Loyal
I know that you want the Lord to come quickly , but the longer He delays , the more will come to thier senses
If the church is “Raptured” in this generation, what are the people left still, in the “Institutionalized church”, called?
Loyal
Active
They're called "the LOST" who will perish at the end of the age. Those who are BORN AGAIN of the Holy Spirit are Christians. Those who are not, are hell bound religious sinners without a Savior.
Active
"As in Adam ALL DIE (SPIRITUALLY), even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE (SPIRITUALLY)." 1 Co 15:22
"This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, WHO IS THE
SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, specially those that believe. These things COMMAND AND TEACH." 1Tim 4:9-11
Doesn't say he wants to be, it says he IS. Those that are true believers should come to this understanding eventually, but self righteousness must first be removed,
as it is an enemy to a clearer understanding of his plan.
Dig deeper as these verses would not stand up to your understanding, or your current understanding will not stand up to these verses. Either Jesus died for the sin
of the entire world or he didn't. Which would require that Adams original sin which brought the condemnation of all men was more powerful than the sacrifice of
Gods only Son. Which do really think carries more weight with God, as he is the one who decreed all to be condemned and all to be justified. Romans 5:18
Not to mention the promise of life eternal was made to us prior to the creation of the world. Titus 1:2
There is of necessity a requirement of all mankind to know good and evil which brings death, physically and spiritually. There is also the sacrifice of the Son which
imputes righteousness and life to all who were required to know good and evil in order to become like God, as he is the creator of everything including evil.
This is Gods plan and he intends to leave not one behind, contrary to popular belief, as they are all his children though for a time they have been given over to be
vessels to dishonor, and disobedience.
"For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL." Romans 11:32
Mercy upon ALL is not eternal torment of a spirit that he put in a human , which said spirit came from him.
Loyal
In a way.. you are right. Even non-believers have an eternal spirit. In fact, even the wicked are resurrected.
1Cor 15:20; But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1Cor 15:21; For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
1Cor 15:22; For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Cor 15:23; But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
If there was ever a physical body, there is a spiritual body to match.
1Cor 15:40; There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
1Cor 15:41; There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1Cor 15:43; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
However the physical body always comes first, we didn't exist before our bodies did. Not even our spirits.
1Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
But you are right, everyone has an after-life, even the wicked.
Acts 24:15; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
However where they go, after they are resurrected is another story.
John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Many will face the "second" death.
Rev 2:11; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
So even though they have an eternal spirit, and even a resurrected body... they aren't going to like where they spend eternity.
1Cor 15:20; But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1Cor 15:21; For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
1Cor 15:22; For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Cor 15:23; But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
If there was ever a physical body, there is a spiritual body to match.
1Cor 15:40; There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
1Cor 15:41; There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1Cor 15:43; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
However the physical body always comes first, we didn't exist before our bodies did. Not even our spirits.
1Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
But you are right, everyone has an after-life, even the wicked.
Acts 24:15; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
However where they go, after they are resurrected is another story.
John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Many will face the "second" death.
Rev 2:11; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
Rev 20:6; Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
So even though they have an eternal spirit, and even a resurrected body... they aren't going to like where they spend eternity.
Loyal
@Samson2020 -- sounds like you believe in universal salvation. Your sentence -- "There is also the sacrifice of the Son which imputes righteousness and life to all who were required to know good and evil in order to become like God."
No one was required to know good and evil -- God told Eve and Adam to NOT eat of that fruit -- because God knew that Then -- If they ate of that fruit that they Would know good and evil -- their state of innocence would be Gone. That was Not God's original plan. We are never meant To be or become like God. That was the mistake that Lucifer made -- he was not content to be God's right-hand angel -- he wanted it All. And we know what happened to him. He was thrown out of heaven and is bound for eternity in lake of fire and brimstone -- Forever.
We are all born physically -- but it's the Spiritual birth that needs to take place. Romans 10:9-10 "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." It's the individual's heart belief and confession that makes the difference.
No one was required to know good and evil -- God told Eve and Adam to NOT eat of that fruit -- because God knew that Then -- If they ate of that fruit that they Would know good and evil -- their state of innocence would be Gone. That was Not God's original plan. We are never meant To be or become like God. That was the mistake that Lucifer made -- he was not content to be God's right-hand angel -- he wanted it All. And we know what happened to him. He was thrown out of heaven and is bound for eternity in lake of fire and brimstone -- Forever.
We are all born physically -- but it's the Spiritual birth that needs to take place. Romans 10:9-10 "For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved." It's the individual's heart belief and confession that makes the difference.
Active
Since I'm not a "Universalist", this discussion is over. I see no room in scripture for more than TWO categories of people. there are the SAVED (Born again), and there are the LOST (Who rejected/neglected salvation).
There's no mid ground, and no "Second chance" after physical death.
Loyal
So far, I haven't seen anything he has said that isn't a Mormon belief. (including Universalism).
Loyal
Greetings @Rockerduck
That is a brilliant way to put it.
I am not doubting your word on the figures quoted, but do wonder if the 25-30% includes some who think they are saved.
Do you know where the information came from.
Bless you
That is a brilliant way to put it.
I am not doubting your word on the figures quoted, but do wonder if the 25-30% includes some who think they are saved.
Do you know where the information came from.
Bless you
Active
So then God is fixing the mistakes he allowed to happen? And was not able to foresee the mistakes coming? Or was this why Jesus was foreordained before the world?
MY Bible says that God works EVERYTHING according to the counsel of HIS OWN WILL. Eph 1:1
So then is it Gods plan or not?
I believe that Jesus told us to forgive so that we may BE MORE LIKE YOUR FATHER in heaven, yes? Be ye holy, for I am holy.???? Jesus became a God according to his
Fathers words, "But unto the Son he saith thy throne O God is for ever and ever....." The Father is the only TRUE GOD as Jesus states in John 17:3, but yet the
Father calls Jesus a God. In the old testament the Father tells us many times that there is no God besides him. Isaiah 45:5, 44:6 44:8, 45:21, Deu 32:39.
So explain to me how Jesus who was not a God, nor the only true God, became a God, as there were no other Gods with the Father during the entire old testament
books.
And we who are of the election according to grace are to be just like Jesus with the putting on of the mind of Christ and to become joint heirs with Jesus and heirs
of God.
IMO a son of God should grow up (mature) into the image of his Father just as Jesus did. And this is what the creation is waiting for is the manifestation of
these sons as it will be set free from the vanity that God had subjected it to in hope.
Active
"God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon ALL."
The spirit that was given to a man returns to the Father who gave it upon death. ECC 12:7
So in your understanding the spirit that returns to the Father that was dead in sin and trespass will be awakened to suffer eternal punishment even though
that spirit was appointed to disobedience, concluded in unbelief, was not of the elect, and will not have mercy shown to it?
Then who did God make the promise of eternal life to in Titus 1:2 before the world was formed?
Consider that your spirit did exist with the Father, but it was not born again of the Holy Spirit thus it was not the new creature that will be the son that obtains
the spiritual body.
Loyal
Greetings @Rockerduck
I have heard people say this in the past, born of water is the breaking of water from the mother's womb. This is false understanding.
John the Baptist was a Jewish prophet he was the forerunner of Jesus.
John preached about God's Final Judgement and he baptised repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
We are to be, born of water and spirit.
Matthew 3:11 (NKJV)
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry.
He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Romans 6:1-10 (NKJV)
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.
7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.
8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him.
10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Colossians 2:11-12 (NKJV)
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Mark 16:16 (NKJV)
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Providing they are born again, born from above; John 3:3, 5, 7
Forgiveness of sins is obtained solely through faith in the Lord Jesus
Acts 10:43 (NKJV)
43 To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."
Baptism is the visible sign of this. Paul puts it beautifully...
1 Corinthians 6:11 (NKJV)
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Acts 22:16 (NKJV)
16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
We are to be, born of water and spirit. This means we have to die first. If we do not take that on board and understand it, it is easy to look for an alternative explanation, this is where water and the womb come in, but it is false teaching. We have to die to sin, crucify the old self, be baptised until death of the olf person and be raised up to new life... Through the water of baptism.
When we are baptised, we are baptised for the forgiveness of sins, Matt 3:11
We are baptised into Christ's death Rom 6:3
We are buried with Him in baptism, so that we can be raised with him from the dead through faith, through baptism of water. Col 2:12
The old sinful self is crucified, it dies, as we are baptised and raised up from the water, we are raised to new life in Him.
Our old sinful self is washed away, we are raised to new life, Baptism is the first part of being made new in Christ Jesus.
We need the Holy Spirit to be completely new, we must be 'born again' of water and of the spirit.
We must be 'born from above' though repentance, through faith, by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Shalom
Active
You are right Brother-Paul. I would say that the baptism of Spirit is the most important and as you said, for us to be completely new, we need the Spirit of God.
I think that the most essential part is the Spirit, because there are also many persons performing the water baptism just as a ritual and believing that's all. It happens, because this is something we can do at any time, while for the baptism of the Spirit, we need to have faith and be submitted to Jesus.
And as the Bible states, we are saved by faith.
Loyal
How about maybe about 10 %, and that is frightening, and how bless are you, concerning statistics, those that falls into that 10%. The 25-30% falls in the category relating to "nominal christians". No matter what all may think, the numbers are fewer that what many may think. By the standards of, "Biblical motifs".
"You where few among all people", "a Remnant", "a Remnant according to grace", "many are called but only a few are chosen", "only Lot and His 2 girls, who was "Jesus's" ancestral grandmother" was saved out of "Sodom & Gomorrah", "many will try to make it in and will not be able", I know a lot of "Christians" do not want to accept this, and have created in their minds, the Kind of GOD they want and want to believe in, instead of the God the scriptures have describe.
The Narrow Door
22Then Jesus traveled throughout the towns and villages, teaching as He made His way toward Jerusalem. 23“Lord,” someone asked Him, “will only a few people be saved?” Jesus answered, 24“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able.…
When the "Bible" say few, many of Christians will say: "many". why, because we are still "sinners" and many do not like "The GOD" that is describe in "The Holy Scriptures", the one who Jesus has proclaimed.
Active
ye
yes i read kjv also
Loyal
I see why the world look at a type of people who say they believe in Christ, and for over 2,000 years, and still auguring among themselves, about who is Jesus. what does Baptism means, One christian says; it means this, another one says it means this. For over 2 thousands years, the same argument! The very same words, they argue about the "Trinty' meaning and have never read the original "doctrine". Since "Tertulian" reinforce the term with explanation of the "coined" word. A lot of "christians' travels around in "OLD circles" never growing, and they always grab the back coat tails, of others to hold them in place that others cannot grow and move on to greater heights in Christ. The stuff most christians are debating about have been settle centuries ago. The same arguments are taking place, like a broken old recording audio album playing on a old "phonographic player"! "blip, blip blip, blip blip, blip,blip,blip"!
Just keep going around in a circle, playing the same tune of "blips". Christians! who still do not know the Difference between "GOD the Father and God the Son , and God The Holy Spririt and "The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY"! and they are stumbling on "baptisms" terms. I tell you now, do not let these stumbling christians hold you back from the "Manifestation and The Revelation of Jesus Christ" in this day and age.
Jesus did not come down here, to make this world better or your world better, He came down here to turn your world "Upside down"!
(hebrews 6:10.)
1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works,a and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms,b the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do, if God permits.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
With this in mind, we should stop going over the elementary truths about Christ and move on to topics for more mature people. We shouldn't repeat the basics about turning away from the useless things we did and the basics about faith in God.
Just keep going around in a circle, playing the same tune of "blips". Christians! who still do not know the Difference between "GOD the Father and God the Son , and God The Holy Spririt and "The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY"! and they are stumbling on "baptisms" terms. I tell you now, do not let these stumbling christians hold you back from the "Manifestation and The Revelation of Jesus Christ" in this day and age.
Jesus did not come down here, to make this world better or your world better, He came down here to turn your world "Upside down"!
(hebrews 6:10.)
1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works,a and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms,b the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And this we will do, if God permits.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
With this in mind, we should stop going over the elementary truths about Christ and move on to topics for more mature people. We shouldn't repeat the basics about turning away from the useless things we did and the basics about faith in God.
Loyal
Stats like this don't matter PB, except to say I had to question the source of 25-30%
Our name in the Book of Life and the Lamb is what counts. Though we cannot see the book, if we are truly born again, born from above, we know brother.
Bless you
Active
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Loyal
Greetings brother,
Just stepping back to the title of this thread if I may.
If the church is “Raptured” in this generation, what are the people left still, in the “Institutionalized church”, called?
If the church is raptured, in this generation, this year, this week, this day, those who are left behind will not just include the 'institutionalised church' as we know it.
The church, the ekklesia, is the born again, born from above souls, no matter what colour, what country, what tongue, whether male or female, young or old, disabled or able bodied. These souls, from any denomination are saved, those who are lost, from what ever denomination are lost, left behind, they will come before the Great White Throne Judgement at the appropriate time and receive their due sentence, eternal damnation.
Now the church, it is not the building down the road, in the village, in the city, that is the lace of worship, called church by the RCC, they used the word kuriakon which is not in the Bible anywhere.
The only church, true church, is the ekklesia, the born again believers. If there are souls going to a place of worship, who are not born from above, they are lost souls, the devil is their father. So when we talk about the church in which Jesus is head, we are talking of the ekklesia, not a building, not a denomination. The Church, the ekklesia, is the body of Christ, the spiritual stones, together we are built up with brothers and sisters worldwide who have accepted Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, repented of their sin and have been baptised in water and spirit.
Shalom