GRACE vs SIN

[bibleguy]

Hey @ Bibleguy
Every man in Christ has a choice to do a particular work or action wrong or right, and God is not imputing sin unto them (1Corithians 4:8; 2Corinthians 5:19).

Under the Law of Moses, God imputed sin, because the Law witnessed against man (Deuteronomy 31:26) ; God viewed man’s actions through the Law. The Law of Moses had no relationship with man (Romans 6:23); God has a personal relationship with New Covenant believers; because He abides in them.

Under the Law of Moses, if a man unintentionally committed a certain act, and that act was against the law, that man could die. Uzzah is the perfect example. Uzzah touched the Ark of the Covenant and died. That was unintentional (Samuel 6:7).

So the point I’m making, under the New Covenant a person can do as they please through Grace, without God imputing sin or a punishment unto them; this was different under the Law of Moses (Romans 7:7).

Though God is not imputing sin unto a believer at this time, they will give account of their actions; either in this life (through man’s law), and/or in the judgment to come.

1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall “gather out of his kingdom” all things that offend, and them which do iniquity (lawlessness); (this is known as unfruitful works)

Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Notice it says, “out of God’s Kingdom?” Every so called Christian may not obtain Eternal Life.

Luk 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Hi!

You wrote: "Under the Law of Moses, God imputed sin, because the Law witnessed against man (Deuteronomy 31:26) ."

My response: You are wrong. Even in the Old Covenant, God did not impute sin (Ps. 32:1-2).

It was the same then (Ps. 32:1-2) as now (Rom. 4:7-8).

Why? Because it's the same Torah! Remember? TORAH passes directly into the NEW Covenant (Jer. 31:33).

And, Dt. 31:26 does not say "God imputed sin". So, Dt. 31:26 does not even support your claim.

You wrote: "The Law of Moses had no relationship with man (Romans 6:23); God has a personal relationship with New Covenant believers; because He abides in them."

My response: Rom. 6:23 does not support your claim. It says no such thing.

God had a personal relationship with OLD covenant believers too.

They were personally saved by grace through faith.

They were personally included as fellow participants in the covenants.

They were personally included as fellow heirs, sharing in the promised future inheritance.

They were personally included as God's children, being included in the family of God, as the people of God.

The Lord was with His people (Ps. 51:11) and was in them (Dt. 30:14; 1 Cor. 10:4).

LORD was their father (Dt. 32:6), and they were His children, being included in His family.

They were the only family known or chosen by Him (Am. 3:2a).

You wrote: "Under the Law of Moses, if a man unintentionally committed a certain act, and that act was against the law, that man could die. "

My response: This is still true, especially if the act is intentional (Heb. 10:28; 1 Cor. 5:5)

Remember, the Law of Moses is TORAH! And it passes directly into the NEW Covenant (Jer. 31:33; Heb. 8:10; 10:16). So we need to stop speaking as if Torah no longer applies.

You wrote: "So the point I’m making, under the New Covenant a person can do as they please through Grace, without God imputing sin or a punishment unto them; this was different under the Law of Moses (Romans 7:7)."

My response: Romans 7:7 does not support the claim you made here. And, if a person does "as they please through grace", then they will FAITHFULLY obey TORAH.

Why? Because remaining in grace presumes that we continue to obey Torah (Ex. 33:13; 1 Ki. 2:3).

Grace does not extend to everyone! It extends to HUMBLE people (Jas. 4:6), and humble people obey TORAH (Nu. 12:3; Ps. 25:9; Zep. 2:3).

Agreed?

blessings....

 

[regibassman57]

@bibleguy,
God imputed sin through the law, under the Mosaic Law.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

 

[bibleguy]

@bibleguy,
God imputed sin through the law, under the Mosaic Law.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

Hi again!

God did NOT impute sin to those who were blessed (Ps. 32:2) under Mosaic law.

It's not correct for you to ignore Ps. 32:2.

Ps. 32:2 plainly states that the iniquity is NOT imputed in that Mosaic-law era, if those people are blessed.

That's why you need to retract your comment on this point....

blessings...

 

[regibassman57]

@bibleguy,
No retraction necessary. The first covenant was a “sin” covenant; this is why God gave Israel the law (Gal.3:19). The Judicial Law condemned Israel and convicted them of sin. The wages of sin was death (Rom.6:23).

If God was not imputing or charging sin unto Israel, He would not recognize their sin and would have not given them a law to reveal their sin (Rom. 5:20). If a person walked upright in the Law, "why would God impute sin unto that person"; that person is blessed? That is what Psa. 32:2 is saying.

Psa 119:1 "Blessed" are the undefiled in the way, "who walk in the law of the LORD."

 

[bibleguy]

@bibleguy,
No retraction necessary. The first covenant was a “sin” covenant; this is why God gave Israel the law (Gal.3:19). The Judicial Law condemned Israel and convicted them of sin. The wages of sin was death (Rom.6:23).

If God was not imputing or charging sin unto Israel, He would not recognize their sin and would have not given them a law to reveal their sin (Rom. 5:20). If a person walked upright in the Law, "why would God impute sin unto that person"; that person is blessed? That is what Psa. 32:2 is saying.

Psa 119:1 "Blessed" are the undefiled in the way, "who walk in the law of the LORD."

Sounds like you agree that people who obeyed Torah (in the Old Covenant) did not have sin imputed to them, as Ps. 32:2 states.

If so, then we agree.

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
God is a Righteous judge. I'm not agreeing with you that God did not impute sin under the Old Covenant. If a person obeyed in general, God is not going to impute sin because the person did not sin.

 

[bibleguy]

Bibleguy,
God is a Righteous judge. I'm not agreeing with you that God did not impute sin under the Old Covenant. If a person obeyed in general, God is not going to impute sin because the person did not sin.

Then you just contradicted Ps. 32:1-2. This passage is talking about people who SINNED (Ps. 32:1), yet no sin (or iniquity or transgression) is IMPUTED because they are FORGIVEN of those SINS which they committed..

Therefore (according to this very passage), God did NOT impute sin (under the old covenant) for anyone who was FORGIVEN of those sins which they DID commit.

Thus, you're wrong to suggest that God abstains from imputing sin (under the Old Covenant) only if "the person did not sin".

Why? Because people (described in Ps. 32) DID SIN! Yet God did NOT IMPUTE those SINS which they DID COMMIT.

Agreed?

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
When you read Psa. 32:1, David says, blessed is the man whose transgression is forgiven.
In order for a person’s to be forgiven, they had to sin. If they sinned, God imputed sin unto them.

No contradiction...

Israel had to offer sacrifices in order to be forgiven, and God would not remember their sins. After Israel offered sacrifices for their sins, God would cast their sins as far as the east is from the west never to impute or remember their sins; past tense. (Psa. 103:12)

 

[bibleguy]

Bibleguy,
When you read Psa. 32:1, David says, blessed is the man whose transgression is forgiven.
In order for a person’s to be forgiven, they had to sin. If they sinned, God imputed sin unto them.

No contradiction...

Israel had to offer sacrifices in order to be forgiven, and God would not remember their sins. After Israel offered sacrifices for their sins, God would cast their sins as far as the east is from the west never to impute or remember their sins; past tense. (Psa. 103:12)

Hi! You wrote: "If they sinned, God imputed sin unto them."

My response: Rather, they sinned (Ps. 32:1), and God did NOT impute (Heb. "חָשַׁב", H2803) that sin (Ps. 32:2).

Not sure why you are so resistant to accept the plain statement (here in Ps. 32:1-2) where we find people who SINNED, yet SIN was NOT imputed.

Or, are you saying that first sin was imputed, and then sin was subsequently "non-imputed" for those who were forgiven under the old covenant?

If so, then we are both correct.

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
The law from God entered because of sin. God imputed sin unto man through the law because of sin (Gal. 3:19). The law entered that sin might abound (Rom.3:20). Paul said, He had not known sin except by the law (Rom. 7:7). The law was given by God that sin could be imputed unto man. What ever the law said, it said to them that are under/justified by the law (Rom 3:19). By the law is the knowledge of sin (Rom. 3:20).

Believer have not such law imputing sin unto them.

 

[bibleguy]

Bibleguy,
The law from God entered because of sin. God imputed sin unto man through the law because of sin (Gal. 3:19). The law entered that sin might abound (Rom.3:20). Paul said, He had not known sin except by the law (Rom. 7:7). The law was given by God that sin could be imputed unto man. What ever the law said, it said to them that are under/justified by the law (Rom 3:19). By the law is the knowledge of sin (Rom. 3:20).

Believer have not such law imputing sin unto them.

And believers sometimes still sin.

Remember? YOU have conceded that you sometimes do NOT do what is right.

And, Jas. 4:17 plainly states that you SIN when you do NOT do what is right.

So, let's not ignore Jas. 4:17.

We need ALL Scripture to be included in our theology...

blessings...

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
I'll dealing with your text one at a time. If you have time you should look at my post, "WHAT IS AN UNFRUITFUL BELIEVER"

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
Let's discuss and dissect 1John 3:9. I've added my thoughts; what are yours?

1Jo 3:9
Whosoever is born of God “does not commit sin”; for his seed remains in him: and he “cannot sin,” because he is born of God.

Question: How can a person read 1John 3:9, and conclude this verse to say, a believer born of GOD, “does not” nor “cannot” practice sin; as oppose to, “does not” and “cannot” sin?

The double negative in this verse says, a born again believer, “does not sin,” and he “cannot sin.”

A person that practices sin is a person that sins more than one time. This is a person that repeats an offence and/or act of sin habitually. Scripture does not specify an act of sin must be the same habitual action to be classified as practicing sin. If a believer commits one sinful act a day; that believer habitually sins. If a believer commits 15 different sinful acts a day; or a Month; that believer practices sin.

It is one thing to say, a believer does not practice sin, but it’s another thing to say, a believer “cannot sin.” This scripture says, a believer “cannot sin;” meaning habitually or a single act.

This scripture does not say, whoever is born of God does not commit the same sin over and over habitually. It says, whoever is born of God "does not sin" and "cannot sin.".

G4160 (commits)
poieō
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.

G4238 (commits)
prassō
A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually “thus differing from G4160”, which properly “refers to a single act”); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.

 

[regibassman57]

Bibleguy,
Let's discuss and dissect 1John 3:9. I've added my thoughts; what are yours?

1Jo 3:9
Whosoever is born of God “does not commit sin”; for his seed remains in him: and he “cannot sin,” because he is born of God.

Born into a different nature (Rom. 11:24) (1Pe. 1:23) (Col.1:13)

Question: How can a person read 1John 3:9, and conclude this verse to say, a believer born of GOD, “does not” nor “cannot” practice sin; as oppose to, “does not” and “cannot” sin?

The double negative in this verse says, a born again believer, “does not sin,” and he “cannot sin.”

A person that practices sin is a person that sins more than one time. This is a person that repeats an offence and/or act of sin habitually. Scripture does not specify an act of sin must be the same habitual action to be classified as practicing sin; "sin is sin." If a believer commits one sinful act a day; that believer habitually sins. If a believer commits 15 different sinful acts a day; or a Month; that believer practices sin.

It is one thing to say, a believer does not practice sin, but it’s another thing to say, a believer “cannot sin.” This scripture says, a believer “cannot sin;” meaning habitually or a single act.

This scripture does not say, whoever is born of God does not commit the same sin over and over habitually. It says, whoever is born of God "does not sin" and "cannot sin.".

G4160 (commits)
poieō
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.

G4238 (commits)
prassō
A primary verb; to “practise”, that is, perform repeatedly or habitually “thus differing from G4160”, which properly “refers to a single act”); by implication to execute, accomplish, etc.; specifically to collect (dues), fare (personally): - commit, deeds, do, exact, keep, require, use arts.

As Jesus said, whoever commits sin is the servant of sin. This is because there is no sin in the body of Christ (Joh 8:34). If a person believes they sin, they do not, by faith, believe that Jesus has taken away thier sin. They are no different than the first covenant believers whose sins were forgiven; but could not be take away (Heb. 10:1-4, 11, 12; Rom. 8:3; Acts 13:39; Gal. 3:13).

1Jo 3:5 And you know that Jesus was manifested to take away (remove) our sins; and in him is no sin.

1Jo 3:6 Whosoever abides in Jesus "sins not:" (does not miss the mark) whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 3:8 He that commits sin (G4160, a single act) is of the devil; for the devil sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[regibassman57]

@Life
God has not declared a believer Righteous/innocent of sin because the person does or has done any Righteous acts? God through His Mercy and Grace (Tit. 3:5) has imputed all man’s sins unto Jesus Christ and has imputed Righteousness unto all believers without their works (2Cor. 5:21; 1Pe.2:24; Isa. 53).

Eph 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith; and that “not of yourselves”: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 “Not of works,” lest any man should boast.

We as believers cannot boast if we refrain from the term and action of sin, neither can we have the lack of faith if we are unfruitful and have committed unfruitful works. We by faith must believe what God has said about us, in His mind; HE has declared us Righteous. Can God see a believer in the light of anything else but Righteousness? No, God is not judging man’s works at this time and He sees them only through His eyes of faith (1Cor. 4:5; Heb. 11:1). One of the characteristics of God is Faith (Gal. 5:22, 23).

Did Abraham do any works for God to declare him Righteous?

Gen 15:6 And Abraham “believed in the LORD;” and God counted it to him for righteousness. (Rom. 4:1-4; 5:13).

Did Abraham sin in different ways and lie to the King and say Sarah was not his wife but his sister (Gen. 20:2)? Did Abraham sleep with Hagar and did God impute sin unto him for anything Abraham had the lack of faith for (Gen. 16:4; Rom. 4:6-8)?

Did God tell Abraham he was a father of many nations even though he did not have any children and Sarah was barren? Did Abraham “believe God” would make him a father of many nations though Sara was barren? Did God teach Abraham to call things which did not appear to make sense, as though they did (Rom. 4:17)? It’s the principle of what God teaches, not the simple reading of His words. Get wisdom, but with all you getting, get understanding (Pro. 4:7)

Is a God teaching a believer, He is not imputing sin unto them, as He did not impute sin unto Abraham?