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Intellectualism vs. True Religion. Your thoughts?

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Member
Nicodemus in John 3:1-15 could have blown us all away by his knowledge of the law. He had great intellectual ability, but was blind to the truth of needing to be born again. Intellectual agreement isn't the same as understanding your need for God and your inability to earn it.
 
Active
@KingJ -- Christianity is what God has already done For us by means of the cross. Your comment "Christianity is not a worship of God, but rather worship of God the Father." God IS God the Father.

Judaism -- the Jewish religion -- does not believe that Jesus Christ has come yet. They are still waiting for His coming. They haven't recognized the birth of the promised Messiah. And, yes, that Is 'bad'. Because they / Everyone Does need to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. The promised Messiah.
God and God the Father are ''very'' different names.
 
Loyal
I personally have more problem with the belief that ignorance equates with spirituality. In other words the more ignorant I am about things in the Bible, the less Bible study I have done, then the more the Holy Spirit can just open it all up to me when I get ready to teach or preach. People can be misguided with a little knowledge just as much with a lot of knowledge.

Jesus Christ had a tremendous intellect and used it against the Scribes, Pharisees, and hypocrites. And that beginning at age 12. The apostle Paul, before he was converted, I believe was very intellectual. But his spiritual condition was driving him away from God. Once converted God did not make him ignorant. God now had him and used the intellect he had in a powerful way.

The greatest danger, I believe, in our intellect is that it concerns knowledge. And knowledge is power. That includes Bible knowledge. This is why God had to give Paul a thorn in the flesh because he did have a great amount of revelation and knowledge about God and the Scriptures. And such knowledge will destroy any one unless God first destroys them through some method. And He knows how to do it with each individual.

So, I believe we should become as knowledgeable about God and the Scriptures as we possibly can, but knowing also that such knowledge must be kept in submission to the Holy Spirit and His leading. The more we know about the Bible and God, the more we can be used by Him. But also, we attract the attention of the world, the flesh, and the devil.

It is interesting that 'knowledge' played a role in the fall of the human race. (Gen. 3:5-6) "...and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise...."

Quantrill
Mr Quantrill.....How old were you when your Dad hired a psychopathic killer, a pathological liar to teach you to be a wise and gentle person? A loving person? When was it that he hired a person who spreads disease and poverty to teach you generosity and your love of giving?
That's a pretty stupid question isn't it? There is no way your Dad would have done that! He loves you.
So why do you say God would employ this psychopath to teach Paul? Or to teach you? The answer is simply...He would not. Yes I'm referring to your statement that God sent this thorn thing to buffet Paul. God did not send anything bad onto Paul.
What was the thorn? Who really did send it, and to what purpose? Intellect can't tell you this unless you read the Book. The Book says very clearly what the thorn was, who sent it, and what was done about it....But instead of spending time in the Book to learn the particulars, we listen to 'doctine' backed up by doctrine, none of which lines up with the Book! Look at the situation.
2 Corinthians 12:6-8 (KJV)

6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations,

there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me,

lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
There's Pauls thorn! The messenger of Satan....No, God did not hire this messenger. He belongs to Satan whom we agreed God would not hire. So....Satan sent the messenger to buffet, )flail him with his fists).
Then Paul went running to God, (as he should have done) and God told him how to deal with it. He didn't catch on at first but did eventually. God told him. "My Grace, (My empowering Presence) is sufficient for you....My empowering Presence is sufficient to kick that 'messenger' to the curb. Do it."
Now Paul was very intellectual, as you say, before he met Jesus on the road that day. As you say too, God did not take away his intellect or his knowledge of the Word....God used it. But Paul did not depend on his intellect, He depended on the Word....He spent all his free time in the Word. He grew in the Word.
And you Mr Quantrill....God has given you gifts as well. A good intellect being one of them. God does not take back gifts. He uses them when you surrender them to Him.
Enough for now
 
Loyal
If I may speak up in Quantrill's defense, I think the point being made was... some just want to focus so much on "following the Spirit" that scripture almost becomes irrelevant, and there is no need (or desire) to study it. I have witnessed this at times, where it is almost a matter of pride how "little I know of the scriptures" but God can still lead me or give me inspiration to share and preach etc.

The problem with this is that in these cases, it is not strange for the "Spirit" to be speaking words that don't line up with the Bible.
It's almost a matter of pride how little you know God....Since Jesus is God, is the Word is life.....I fail to see why anyone would not crave to spend mega time in the Word. Soaking it up. Filling every single cell of my entire being with His Word....Anything less is suicide. Anything less is leaving openings for Satan to attack.
 
Active
Mr Quantrill.....How old were you when your Dad hired a psychopathic killer, a pathological liar to teach you to be a wise and gentle person? A loving person? When was it that he hired a person who spreads disease and poverty to teach you generosity and your love of giving?
That's a pretty stupid question isn't it? There is no way your Dad would have done that! He loves you.
So why do you say God would employ this psychopath to teach Paul? Or to teach you? The answer is simply...He would not. Yes I'm referring to your statement that God sent this thorn thing to buffet Paul. God did not send anything bad onto Paul.
What was the thorn? Who really did send it, and to what purpose? Intellect can't tell you this unless you read the Book. The Book says very clearly what the thorn was, who sent it, and what was done about it....But instead of spending time in the Book to learn the particulars, we listen to 'doctine' backed up by doctrine, none of which lines up with the Book! Look at the situation.
2 Corinthians 12:6-8 (KJV)

6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations,

there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me,

lest I should be exalted above measure.

8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
There's Pauls thorn! The messenger of Satan....No, God did not hire this messenger. He belongs to Satan whom we agreed God would not hire. So....Satan sent the messenger to buffet, )flail him with his fists).
Then Paul went running to God, (as he should have done) and God told him how to deal with it. He didn't catch on at first but did eventually. God told him. "My Grace, (My empowering Presence) is sufficient for you....My empowering Presence is sufficient to kick that 'messenger' to the curb. Do it."
Now Paul was very intellectual, as you say, before he met Jesus on the road that day. As you say too, God did not take away his intellect or his knowledge of the Word....God used it. But Paul did not depend on his intellect, He depended on the Word....He spent all his free time in the Word. He grew in the Word.
And you Mr Quantrill....God has given you gifts as well. A good intellect being one of them. God does not take back gifts. He uses them when you surrender them to Him.
Enough for now
Who said anything about God 'hiring' anyone? Not me. Sounds good with you though...doesn't it?

When it says 'there was given to me a thorn in the flesh', who are you saying gave it. satan, or God? Why? Where does satan get this authority?

You say God did not send anything bad to Paul. (Acts 9:16) "For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."

You act as if Paul no longer had a thorn if he believed in the empowering presence of God. Such is not the case. The thorn remained. As Paul said, (2 Cor. 12:9) "...Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." See?

If you think God will not send a messenger of satan, you are very mistaken. Who sent satan to Job? (Job 1:8) Who sent the Assyrian to destroy Israel? (Is. 10:5-7) Who will send the lie? (2 Thess. 2:11-12)

Quantrill
 
Loyal
Who said anything about God 'hiring' anyone? Not me. Sounds good with you though...doesn't it?

When it says 'there was given to me a thorn in the flesh', who are you saying gave it. satan, or God? Why? Where does satan get this authority?

You say God did not send anything bad to Paul. (Acts 9:16) "For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."

You act as if Paul no longer had a thorn if he believed in the empowering presence of God. Such is not the case. The thorn remained. As Paul said, (2 Cor. 12:9) "...Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." See?

If you think God will not send a messenger of satan, you are very mistaken. Who sent satan to Job? (Job 1:8) Who sent the Assyrian to destroy Israel? (Is. 10:5-7) Who will send the lie? (2 Thess. 2:11-12)

Quantrill
I added the part about God hiring Satan because many Christians believe God uses Satan to teach us. No problem.

I'm saying that Satan put this thorn on Paul....Satan is the author of sickness and death. Satan is the father of lies. Satan sent his messenger to torment Paul NOT God. and who said Satan has authority? He'll do whatever he can get away with...especially to Christians. It is a war you know.
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:


14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.


15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:


16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.


17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

OK God was going to show Paul the things he would have to endure. Does the Word say God was going to put these things on Paul....Why do Christians blame God and hold Satan to be the innocent victim? Churchianity!

I'm saying Paul took advantage of the empowering Presence of God and sent that messenger thorn packing. There is no place in the Word that says Paul was stuck with it....Again...Churchianity doctrine. BTW....Paul acted as if he no longer had the thorn!

He said Therefore, I am very happy to boast about my weaknesses, in order that the Messiah’s power will rest upon me.
Why did he say that? God said “My grace is enough for you, for my power is brought to perfection in weakness.”
Wow! Paul saw that every time he had a problem all he had to do was to trust God who would use HIS authority to give Paul the victory over it! Why don't they teach this in church? Instead they teach fiction.

know for a fact that God will not send (employ)Satan or any of his minions for anything. Who "sent" Satan after Job? You read it yourself, I'm assuming....On the other hand, you said you don't like to read the bible.
Satan sent Satan after Job! All God did was to grant permission for him to do that....He protected Jobs life, then He taught Job how to be stronger and then He replaced everything Job had lost to Satan and more.
Religion. It's a horrible thing. Truely, Mr Quantrill, if you would read the Book as it's written you would not get fooled by preachers who do not know the Word.
 
Loyal
Well, it grates on me too which is why I said it. You apparently misunderstand what I was saying. Or, I am misunderstanding what you are saying.

Stranger
Yeah, after reading it over, I realized you were saying the same thing as me! Lol Sorry about that.
 
Loyal
All God did was to grant permission for him to do that
I was reading this reply and going , yeah that's right until I hit this bump in your reply that tends to send ya off into the ditch.

God did not give satan permission. Job did.
Notice satan said God had a hedge around Job. That means satan had been trying a lot to get Job. It was the Blessing of Thee Lord.

God said behold
This means pay attention or listen up.
God told satan (because God does not lie) Job is already in your hands or outside the hedge as satan called it.

Job explains why or how he got there.
He got off into fear and worry and so forth. You know the story Brother.

Blessings
 
Loyal
I was reading this reply and going , yeah that's right until I hit this bump in your reply that tends to send ya off into the ditch.

God did not give satan permission. Job did.
Notice satan said God had a hedge around Job. That means satan had been trying a lot to get Job. It was the Blessing of Thee Lord.

God said behold
This means pay attention or listen up.
God told satan (because God does not lie) Job is already in your hands or outside the hedge as satan called it.

Job explains why or how he got there.
He got off into fear and worry and so forth. You know the story Brother.

Blessings
I was reading this reply and going , yeah that's right until I hit this bump in your reply that tends to send ya off into the ditch.

God did not give satan permission. Job did.
Notice satan said God had a hedge around Job. That means satan had been trying a lot to get Job. It was the Blessing of Thee Lord.

God said behold
This means pay attention or listen up.
God told satan (because God does not lie) Job is already in your hands or outside the hedge as satan called it.

Job explains why or how he got there.
He got off into fear and worry and so forth. You know the story Brother.

Blessings
Yes! You're absolutely right! Jobs fear was the opposite of faith. And fear opened the door for Satan to attack him. Finally!! Yes!
 
Active
Yes! You're absolutely right! Jobs fear was the opposite of faith. And fear opened the door for Satan to attack him. Finally!! Yes!
No. Job feared for his children's good standing with God. He did regular sacrifices for them. Satan said Job was only good because of all that God had blessed him with. IE His fear / respect of God was weak. Not real. Easy, as he had it all. So, God tested Job. Gave satan permission to do that, exactly as you first stated.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one who feared God and shunned evil.

Job 1:4-5 And his sons would go and feast in their houses, each on his appointed day, and would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 So it was, when the days of feasting had run their course, that Job would send and sanctify them, and he would rise early in the morning and offer burnt offerings according to the number of them all. For Job said, “It may be that my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” Thus Job did regularly.

Job 1:6-12 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them. And the Lord said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?” So Satan answered the Lord and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” And the Lord said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person.”

God literally said to satan ''all that he has is in your power'', now where do you guys get the '''Jobs fear was the opposite of faith. And fear opened the door for Satan to attack him'' and @Wired 4 Fishen ''God did not give satan permission. Job did''.
 
Active
I added the part about God hiring Satan because many Christians believe God uses Satan to teach us. No problem.

I'm saying that Satan put this thorn on Paul....Satan is the author of sickness and death. Satan is the father of lies. Satan sent his messenger to torment Paul NOT God. and who said Satan has authority? He'll do whatever he can get away with...especially to Christians. It is a war you know.
13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:


14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.


15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:


16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.


17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

OK God was going to show Paul the things he would have to endure. Does the Word say God was going to put these things on Paul....Why do Christians blame God and hold Satan to be the innocent victim? Churchianity!

I'm saying Paul took advantage of the empowering Presence of God and sent that messenger thorn packing. There is no place in the Word that says Paul was stuck with it....Again...Churchianity doctrine. BTW....Paul acted as if he no longer had the thorn!

He said Therefore, I am very happy to boast about my weaknesses, in order that the Messiah’s power will rest upon me.
Why did he say that? God said “My grace is enough for you, for my power is brought to perfection in weakness.”
Wow! Paul saw that every time he had a problem all he had to do was to trust God who would use HIS authority to give Paul the victory over it! Why don't they teach this in church? Instead they teach fiction.

know for a fact that God will not send (employ)Satan or any of his minions for anything. Who "sent" Satan after Job? You read it yourself, I'm assuming....On the other hand, you said you don't like to read the bible.
Satan sent Satan after Job! All God did was to grant permission for him to do that....He protected Jobs life, then He taught Job how to be stronger and then He replaced everything Job had lost to Satan and more.
Religion. It's a horrible thing. Truely, Mr Quantrill, if you would read the Book as it's written you would not get fooled by preachers who do not know the Word.
(2 Cor. 12:7) "And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure."

Who here does the 'giving'?

What was the purpose of the One who gave it?

Just like with the Assyrian coming against Israel, which I noticed you did not address. (Is. 10:5-7) "O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, ...Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few."

Quantrill
 
Member
I have been pondering this subject and I would be interested in your thoughts. I don't have a lot of scriptures prepared but may have more later.

What are your thoughts on intellectualism as it relates to religion? We are told to search the scriptures for answers. There is much theological debate which isn't necessarily bad, but it is bad if we are simply living a "mental" religion.

Thoughts?
Mark 10:15 "Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."

God wants us to have childlike faith in Him. A child has full trust in their parents for all their needs. We should have that same type of faith in God. Also, I don't think there is anything wrong with questioning God. Not in the sense of questioning Him for the purpose of doing something the way we think it should be done, rather like a child would. They question things that they don't have an answer for, and they wait for their parents to give them an asnwer. They then take this answer as truth. God also wants us to be persistent for an answer. Has a child ever asked you a question until they got the answer? Yup, God wants us to do that as well. :smile:

In peace
 
Active
@ Quantrill -- #13 -- look at Galations 6:11.
Yes, I do know Paul had an eyesight problem. I just don't believe it was his thorn in the flesh. But, as I said, it could have been. Personally I believe we are probably not told for a reason. I think believers need a thorn in the flesh. And God doesn't need to use the same thing on every believer.

Quantrill
 
Active
Back to the topic :smile::

James 2:16 If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that? 17So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead.

We may be well versed in theology and love to debate, yet how is our life "offline"? One disadvantage of an online chat is that words on a page do not give a complete story of a person's life. We can paint a great picture, yet our offline life is what really matters in the end.

I believe that as we interact with Christians in "real life" and are part of a working fellowship, this can help us from becoming intellectual, because our fellow believers can see the fruits of our lives, and can reprove or encourage us.
 
Loyal
(2 Cor. 12:7) "And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure."

Who here does the 'giving'?

What was the purpose of the One who gave it?

Just like with the Assyrian coming against Israel, which I noticed you did not address. (Is. 10:5-7) "O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, ...Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few."

Quantrill
Ok You can compare how God works in the dispensation of the law vs how He works in this dispensation of Grace....You won't get the same answer for both. Under the covenant of law, God did enforce His Word. If the people broke covenant, the law came down on them. In the case you quoted, out of context, God was not visiting punishment on His people. He was coming against an enemy of the people. Read it. You'll see that. But, I forgot. You don't read the Book. Under the covenant of Grace, God allows you to make your own decisions. He tells you how, encourages you, and even rewards you, but He does not punish you or break your leg to teach you something. Read Isa 10, the entire chapter.

Now Mr Quantrill...as to the first part of your question here...Please read the chapter in question...at least to vs 10
12 I have to boast. There is nothing to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in union with the Messiah who fourteen years ago was snatched up to the third heaven; whether he was in the body or outside the body I don’t know, God knows. 3 And I know that such a man — whether in the body or apart from the body I don’t know, God knows — 4 was snatched into Gan-‘Eden and heard things that cannot be put into words, things unlawful for a human being to utter. 5 About such a man I will boast; but about myself I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses. 6 If I did want to boast, I would not be foolish; because I would be speaking the truth. But, because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations, I refrain, so that no one will think more of me than what my words or deeds may warrant. 7 Therefore, to keep me from becoming overly proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from the Adversary to pound away at me, so that I wouldn’t grow conceited. 8 Three times I begged the Lord to take this thing away from me; 9 but he told me, “My grace is enough for you, for my power is brought to perfection in weakness.” Therefore, I am very happy to boast about my weaknesses, in order that the Messiah’s power will rest upon me. 10 Yes, I am well pleased with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions and difficulties endured on behalf of the Messiah; for it is when I am weak that I am strong.
When you surrender your weakness, then the strength of God can work in and for you....Who sends the messengers of Satan?...Who do they work for?......Paul was getting a multitude of revelations, and to kill the enjoyment of that and to pull him down Satan sent the messenger....Read the Book.

Question for you now. If Paul got clobbered there, why would God use that as an example of how we can be victorious?
 
Active
Ok You can compare how God works in the dispensation of the law vs how He works in this dispensation of Grace....You won't get the same answer for both. Under the covenant of law, God did enforce His Word. If the people broke covenant, the law came down on them. In the case you quoted, out of context, God was not visiting punishment on His people. He was coming against an enemy of the people. Read it. You'll see that. But, I forgot. You don't read the Book. Under the covenant of Grace, God allows you to make your own decisions. He tells you how, encourages you, and even rewards you, but He does not punish you or break your leg to teach you something. Read Isa 10, the entire chapter.

Now Mr Quantrill...as to the first part of your question here...Please read the chapter in question...at least to vs 10
12 I have to boast. There is nothing to be gained by it, but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I know a man in union with the Messiah who fourteen years ago was snatched up to the third heaven; whether he was in the body or outside the body I don’t know, God knows. 3 And I know that such a man — whether in the body or apart from the body I don’t know, God knows — 4 was snatched into Gan-‘Eden and heard things that cannot be put into words, things unlawful for a human being to utter. 5 About such a man I will boast; but about myself I will not boast, except in regard to my weaknesses. 6 If I did want to boast, I would not be foolish; because I would be speaking the truth. But, because of the extraordinary greatness of the revelations, I refrain, so that no one will think more of me than what my words or deeds may warrant. 7 Therefore, to keep me from becoming overly proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from the Adversary to pound away at me, so that I wouldn’t grow conceited. 8 Three times I begged the Lord to take this thing away from me; 9 but he told me, “My grace is enough for you, for my power is brought to perfection in weakness.” Therefore, I am very happy to boast about my weaknesses, in order that the Messiah’s power will rest upon me. 10 Yes, I am well pleased with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions and difficulties endured on behalf of the Messiah; for it is when I am weak that I am strong.
When you surrender your weakness, then the strength of God can work in and for you....Who sends the messengers of Satan?...Who do they work for?......Paul was getting a multitude of revelations, and to kill the enjoyment of that and to pull him down Satan sent the messenger....Read the Book.

Question for you now. If Paul got clobbered there, why would God use that as an example of how we can be victorious?
Hey I don't want to be too strict about this but could you continue this conversation in a new thread? Kinda off topic. ( I am sure I sometimes get off topic too...)

Thanks!

I do appreciate everybody's contribution to this thread, keep it coming!
 
Loyal
Hey I don't want to be too strict about this but could you continue this conversation in a new thread? Kinda off topic. ( I am sure I sometimes get off topic too...)

Thanks!

I do appreciate everybody's contribution to this thread, keep it coming!
Good thinking....Thanks.....and I'm sorry
 
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