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Grace vs the Law, debate #23,578

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Loyal
It seems it is time for our monthly debate about this again. I really don't know how people can be so confused about this.

On one hand we have a few scriptures that mention grace and "the law".
John 1:17; For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
Rom 4:16; For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Rom 5:20; The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 6:14; For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15; What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Gal 2:21; "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
Gal 5:4; You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Paul mentions NOT being under the law several times.

Rom 3:28; For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
Gal 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

I believe the confusion stems from the fact people don't really know what "the law" is.

On the other hand (is it really the other hand?) We are told to keep the commandments over a dozen times.
[COLOR=rgb(209, 72, 65)]
Matt 5:19; "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
Matt 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
Mark 10:19; "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, Do not defraud, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'"[/COLOR]
Luke 1:6; They were both righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and requirements of the Lord.
[COLOR=rgb(209, 72, 65)]Luke 18:20; "You know the commandments, 'DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, DO NOT MURDER, DO NOT STEAL, DO NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS, HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER.'"
John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 14:21; "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.[/COLOR]
1 Cor 7:19 ; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.
1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 3:22; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
1 Jn 3:24; The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 Jn 5:2; By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
1 Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
2 Jn 1:6; And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it.
Rev 12:17; So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Rev 14:12; Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

We even have over a dozen verses that say fruit and works are required. So does the Bible conflict itself? Not at all.
Even is trying to redefine all of this. Why?
 
Active
@B-AC,
The clarity comes when a person understands the difference between "justification" by the law; and "justification" by Jesus Christ. Believers do not throw the law out, because the law is good if a man use it lawfully. But it must be understood a man is not "justified" by the law. Justified is saying the same thing as the term "UNDER" in particular context of scripture. The law (under the Covenant of Grace) cannot tell a believer what to do and then impose a penalty upon them if they choose not to obey. Jesus is commanding believers of what they should do; not the law.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profits nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

After Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law, all power was given unto Him in Heaven and Earth. Jesus established a new covenant and the Mosaic Law was removed and taken away. Laws in Covenants are transferable. It happened with the Abrahamic Covenant, the Mosaic Covenant and the Covenant of Grace.
 
Loyal
As I said, many are confused.

The commandments are NOT the law. Can I get saved by simply never killing anyone, never having an affair and never stealing anything? No.
(First of all, because ALL of us have sinned)
Even if I only break 1 commandment 1 time, I'm just as guilty as if I broke all of them. ( Rom 3:23; Rom 6:23; Jas 2:10; )

On the other hand, it isn't grace alone either, as many post here almost everyday. Obedience IS required.
We have many on here who say we are saved by grace alone, and faith in Jesus alone. That is fine for how you initially get saved.
But it isn't enough after you are saved.

Otherwise once, I am saved... I am free to murder, steal. commit adultery, molest children, a live a homosexual lifestyle.
The argument from Calvinists is... well, if you were REALLY saved, you wouldn't do those things.
So they immediate contradict the statement that they are saved by grace alone, and go back to basing someone's salvation on obedience.

The other problem with that statement, is that it disagrees with Jas 2:10; The point being, there are no small grey sins, and big black sins. All sin is "sin".
So if I'm really saved... I won't kill, steal or molest, but I will still lie, lust, argue, covet, and commit adultery in my mind.
Where do you draw the line, on how much sin is too much? All sin is the same. They are deceiving themselves.

The law had the 10 commandments contained in it yes. But the commandments alone were never "the law".
When the new testament speaks of not being saved or justified by the law, it mean things like animal sacrifices, the blood of goats and bulls.
It means confession to an earthly priest, it means circumcision. The Bible is right.. none of those things will justify you or save you.

But not obeying the commandments will keep you out of heaven. Not bearing fruit will keep you out of heaven.
We don't have to be perfect, but we can't take grace for granted and say it covers everything no matter what I do or how I live.
 
Active
@B-A-C,
As I said, many are confused.
The commandments are NOT the law.
Matthew 22:40
On these two "commandments" hang all the "law" and the prophets.

Romans 13:8
Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:9
For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The law had the 10 commandments contained in it yes. But the commandments alone were never "the law".
Exodus 24:12
And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

Romans 7:7
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known "lust," except the "law" had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The law and commandments are used interchangeably in scripture. The Commandments are the Testimonies and Law that Moses received from God on Mount Sinai.

When the new testament speaks of not being saved or justified by the law, it mean things like animal sacrifices, the blood of goats and bulls.
It means confession to an earthly priest, it means circumcision. The Bible is right.. none of those things will justify you or save you.
That is true... Those sacrifices made Israel Righteous in the flesh, but it could not make them Righteous in spirit. Only Jesus make a man righteous in Spirit, because the law could not take away sin. However, the believer is responsible to walk in righteousness for the purpose of sanctification of mind, by bringing their body into subjection through obedience to the law.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

I definitely agree with you on the other info.
 
Loyal
The law and commandments are used interchangeably in scripture. The Commandments are the Testimonies and Law that Moses received from God on Mount Sinai.
Rarely. As I said... The law contains the commandments, but usually when Paul is talking about the law, he isn't talking about the commandments. He is talking about ceremonial law.

1 Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Those sacrifices made Israel Righteous in the flesh,
They didn't even make them righteous in the flesh. It was simply a place holder until Jesus came along.

Heb 9:12; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 10:4; For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

John 1:29; The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
 
Active
@B-A-C,
Rarely. As I said... The law contains the commandments, but usually when Paul is talking about the law, he isn't talking about the commandments. He is talking about ceremonial law.

1 Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

They didn't even make them righteous in the flesh. It was simply a place holder until Jesus came along.
I never said the law of circumcision made a person righteous in the flesh. The animal sacrifices did make Israel righteous in the flesh before God because the sacrifices for their sins covered their unrighteousness from God and He saw Israel as Righteous. That was the purpose of the yearly Atonement.


Heb 9:12; and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Heb 10:4; For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

John 1:29; The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
You post these scriptures but you still say that you sin? Yet, you talk to me like I don't know what I'm talking about? How do you explain your inconsistency? It would help me understand your complete stance so we can have better conversation and possibly be on the same page. Do you sin or not?

Psalms 103:12
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath God removed our transgressions from us.

Sacrifices of bulls and goats were only sacrifices for the sins of flesh. God instituted sacrifices of sins for purification of the flesh, not the spirit. When Israel offered their sacrifices, God received their sacrifices and did not see their sins because they were cleansed temporary from their sins in God's mind; but the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin. God saw them as righteous because of their acts of obedience not because of their righteousness in spirit.
 
Member
All praises to FATHER AHAYAH YASHAYAH WA RAACH!

I always learn but I wanted to add:

YASHAYAH showed Grace over the law for the woman who was a jew caught in adultery! The Pharisees came with the law but CHRIST is grace and gave grace to the woman.
What many people don't understand is that YASHAYAH was also speaking of himself when he made that statement to them!

John 8:3-11 [3]And the Scribes and Pharisees brought vnto him a woman taken in adultery, and when they had set her in the mids, [4]They say vnto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. [5]Now Moses in the Law commanded vs, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? [6]This they said, tempting him, that they might haue to accuse him. But Iesus stouped downe, and with his finger wrote on the ground as though he heard them not. [7]So when they continued asking him, hee lift vp himselfe, and saide vnto them, Hee that is without sinne among you, let him first cast a stone at her. [8]And againe, hee stouped downe, and wrote on the ground. [9]And they which heard it, being conuicted by their owne conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, euen vnto the last: and Iesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. [10]When Iesus had lift vp himselfe, and saw none but the woman, hee said vnto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee? [11]She saide, No man, Lord. And Iesus saide vnto her, Neither doe I condemne thee: Goe, and sinne no more.
Blessings!
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
Its kind of interesting too when you look at the meaning of Grace. Under the law, that is in the Old Covenant the people did not have the Holy Spirit...By that I mean the Holy Spirit would come upon someone at times and speak to them. They needed the law to show them the way they needed to live. But we, living in the New Covenant live by GRACE....We have the empowering PRESENCE of God IN us. By Gods empowering PRESENCE in use we are saved! He is talking to us all the time. Are we listening? He is teaching us, correcting us, coaching us, encouraging us....From inside us and He will never leave us or forsake us....That's Grace...
 
Active
@Dave,
the law is outward, Grace in inward.
One aspect of the law is carnal, dealing only with the outward man. But there is also the spiritual aspect of the law that deals with the heart and condition of a man's character.

Psalms 119:9
Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word (law).

Scripture teaches the law is spiritual, so it can also change the heart of a man which is spiritual (Rom. 7:14). The heart of man serve a spirit - whether Jehovah God or Satan.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
@Dave,


One aspect of the law is carnal, dealing only with the outward man. But there is also the spiritual aspect of the law that deals with the heart and condition of a man's character.

Psalms 119:9
Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word (law).

Scripture teaches the law is spiritual, so it can also change the heart of a man which is spiritual (Rom. 7:14). The heart of man serve a spirit - whether Jehovah God or Satan.
The law cannot change a mans heart...That's why it was only good to show us our sin and our need for a savior.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
We would all be wise to remember that law and grace are NOT mutually exclusive. We must remember that the law and grace actually work together....We fulfill the law by following those two 'new' laws that Jesus Gave us.. Matt 22:37-40...The law is only followed by having Grace encouraging us. Again...Grace is not a thing, but a person.
 
Active
We would all be wise to remember that law and grace are NOT mutually exclusive. We must remember that the law and grace actually work together....We fulfill the law by following those two 'new' laws that Jesus Gave us.. Matt 22:37-40...The law is only followed by having Grace encouraging us. Again...Grace is not a thing, but a person.
Believers can't follow the laws in (Matt. 22:37-40). That is nothing but 'law'. That they are true, yes. That they are the greatest in the Law, yes. (Matt. 22:36) That we should obey them, yes. That we can, no, as far as attempting to obey them as law. As soon as you make something law, the believer will fail. The Law feeds sin. (Rom. 7:9)

When you walk into that country store and see the sign that reads, 'no spittin on the floor', your mouth just starts watering.

Quantrill
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
Believers can't follow the laws in (Matt. 22:37-40). That is nothing but 'law'. That they are true, yes. That they are the greatest in the Law, yes. (Matt. 22:36) That we should obey them, yes. That we can, no, as far as attempting to obey them as law. As soon as you make something law, the believer will fail. The Law feeds sin. (Rom. 7:9)

When you walk into that country store and see the sign that reads, 'no spittin on the floor', your mouth just starts watering.

Quantrill
You need to back that up with scripture....
 
Active
@Bendito,
The law cannot change a mans heart...That's why it was only good to show us our sin and our need for a savior.
Through the law a man's heart is changed by the wisdom of God's word if a man willingly applies that word in obedience to change his conduct. The scripture I presented shows the law gives direction for a man to walk in the righteousness of it. How can a young man change his ways? By taking heed and following God's word. A man's ways are clean if they are walking in the righteousness of God's word (the law). If a man is willing to obey God's word, he can walk in the righteousness and obedience of the law and his ways will reflect the word that was put in his heart.

Psalms 19:7
The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

A man that does not know God's ways, does not know righteousness. Israel would not walk in God's ways.

Hebrews 3:10
Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
 
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