. You apparently have never read the Old or New Testament. Look in the book of (Exodus) where Israel sinned with the golden calf. Before that look at the flood in Noah. God killed everyone but 8 souls. In the book of (Acts) God killed Ananias and Sapphira. And how many die in the book of Revelation? The Covenants may change, but God does not change.

What you need to do is answer the question I asked. Why would satan give Paul a thorn in the flesh so he would not be exalted above measure?

Quantrill
The Book does NOT say God killed those people....Did God remove his protection from around them? And Satan took his own? Perhaps...But you judge with no facts, no Word, no evidence....
The Book does not say God killed Ananias and Saphira....It says they dropped dead because they lied to the Holy Spirit. Yet you accuse God with no Word, No facts, no evidence....

As for the people in Noah's flood....I still state emphatically...God did not kill any human beings. You need to study the Book to see what the situation was in Noah's day. Shocking!! According to the Book there was only eight humans left on the Earth...and God saved them.
 
The Book does NOT say God killed those people....Did God remove his protection from around them? And Satan took his own? Perhaps...But you judge with no facts, no Word, no evidence....
The Book does not say God killed Ananias and Saphira....It says they dropped dead because they lied to the Holy Spirit. Yet you accuse God with no Word, No facts, no evidence....
(Gen. 6:13) "And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth."

(Ex. 32:27) "And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every m an his neighbour."

(Acts 5:5-11) "And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost:...Then fell she down straightway at his feet and yielded up the ghost...."

etc. etc. etc.

Quantrill
 
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(Gen. 6:13) "And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth."

(Ex. 32:27) "And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every m an his neighbour."

(Acts 5:5-11) "And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost:...Then fell she down straightway at his feet and yielded up the ghost...."

etc. etc. etc.

Quantrill
Acts 5:5-11 verifies what I said....The Book does not say who killed them. Yet you blame God. Interesting.

Ex. 32:27 I will concede here on this one point....God had to kill three thousand human beings for deliberate rebellious pagan worship....People who were deliberately rebelling against God....I could call it "Cut out the cancer" So there is one place....
You mentioned Noah again.....There were only eight humans left on the planet and God saved all of them.
 
Acts 5:5-11 verifies what I said....The Book does not say who killed them. Yet you blame God. Interesting.

Ex. 32:27 I will concede here on this one point....God had to kill three thousand human beings for deliberate rebellious pagan worship....People who were deliberately rebelling against God....I could call it "Cut out the cancer" So there is one place....
You mentioned Noah again.....There were only eight humans left on the planet and God saved all of them.
Yes, God killed three thousand and God killed a whole lot more in the flood. And God will kill a whole lot more during the Tribulation period as shown in the book of (Revelation.)

I didn't say God did not save Noah and his family. I said God killed everyone else in the world with the flood. You can deny it all day long, yet I have given you Scripture. So, what is your problem?

Now, back to my question in post #(46). Why would satan give Paul a thorn in the flesh so he would not be exalted above measure. (2 Cor. 12:7)

Quantrill
 
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Yes, God killed three thousand and God killed a whole lot more in the flood. And God will kill a whole lot more during the Tribulation period as shown in the book of (Revelation.)

I didn't say God did not save Noah and his family. I said God killed everyone else in the world with the flood. You can deny it all day long, yet I have given you Scripture. So, what is your problem?

Now, back to my question in post #(46). Why would satan give Paul a thorn in the flesh so he would not be exalted above measure. (2 Cor. 12:7)

Quantrill
I thought we were talking about this on the Job thread....I'll take this over there.
 
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Right here.

Come on over! Might want to bring your shield and sword. :grin:
Well, I came over to this thread to see what Sue had to say. Since I'm here I'll say again. The word religion makes my skin crawl....It's always mixed with intellectualism and is usually a mix of myth, lies, superstition and mores and taboos...not to mention charms and, well I'll leave it there.
 
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Well, I came over to this thread to see what Sue had to say. Since I'm here I'll say again. The word religion makes my skin crawl....It's always mixed with intellectualism and is usually a mix of myth, lies, superstition and mores and taboos...not to mention charms and, well I'll leave it there.
Yup I don't like the word religion either (or the connotations that this word has nowadays).
 

Jim

I have been pondering this subject and I would be interested in your thoughts. I don't have a lot of scriptures prepared but may have more later.

What are your thoughts on intellectualism as it relates to religion? We are told to search the scriptures for answers. There is much theological debate which isn't necessarily bad, but it is bad if we are simply living a "mental" religion.

Thoughts?
We must become as little children for of such is The Kingdom of Heaven made up of. It requires a trusting childlike quality to be born again. Spirituality is not an intellectual pursuit. I received my B.S from a major engineering school in mechanical engineering and spent my career staying up to date with physics and the very things I learned in school. However, when it comes to Spiritual Matters, I pray I always put my trust in Christ and never man. I also taught mathematics and engineering at two different universities over my career. However, I do not buy into the world view. My memory isn’t what it used to be but I recall a survey done around 1980 where 80% of biologists did not believe in evolution. Things have changed dramatically since then. The probability of intelligent sentient life occurring at random is virtually impossible given the short periods of time that planets thrive and produce those things necessary for life to exist. When I took astronomy, we were taught that the earth wobbles with an approximate frequency of one cycle every 26,000 years with an ice age every 13,000 years.
 

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