Active
It's interesting to note that his "proof text" scripture verse actually has the word OBEY in it.
And that he denies the workings of miracles... when...
Rather amazing.
Rhema
How Was Paul As Saul Called to be Saved?
And that he denies the workings of miracles... when...
Rather amazing.
Rhema
Active
Ahh... Faith... the trigger to the gun of miracles.
There was a time when Jesus, Son of God, GOD himself to many, could do no mighty work, except heal a few people. So he taught. Why? To build their faith.
Lord increase our Faith. They asked. You want your faith increased? Then DO.
(Luke 17:5-10 KJV) And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you. But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
Rhema
Active
Once again, deniers insists that to obey is the will of man to do while ignoring that to obey the Truth ( Jesus ) is by believing Jesus Christ is the will of God for us to do; not just for salvation, but afterwards for following Him by faith.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Loyal
But even Abraham's obedience was tested to count as faith.
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?
Jas 2:21; Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
Jas 2:22; You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
Heb 11:17; By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son;
Active
That reference by James & Paul was about Abraham's faith in God to provide which requires to lead by example in the eyes of others that you share that faith in God to do, and not about faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works.
You have to pay heed to Paul's words here since he is not referring to Abraham's faith in God to provide but how he was accounted as righteous by believing God period.
Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
See how Abraham's justified without works by believing God? Note verse 4 above and the next reference below how salvation by the grace of God cannot be with works.
Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Below are 2 more references where Paul signified how we are saved without works and yet emphasized that it is important to maintain works as it is profitable unto men.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Which is why those who seek to obtain salvation by works are denying Him as able to save us without works. We should not run that race to obtain salvation, but to run as saved for the high prize which comes with our salvation which is to be received by Him as that vessel unto honor in his House to attend the marriage Supper in his honor & to His glory or else be disqualified and left behind when the Bridegroom comes in being damned as vessels unto dishonor but still saved as they shall be of the least of the kingdom of heaven Matthew 5:19 as vessels of wood & earth 2 Timothy 2:20 testifying to the power of God in salvation for all those who believe in Jesus Christ, even in His name..
Loyal
There is a "before" and "after". We don't do anything but have faith to get saved.
However once we are saved, there are rules you have to follow... "or else".
I don't see hat here, I think we need to take these verses at face value as they are written.
If we have to add "parts" of other "multiple" verse that don't have anything to do with the subject at hand, then they are being twisted.
If there is more commentary explaining what the verses means, than there is scripture, there's a real possibility it's just someone's spin on it.
Active
I agree.
But in spite of the first comment above, "We don't do anything but have faith to get saved." you said this below which seems to be inconsistent.
Thing is, many believers take James words out of context for why he was saying faith without works was dead when James was rebuking the church for sharing their faith in God to provide to the poor just to get out of helping the poor.. That is why in the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in God to provide was dead, and will not "profit" the poor nor "save" the poor from the element nor starvation.
It is not the church's faith that will not profit nor save the church, but how the church failed to lead by examples in the eyes of the poor is why the church's faith in God to provide is dead in the eyes of the poor.
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James referred to that faith in Abraham in God to provide which is what that moment in scripture was all about when he offered up Isaac on the altar.
James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.
The name of that place is the faith James is referring to in regards to Abraham's faith in God to provide for that day. It is not to be applied towards the faith in Jesus Christ for salvation which is without works for God pleased and is able to save those who believe.
1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God..... 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
Active
Just about every denomination out there teaches faith alone, and they don't understanding when Paul says faith alone means we are purified by faith alone and we don't have to do the purification works.
The Galatians were purified by faith that Jesus' blood purifies them, but they were talked into doing the old law's works of purifying oneself.
Active
It wasn't Martin Luther's only mistake.
Active
Getting saved isn't some kind of magic potion where we have to believe, but be careful not to add anything else or it will ruin the magic! Who has bewitched you?
We have to obey, we just don't have to get circumcised like before.
Old Law to be purified, sanctified, justified, clean = Do these works yourself:
The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.
New law to be purified, sanctified, justified, clean = Have faith that Jesus does those works for you.
Active
Exactly! Love it, you got that right, good to hear the truth spoken.
That faith alone teaching and some weird enabling thing came from Luther.
Active
If it was based on faith of dying mankind than nothing could happen . Its Christ work of faith or labor of love that he works in in us to both reveal the truth and then empower of to do it all to his good pleasure.
"O woman, your new born again faith that comkes from hearing God is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.by the faith of
Christ that mutually worked in both . Not the faith generated by dying humans (its dead as in no faith )
Loyal
Just curious what verse/translation is this?
Active
Sorry I added that ( your new born again) to help recognize the source of power (faith) not of us
Active
This from the guy who often quotes:
(Revelation 22:18 KJV) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
... to mean the entire Bible ??
(John 11:35 KJV) Jesus wept.
Rhema
Loyal
LOL
Loyal
LOL, and you thought I was bad!
This from the guy who often quotes:
(Revelation 22:18 KJV) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
... to mean the entire Bible ??
(John 11:35 KJV) Jesus wept.
Rhema
Active
Just pointing out the obvious on this one. No attack or insult on the member, just expressing my disappointment in the contradiction.
Kindly,
Captain Obvious
Loyal
Like warm as usual if it is not referring to me! Anyway I do like it kinda of Hot anyhow.
Active
Adding to the word to mean the entire Bible is another subject .
This from the guy who often quotes:
(Revelation 22:18 KJV) For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
... to mean the entire Bible ??
(John 11:35 KJV) Jesus wept.
Rhema
I should of put my comment in (parenthesis) but that does not mean by comment was a addition . It is still true