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Grace vs the Law, debate #23,578

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Active
Preaching relates to religion (opinion and belief), but I'm talking about facts and logic.
Logic, I like that.

I find it logical that God who created us and says He loves us, also lay His life down and try reach out to us. God the Son died for us. God the Holy Spirit reaches out, teaches and guides us.

If the trinity was not true, then Jesus would be the one who drew the short straw. When God says He loves us, we would doubt it.

Any non - trinity teaching will inevitably lead one away from the love of God. Exactly what the devil would want.

Jesus was crucified for saying He is equal to God John 5:18. Why would Jesus lie?
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
Deuteronomy 24:16

Paul's doctrine of original sin doesn't take influence of the devil into account.
What is Pauls doctrine of original sin?
 
Loyal
Some churches teach this as "the original sin"

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Now I suppose it could be the original sin of man. But the original sin was Satan rebelling against God.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
Some churches teach this as "the original sin"

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
Rom 5:16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
Rom 5:19 For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Now I suppose it could be the original sin of man. But the original sin was Satan rebelling against God.
Good point....The only "original sin" teaching I ever heard was as a Romanist....I was born guilty of sin! Yaargh! I dint do nuthin! That's a horrible thing, that doctrine. And totally false.
I looked up the doctrine of original sin on YouTuve, why? Because I can....I found this little clip....Its actually quite good.
 
Active
I just watched the clip -- it Was good -- but missed one important point. salvation Has been made Possible -- but Does have to be accepted by the individual person. It was suggesting that the cross of Christ automatically took care of everyone's sins. Universal salvation. But not the case.

And --yes -- the very first sin Was committed by Lucifer in heaven -- pride -- and he was kicked out of heaven with a number of other angels as a result.

And since Lucifer / satan / wanted to thwart All of God's Plans -- he went after Adam and Eve and tempted Them with the fruit of the tree that had been forbidden them by God. Having all that knowledge like God did was very tempting. And they yielded to it.

so -- as a result -- Every person is born with the Propensity For Sin. Which means that we'll All sin to Some degree during this life on earth.

A baby isn't born sinful -- but they Are born with the tendency To sin. Older babies have to be taught to share -- they are Not 'nice' by nature. And some babies Do have a temper. But they should not get punished for that. It's the parent / care giver who needs to be aware of that baby's toddlers needs and take care in a loving way. They get tired and frustrated and need lots of TLC. That's what parenting is all about. Some baby's Are good natured and easy to care for == others are fretty and fussy and That can be challenging for parents.

You're actually saying that the doctrine of original sin is False?!

Part of the 'thing' with eating that fruit in the garden -- it was from the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil. That is why they were Not to even touch it, much less Eat it. THAT is what brought evil into our natures in the first place. The knowledge of Evil. It was passed from them to their future generations.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
I just watched the clip -- it Was good -- but missed one important point. salvation Has been made Possible -- but Does have to be accepted by the individual person. It was suggesting that the cross of Christ automatically took care of everyone's sins. Universal salvation. But not the case.

And --yes -- the very first sin Was committed by Lucifer in heaven -- pride -- and he was kicked out of heaven with a number of other angels as a result.

And since Lucifer / satan / wanted to thwart All of God's Plans -- he went after Adam and Eve and tempted Them with the fruit of the tree that had been forbidden them by God. Having all that knowledge like God did was very tempting. And they yielded to it.

so -- as a result -- Every person is born with the Propensity For Sin. Which means that we'll All sin to Some degree during this life on earth.

A baby isn't born sinful -- but they Are born with the tendency To sin. Older babies have to be taught to share -- they are Not 'nice' by nature. And some babies Do have a temper. But they should not get punished for that. It's the parent / care giver who needs to be aware of that baby's toddlers needs and take care in a loving way. They get tired and frustrated and need lots of TLC. That's what parenting is all about. Some baby's Are good natured and easy to care for == others are fretty and fussy and That can be challenging for parents.

You're actually saying that the doctrine of original sin is False?!

Part of the 'thing' with eating that fruit in the garden -- it was from the tree of the knowledge of both good and evil. That is why they were Not to even touch it, much less Eat it. THAT is what brought evil into our natures in the first place. The knowledge of Evil. It was passed from them to their future generations.
There is a difference between having a tendency to sin, and actually being guilty of sin.
 
Active
How about "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." That's in Romans 3:23 and the wages of sin is death 6:23.
 
Loyal
There is a difference between having a tendency to sin, and actually being guilty of sin.
Perhaps... but eventually we have to overcome that tendency. You can't just keep living a sinful lifestyle and claim to be a Christian.

1 Jn 5:4; For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
Rev 2:11; 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.'
Rev 21:7; "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

Rom 6:16; Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

repentance IS required.

Luke 13:3; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
 
Active
As long as people are on this earth -- there will Always be the tendency towards sinfulness.

No one will ever attain sinless perfection. Until we get to heaven.

Even for born-again believers -- maybe Especially for them because the devil will be trying his best to make them as non-productive as possible. Not really the word I was looking for but it's close enough.

And, yes, repentense Is necessary for our salvation. And without salvation we will spend eternity in hell.
 
Loyal
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

seems we should be able to stop doing these type of things at some point and time in our walk, maybe not right away but after 20 years if you are still having sex outside of marriage can you say your going to heaven? when it seems the above scripture says you are not

even Jesus tells us to
John 5:14
Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.”
 
Active
Just this evening in Bible study -- we're going through Galatians 5 right now.
It was being pointed out that because of the cross we Don't HAVE to sin anymore. And it was Also commented on that satan knows every weakness we have. And we Do have ability to say No. But lots of times we simply don't -- we're sort of 'busy' being human beings doing our daily things like work , etc. We get into our routines of daily living. And we're not doing anything Bad but we Could be doing Better things with our time?!

Before the cross -we were Bound by sin. No escaping it. But now - Since the cross -- --- the list of actions in Dave M's post -- those things being made a life-style Of Would indicate a Problem in a person's life.

And Maybe, in this day and age -- we're becoming more lax in our behavior.
And some believers Are better at 'behaving ourselves' than others are.

hmmmm
 
Loyal
I'm not sure it's about being absolutely perfect all the time. This has come up before several times. It seems some people are extremists about morality.
Some people believe we have to 100% perfect (no room for grace) or some people believe we can do whatever we want and live however we want (no room for repentance and sanctification).

We did a study a while back on the word "practice"

Have you ever "practiced" something? Practicing is something you do over and over again with the intent of getting better at it. It seems there are verses that talk about practicing.

Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

I wonder if "practicing lawlessness" (practicing sin) if different from unintentionally committing a sin every now and then? I'm not saying it isn't sin at all. But it seems to be different from "living" in a sinful lifestyle.

Rom 1:32; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Rom 2:2; And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things.

Most of these verses don't say "if you've ever dome these things even once", but rather those who "practice" these things. Still continuing on in "practicing" these things has consequences.

Rom 2:3; But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God?

Galatians 5 was mentioned above, it uses similar language.

Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 4:19; and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.

In fact, we should be practicing righteousness. Again, this doesn't mean we have to be perfect necessarily, but we should be striving towards it.

Php 4:9; The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

There are some churches that do preach perfection is possible ... with "practice".

2 Pet 1:10; Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

John says if we aren't "practicing" righteousness, we don't even belong to God.

1 Jn 3:10; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

I play the guitar a little. I'm not great at it, I make mistakes sometimes. But I'm practicing.... to get better at it.

God knows our hearts. Even most of the disciples weren't perfect. But I believe they were "practicing" righteousness. We might not be "perfect" Christians 100% of the time, but are we trying to be?

Col 3:9; Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices,
1 Jn 2:29; If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1 Jn 3:4; Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
1 Jn 3:7; Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

John doesn't go along with the righteousness of Jesus covers our righteousness. He says if we "practice" righteousness, then we are righteous. (That's definitely not to say we can be righteous without Jesus).

These verses are concerning the new Jerusalem....

Rev 21:27; and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:15; Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

We really need to pay attention to the kind of walk (lifestyle) we are... practicing.
 
Loyal
Two hypothetical situations. Two twin brothers are married. Don and Dan. Neither was saved when they got married, but now they go to church and consider themselves "saved".

Dan didn't cheat on his wife the first 5 years they were married. But for the last 5 years he has been having an affair with another married woman, looks at pornography frequently, and tells dirty jokes to the guys at work.

Which type of lifestyle is he practicing? Righteousness or unrighteousness?

Don wasn't particularly faithful to his wife the first couple of years they were married, but one night he was reading the Bible and felt convicted. He fell on his knees and confessed his sin to both God and his wife.
Both God and his wife forgave him. Don has been faithful to his wife for the last 8 years. He has quit looking at pornography and tries his best not to use crude or coarse language.

Which type of lifestyle is he practicing? Righteousness or unrighteousness?

Matt 5:20; "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

1 Pet 2:24; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.
 
Active
And that's why there's the passage that says 'by their fruits we shall know them'. Because upon salvation -- the Holy Spirit does immediately come to indwell every believer. The fruits Of that indwelling Are 'love, joy, peace, etc. which is Different than the spiritual gifts given to each believer.

The New Jerusalem is actually what we speak of as 'heaven'.

As was commented during Bible study last evening -- as a born-again believer we will Want to do what's right in God's Eyes.

That very evening -- right across the street from the church I go to -- there's a park where tennis is played. This weekend has been the Spring Challenge. I was in my car considering just skipping the Bible study for last evening because That only takes place once a years and Bible study is every week. And there was a player or two who I know that goes to a church that has no evening Bible study. Well -- I then thought -- if that guy is up for his double's match -- it will really hard to say no to that. But I didn't have to make That particular decision, but I Also all of a sudden Knew I should be across the street For Bible study. I had to realize that Bible study and learning with other believers is more important for Me than watching tennis. Though I Really Do enjoy watching the game.

Turns out that he Did play later when I Could be there.

Priorities are choosing between two 'good' things -- and Is different than actually Sinning. Unless a person would consider staying there watching tennis Would be sinning when you already knew that Bible study is More important. What is the Holy Spirit Trying to teach 'me'.
 
Active
Two hypothetical situations. Two twin brothers are married. Don and Dan. Neither was saved when they got married, but now they go to church and consider themselves "saved".

Dan didn't cheat on his wife the first 5 years they were married. But for the last 5 years he has been having an affair with another married woman, looks at pornography frequently, and tells dirty jokes to the guys at work.

Which type of lifestyle is he practicing? Righteousness or unrighteousness?

Don wasn't particularly faithful to his wife the first couple of years they were married, but one night he was reading the Bible and felt convicted. He fell on his knees and confessed his sin to both God and his wife.
Both God and his wife forgave him. Don has been faithful to his wife for the last 8 years. He has quit looking at pornography and tries his best not to use crude or coarse language.

Which type of lifestyle is he practicing? Righteousness or unrighteousness?

Matt 5:20; "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

1 Pet 2:24; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

And I Could ask if they were basing their salvation on the fact of their going to church. Maybe Neither had actually Been saved. A person 'considering' themselves saved isn't especially actually Being 'saved'.

The first one you described was obviously not practicing righteousness.

The second one was After he felt the conviction and acted on that. He was forgiven by Both God and his wife. And That could have turned out differently -- He would have received forgiveness from God but Not especially his wife.

A person's righteousness or unrighteousness Could be the lack Of or presence Of the fruits of the spirit in their lives.
 
Loyal
As was commented during Bible study last evening -- as a born-again believer we will Want to do what's right in God's Eyes.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but if we always wanted to do what was right, we would never sin. I am just curious, is there specific scripture that says "we will want to do what is right"?
Also is "wanting" to do it enough? Or do we actually have to "do" it?

Rom 7:19; For the good that I want to do , I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want to do.

It seems just because we "want" to do whats right, is no guarantee that we will.
 
Active
Thank you for Not saying that you think I'm Wrong.

When the Holy Spirit comes to indwell a person He gives us different / new / healthier desires.

There Will Always be an inner struggle for a believer. Because satan does Not want us to be effecting in our Christian living. Because a person Has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior -- satan Now wants us to be as non-affective as possible.

Wanting to 'never' sin again is what a born-again believer Should be aiming Towards. Just because we Want to obey God's Word. But because we're all born with the propensity For sinning. -- it Is our nature To sin in some way. Maybe it's as simple as having a desire to kick the dog next door because it's always trying to dig up our flowers that line the boundary of our property.

Or telling that little white lie to our spouse that the dress or 'whatever' really does look nice on him/ her simply to make them feel good. Instead of being lovingly honest. That some thing else really would look Better on him/ her.

And your comment is why it's impossible to live sinlessly in This life. Because just because we Want to do the right thing all the time, doesn't mean we Will. And we won't. But we Will have the inner desire To do the right thing.
 
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