Dave M
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you should read post 15 but its all Good we will never agree on everything I still got nothing but love for you brother !!!
GRACE vs SIN
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you should read post 15 but its all Good we will never agree on everything I still got nothing but love for you brother !!!
Ivar
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If you put it like that then with Sin being an action; Grace would be a reaction. Without Sin, Grace would not be needed. Just as without Sin the letter of the law would not be needed.
We are required to do work however it is not considered work nor is it considered a heavy burden.
Why?
1 Corinthians 10:13
__________________________
Grace is a period to get back under the Spirit of the Law.
There are at least two periods where Grace ends
The first is when we gave up the ghost and are unrepentant or have not by nature done the things contained in the spirit of the law.
regibassman57
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Bendito,
I'm working this through in my mind as I read through scripture.
I'm working this through in my mind as I read through scripture.
Ivar
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This is quite the topic you have come with. Grace vs Sin. However I do not see one existing without the other. Can Grace exist without Sin to begin with?
This is quite the topic you have come with. Grace vs Sin. However I do not see one existing without the other. Can Grace exist without Sin to begin with?
Bendito
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Of course it can...Grace is NOT mercy....Its Gods PRESENCE
Dave M
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Bendito said:
I'm sorry my friend....The first is punishment or at least chastisement. It's a consequence deserved... The second one, taking me out for ice cream is mercy. Jesus gave us eternal life when we deserved hell....Because of Mercy were saved by Grace...the empowering PRESENCE of God in us. We died, then we were born again with God...the Holy Spirit...as a part of us.
this is whear we differ my brother, we deserve HELL being spared from hell is mercy,
I'm sorry my friend....The first is punishment or at least chastisement. It's a consequence deserved... The second one, taking me out for ice cream is mercy. Jesus gave us eternal life when we deserved hell....Because of Mercy were saved by Grace...the empowering PRESENCE of God in us. We died, then we were born again with God...the Holy Spirit...as a part of us.
this is whear we differ my brother, we deserve HELL being spared from hell is mercy,
Dave M
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by definition mercy is compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm.
taking someone out for ice cream is a reward has nothing to do with forgiveness, not punishing them sending them to hell is mercy.
regibassman57
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Ok Bendito,
Let’s talk this through… I have confused this in the past, but I thought it was settled; apparently not. I’ve thought this through scripturally.
It’s not by works which we have done but according to God’s Mercy we are saved (Titus 3:5).
Before we received the Holy Ghost, we had to be cleansed from sin; this happened through Grace (Romans 5:20).
Eph 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Sin was removed by Grace (the gift), but sent through Mercy.
Luk 18:13 The publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
God answers this publican’s prayer, by being merciful and sending Grace through Jesus Christ to "atone for his sins;" as well as the sins of the world.
G2433 (merciful)
hil-as'-kom-ahee
Middle voice from the same as G2436; to conciliate, that is, (transitively) to atone for (sin), or (intransitively) be propitious: - be merciful, make reconciliation for.
This Greek definition for the term “Merciful” is speaking directly to sin. Sin is addressed through Grace, and Grace is sent in Christ through mercy.
If I'm wrong I do not see it, but pray for me and I'll continue to meditate on it.
Let’s talk this through… I have confused this in the past, but I thought it was settled; apparently not. I’ve thought this through scripturally.
It’s not by works which we have done but according to God’s Mercy we are saved (Titus 3:5).
Before we received the Holy Ghost, we had to be cleansed from sin; this happened through Grace (Romans 5:20).
Eph 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Sin was removed by Grace (the gift), but sent through Mercy.
Luk 18:13 The publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
God answers this publican’s prayer, by being merciful and sending Grace through Jesus Christ to "atone for his sins;" as well as the sins of the world.
G2433 (merciful)
hil-as'-kom-ahee
Middle voice from the same as G2436; to conciliate, that is, (transitively) to atone for (sin), or (intransitively) be propitious: - be merciful, make reconciliation for.
This Greek definition for the term “Merciful” is speaking directly to sin. Sin is addressed through Grace, and Grace is sent in Christ through mercy.
If I'm wrong I do not see it, but pray for me and I'll continue to meditate on it.
regibassman57
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Dave,
I just saw your other post, I will meditate on it and get back to you.
I just saw your other post, I will meditate on it and get back to you.
Bendito
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Yes! We were saved by grace because of mercy.
regibassman57
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Dave M and Bendito,
Consider this:
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Without God's Mercy we would not have access to His Grace.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember any more.
How was God merciful to our unrighteousness? by taking away our sins through Grace (Christ) (John 1:17). Through Grace He will not remember our sins no more, because He will not impute sin to us; all because of Grace through His mercy.
Consider this:
Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Without God's Mercy we would not have access to His Grace.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember any more.
How was God merciful to our unrighteousness? by taking away our sins through Grace (Christ) (John 1:17). Through Grace He will not remember our sins no more, because He will not impute sin to us; all because of Grace through His mercy.
regibassman57
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Ivar,
Grace is not a reaction because God is not impulsive. God sees our intent (Heb. 4:12) before He sees our actions. I agree, without sin, Grace is not needed. The law entered because of sin. No law, no sin (Romans 4:15).
Why would a person say they sin? No Law, No Sin.
The work we are required to do is in our character. It takes work to resist the devil (Jam.4:7). We are making clean the inside (Mat. 23:25,26), the heart, in order for our outward appearance of God’s word to show we’ve been exercising His word (1Timothy 4:7, 8).
As you said Ivar,
“Grace is a period to get back under the Spirit of the Law.” I believe “LOVE” is the Spirit of the Law. This was God’s intent from the beginning. Adam fell in this area.
Grace is not a reaction because God is not impulsive. God sees our intent (Heb. 4:12) before He sees our actions. I agree, without sin, Grace is not needed. The law entered because of sin. No law, no sin (Romans 4:15).
Why would a person say they sin? No Law, No Sin.
The work we are required to do is in our character. It takes work to resist the devil (Jam.4:7). We are making clean the inside (Mat. 23:25,26), the heart, in order for our outward appearance of God’s word to show we’ve been exercising His word (1Timothy 4:7, 8).
As you said Ivar,
“Grace is a period to get back under the Spirit of the Law.” I believe “LOVE” is the Spirit of the Law. This was God’s intent from the beginning. Adam fell in this area.
bibleguy
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Hey there!
You said: "We are not required to do any work to obtain the Grace that frees us "from sin." "
My response: The verse came to mind (Jas. 4:6) which confirms that God's grace extends not to everyone, but to those who are humble.
And, being humble is something that we do.
So, it appears that this grace (Jas. 4:6) extends to us who choose to be humble.
And, humble people obey God's laws.
So, God extends grace (which we could never earn) to us who humbly do works of obedience to His laws.
Just some thoughts....
blessings...
regibassman57
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Hey Bibleguy,
That is correct; I did say we are not required to do any work to obtain Grace that frees us from sin. Question, did I say it, or did God’s word say it?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Every person that comes to God must humble themselves now, by confessing that Jesus is Lord. If they don’t bow now, under Grace, they will bow later and confess that Jesus is Lord before being cast into the Lake of Fire.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, said the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Obedience is a work not to become saved from sin, it is a works we do because Jesus is our Lord.
Luk 6:46 And why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
That is correct; I did say we are not required to do any work to obtain Grace that frees us from sin. Question, did I say it, or did God’s word say it?
Eph 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Every person that comes to God must humble themselves now, by confessing that Jesus is Lord. If they don’t bow now, under Grace, they will bow later and confess that Jesus is Lord before being cast into the Lake of Fire.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, said the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Obedience is a work not to become saved from sin, it is a works we do because Jesus is our Lord.
Luk 6:46 And why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
bibleguy
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Sounds good!
Ivar
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@regibassman57
2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
1 Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
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Granted faith is a gift of God however my opinion is we have to maintain that faith which requires a degree of labor/work and accountability. Just as if we are given a gift the burden is on us to maintain the value of said gift.
Also being under law to Christ ; even though the burden is less, we do have a burden. Perhaps because that burden is light and that yoke is easy it is not seen as work;
However if we reject the burden; therefore rejecting being under the law to Christ; Then how can it be a gift of God unless we repent and seek to be under the law of Christ again?
It seems to be a gift for those that do what is considered well. To those that do not do well I do not see or understand how it would be a gift.
Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
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Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
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I phrase it like this because I know Paul's writing have been a chief cornerstone in promoting lasciviousness and there are those that conform the words of Christ to Paul and not the other way around. Not necessarily anyone on here though. One could even argue my faith is weak for saying such things however at the end of the day I have to be honest with myself. Also i have to take into account how deceitful or extremely opportunistic man can be.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
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Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Proverbs 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
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Living Faith "perpetuating works thru faith"
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2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
1 Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
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Granted faith is a gift of God however my opinion is we have to maintain that faith which requires a degree of labor/work and accountability. Just as if we are given a gift the burden is on us to maintain the value of said gift.
Also being under law to Christ ; even though the burden is less, we do have a burden. Perhaps because that burden is light and that yoke is easy it is not seen as work;
However if we reject the burden; therefore rejecting being under the law to Christ; Then how can it be a gift of God unless we repent and seek to be under the law of Christ again?
It seems to be a gift for those that do what is considered well. To those that do not do well I do not see or understand how it would be a gift.
Genesis 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I phrase it like this because I know Paul's writing have been a chief cornerstone in promoting lasciviousness and there are those that conform the words of Christ to Paul and not the other way around. Not necessarily anyone on here though. One could even argue my faith is weak for saying such things however at the end of the day I have to be honest with myself. Also i have to take into account how deceitful or extremely opportunistic man can be.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
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Proverbs 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.
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Living Faith "perpetuating works thru faith"
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regibassman57
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Ivar,
There are many scriptures that people do not understand and they wrestle with, but notice, it’s to their own destruction. This can only be because they’re looking at it from the mind of the flesh (Romans 8:5-8); not by faith. Are they ignorant, no, they refuse to see scripture for what it says.
Self explanatory verses reveal a person’s desire to see the truth or not. Instead of a person resisting the scripture, they should search for the understanding and answers to the scriptures they don’t understand; through asking questions about the scriptures they don’t understand. For instance:
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Luk 5:37 And no man puts new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desires new: for he said, The old is better.
What does this mean? If a person does not understand what this means, ask. It’s not wise to answer a question with a question. That’s adding to the confusion that already exist; in the person’s mind. Ask a question about the verse that is not understood.
I asked, “what does it mean that Jesus made us free “from sin?” I wrote the definition of “from” to give the understanding of what “from” meant in the context; other questions and scriptures were presented, but there was understanding gotten based on the initial question asked.
This can go round and round. Ask questions…
There are many scriptures that people do not understand and they wrestle with, but notice, it’s to their own destruction. This can only be because they’re looking at it from the mind of the flesh (Romans 8:5-8); not by faith. Are they ignorant, no, they refuse to see scripture for what it says.
Self explanatory verses reveal a person’s desire to see the truth or not. Instead of a person resisting the scripture, they should search for the understanding and answers to the scriptures they don’t understand; through asking questions about the scriptures they don’t understand. For instance:
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Luk 5:37 And no man puts new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desires new: for he said, The old is better.
What does this mean? If a person does not understand what this means, ask. It’s not wise to answer a question with a question. That’s adding to the confusion that already exist; in the person’s mind. Ask a question about the verse that is not understood.
I asked, “what does it mean that Jesus made us free “from sin?” I wrote the definition of “from” to give the understanding of what “from” meant in the context; other questions and scriptures were presented, but there was understanding gotten based on the initial question asked.
This can go round and round. Ask questions…
regibassman57
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Ivar,
I believe we've talked about "works" prior to this conversation. James teaches us that "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17, 20). We must do works to prove our faith is valid. This has nothing to do with justification of the law, but obedience to Christ; seeing we are justified by Christ.
I believe we've talked about "works" prior to this conversation. James teaches us that "faith without works is dead" (James 2:17, 20). We must do works to prove our faith is valid. This has nothing to do with justification of the law, but obedience to Christ; seeing we are justified by Christ.
Ivar
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@regibassman57
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit if it continues in goodness. However if it ceases to continue in goodness then it can bring forth evil fruit.
If the corrupt tree
Eze 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
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If the good tree
Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
Eze 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
Eze 33:20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
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Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun
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A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit if it continues in goodness. However if it ceases to continue in goodness then it can bring forth evil fruit.
If the corrupt tree
Eze 33:15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
Eze 33:17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
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If the good tree
Eze 33:18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
Eze 33:19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.
Eze 33:20 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. O ye house of Israel, I will judge you every one after his ways.
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Ecc 1:9 The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun
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Ivar
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Your Response:
I asked, “what does it mean that Jesus made us free “from sin?” I wrote the definition of “from” to give the understanding of what “from” meant in the context; other questions and scriptures were presented, but there was understanding gotten based on the initial question asked.
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My Response:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Made us free from the wages of Sin once we repent or do the things contained in the spirit of the law. That is my understanding.
Your Response:
I asked, “what does it mean that Jesus made us free “from sin?” I wrote the definition of “from” to give the understanding of what “from” meant in the context; other questions and scriptures were presented, but there was understanding gotten based on the initial question asked.
-------------------------------------------------------------
My Response:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Made us free from the wages of Sin once we repent or do the things contained in the spirit of the law. That is my understanding.
