Grace vs the Law, debate #23,578

[Theo102]

How about what Romans is telling us. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
And that the waves of sin is Death.

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Deuteronomy 24:16

Paul's doctrine of original sin doesn't take influence of the devil into account.

 

[Sue D.]

Why would you be sorry?


What do you think the agenda is?

Satans' agenda is to take as many people to the lake of fire and brimstone as he possibly can. That's his eternal agenda. Satan is the biggest liar there is. And his lie is that hell doesn't Really exist and that no one will suffer very long -- that it will be a big party with no one to keep them from having Fun. And by the time a person Gets the reality of Being there. It will be eternally too late to change their mind.

 

[Sue D.]

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Deuteronomy 24:16

Paul's doctrine of original sin doesn't take influence of the devil into account.

No one is talking about the Deuteronomy passage.

Scripture says that we are all personally responsible for our own decisions and the Biggest, most Important decision that a person will Ever make -- here on earth-- is to accept or reject God's salvation made possible through the death, burial and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ on the cross.

It's not Paul's doctrine -- it's God's doctrine. And everything that's in Scripture has been inspired by God To the various writers Of Scripture.

And the influence of satan has Always been taken into account.

Trying to work 'your' way to salvation through obedience to the law is Also influenced by satan.

 

[Theo102]

No one is talking about the Deuteronomy passage.

It's relevant to the issue of Paul's honesty re original sin and the role of the serpent as the deceiver.

 

[Bendito]

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Deuteronomy 24:16

Paul's doctrine of original sin doesn't take influence of the devil into account.

What original sin are you talking about?

It's relevant to the issue of Paul's honesty re original sin and the role of the serpent as the deceiver.

I asked what original sin you are talking about Theo because there is NO mention of any Original sin in the entire Book. Are you a Romanist perchance? a Roman Catholic?

 

[Theo102]

What original sin are you talking about?

Paul's doctrine.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:12

 

[Sue D.]

Paul's doctrine.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Romans 5:12

What bothers Me is your referring to Paul's doctrine. It's Bible doctrine. Lots of people were inspired to write Scripture. Paul was one of them. He Did author a lot of books, but it's Still God's Word.

 

[Sue D.]

God warned ahead of time of the consequences of sin. Death. Otherwise they could have lived in the Garden Forever in innocence.

 

[Theo102]

What bothers Me is your referring to Paul's doctrine. It's Bible doctrine. Lots of people were inspired to write Scripture. Paul was one of them. He Did author a lot of books, but it's Still God's Word. :smile:

"God" is ambiguous, and could refer to a lying spirit.

For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Romans 3:7

 

[Sue D.]

"God" is ambiguous, and could refer to a lying spirit.

For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Romans 3:7

I don't know Where you get your theology from, but God is Almighty God.

You're referring to the concept of lying spirits or false prophets.

The God head consists of God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.

The verse you quoted Is in the Bible -- but misapplied -- lifting a verse from it's context can be dangerous. A person can get Scripture to say most Anything going That route.
Context is the entire passage the verse is in. That can extend to the entire chapter / book it's in.

 

[Theo102]

I don't know Where you get your theology from, but God is Almighty God.

No, that not's correct. There is only one pre-eminent deity.

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:26, KJV

The God head consists of God the Father, Jesus Christ His Son and the Holy Spirit.

That's a fallacy based on the equivocation of "God". Also that doctrine implies that it means nothing to be holy, since there's no distinction between Ruach Elohim (Genesis 1:2) and Ruach haQodesh (Psalms 51:11).

The verse you quoted Is in the Bible -- but misapplied

How do you think that I've misapplied it or taken it out of context?

 

[Sue D.]

Re-read your comments to #151. Those responses make me think that you have some Big problems with doctrine.

You choose to use -- either Greek or Hebrew -- in your names and seem to think that it's okay to apply Scripture any way you want to.

I won't be discussing any more -- thanks.

 

[Theo102]

Re-read your comments to #151

Why would I want to do that? The point remains that the doctrine of the Trinity is based on the fallacy of equivocation.

Also, for something to be holy, there must be something of the same type which is not holy. This means that the nature of spirit is not understood by Trinitarian doctrine, since there's no concept of Ruach Elohim from Genesis 1:2.

 

[B-A-C]

There is only one true God.

1 Sam 2:2; "There is no one holy like the LORD, Indeed, there is no one besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God.
Isa 46:9; "Remember the former things long past, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me,
Mark 12:29; Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;
John 5:44; "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God?

However that God is made up of multiple persons.

John 10:30; "I and the Father are one."

The Father is God, so is Jesus, and the Holy Spirit

Tit 2:13; looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
2 Pet 1:1; Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:

Any other Gods are false Gods.

Exod 20:3; "You shall have no other gods before Me.
Exod 20:4; "You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth.
Exod 20:5; "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

 

[Chad]

Why would I want to do that? The point remains that the doctrine of the Trinity is based on the fallacy of equivocation.

Also, for something to be holy, there must be something of the same type which is not holy. This means that the nature of spirit is not understood by Trinitarian doctrine, since there's no concept of Ruach Elohim from Genesis 1:2.

What is this nonsense? Trinity is not fallacy. Don't preach that nonsense on my forums.

 

[Theo102]

What is this nonsense? Trinity is not fallacy.

Preaching relates to religion (opinion and belief), but I'm talking about facts and logic. The new covenant is about knowledge, not faith or belief. Jeremiah. 31:34, Isaiah 53:11.

Equivocation is when one word is used with two different meanings within the same context. For example: "I'm dehyrated, give me a drink" - "No, you're a minor".

Here's the Anglican statement of religion relating to the Trinity:

I. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity.
There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons, of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

The equivocation results from the conflation of YHWH (singular) and Elohim (plural) as "God". In the following two verses "God" is a translation of Elohim (plural).

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:1, KJV
בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Genesis 1:16, KJV
ויאמר אלהים נעשה אדם בצלמנו כדמותנו וירדו בדגת הים ובעוף השמים ובבהמה ובכל־הארץ ובכל־הרמש הרמש על־הארץ

In the following verse "God" is translated from the singular Elah, and is equated with YHWH.

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Deuteronomy 6:4, KJV
שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד

In the following verse "God" is first translated once from the plural Elohim, and then from singular Elah.

And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.
Exodus 3:15, KJV

ויאמר עוד אלהים אל־משה כה־תאמר אל־בני ישראל יהוה אלהי אבתיכם אלהי אברהם אלהי יצחק ואלהי יעקב שלחני אליכם זה־שמי לעלם וזה זכרי לדר דר

The term "Godhead" is a translation of three different alternate spellings of θεός (theos): (θεῖος Acts 17:29, θειότης Romans 1:20, θεότης Colossians 2:9)
The Greek word theos is used to refer both to Elohim and to YHWH.

But from the beginning of the creation God(θεός) made them male and female.
Mark 10:6, KJV

So God(אלהים) created man in his own image, in the image of God(אלהים) created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 1:27, KJV

Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God(θεός) made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
Acts 3:25, KJV

And said, By myself have I sworn, saith YHWH, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Genesis 22:16-18

 

[Sue D.]

Theo 101 -- I don't know What kind of preaching you're used to hearing. But the pastors I listen to are very intelligent men and present Scripture as God's Word and teach it as such. God's Word is made up of both facts and logic. And should be presented that way.

 

[Laeomis]

I think Jesus and Paul (Saul) is like King David and King Saul. A division in the church. Saul preaches not to follow the law, but Jesus says to keep it. I think most people might polarize to one or the other. Follow Saul or follow Jesus because often they don't agree.

 

[Sue D.]

@Laeomis -- Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Jesus Christ teaches that keeping the law will Not save a person.

Maybe you're confusing Paul of the New Testament with Saul of the Old Testament.

There was confusion in the early days -- There were those who tried to teach a combination of keeping the law And accepting the cross. The Jews had their laws that they'd been keeping. They needed to accept Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah. The Law was given to show the Need FOR the cross. It's impossible to keep every single law 100% of the time. That's why we have the verse saying "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that, not of ourselves - it is a gift of God -- Not of works - lest anyone should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9.

Circumcision was a Big deal back then. Was That necessary for salvation. The early converts were Jews -- circumcision was a necessity for them. It IS good for physical hygiene for boys / men. But is it necessary for Salvation? No.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I think Jesus and Paul (Saul) is like King David and King Saul. A division in the church. Saul preaches not to follow the law, but Jesus says to keep it. I think most people might polarize to one or the other. Follow Saul or follow Jesus because often they don't agree.

Hello Laeomis,
The problem many people have in discussing and viewing the Gospels and Epistles is that they separate them as being either the Words of Jesus or the Words of Paul, Peter, James, John. They are all revealed Words of Jesus. For all the Apostles were taught by Him. Yes even Paul. As he readily makes note to, more then once in his writings. Another problem is, that we have a tendency to forget about context of what we are reading. This is very important to make note of when we read any Scripture if we are not to be deceived into debating a made up contradiction where there is none.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
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