God loves everybody?

[rojoloco]

You are certainly entitled to your own interpretation and opinion my friend. Regardless of your opinion or mine it is the many who are called. The few chosen are the elect according to foreknowledge.

I have a challenge for you. Instead of posting new verses in an attempt to back up your view, try breaking apart the verses I gave. I already posted much showing how if it were solely the foreknowledge of God of a choice we would make, He would have foreseen all of us going to Hell as nobody would have chosen Him. As it stands, the text says everybody God foreknew, He chose. Not that He knew everybody and only chose some. There is no getting around this fact.

Mat 22:14 ForG1063 manyG4183 areG1526 called,G2822 butG1161 fewG3641 are chosen.G1588

Indeed, many are called with an external call. We are called to be fishers of men. We are called to preach Christ crucified. Many will hear this external call. However, many will also reject this external call for it is impossible to comply with it unless God has first changed our nature and desires to be conformed to Him. Many are called but out of the many, only a few are chosen by God. Chosen by God. We cannot save ourselves.

Can man choose?

No. John 8:44 is clear on this. The only thing the unsaved can choose is to comply to Satan willingly.

Jos 24:15 And ifH518 it seem evilH7489 unto youH5869 to serveH5647 (H853) the LORD,H3068 chooseH977 you this dayH3117 (H853) whomH4310 ye will serve;H5647 whetherH518 (H853) the godsH430 whichH834 your fathersH1 servedH5647 thatH834 were on the other sideH5676 of the flood,H5104 orH518 (H853) the godsH430 of the Amorites,H567 in whose landH776 yeH859 dwell:H3427 but as for meH595 and my house,H1004 we will serveH5647 (H853) the LORD.H3068

Deu 30:19 I callH5749 (H853) heavenH8064 and earthH776 to record this dayH3117 against you, that I have setH5414 beforeH6440 you lifeH2416 and death,H4194 blessingH1293 and cursing:H7045 therefore chooseH977 life,H2416 thatH4616 both thouH859 and thy seedH2233 may live:H2421

You are comparing a finite view with an infinite view. From our finite view, it appears as if we are choosing God. From His infinite perspective (and in accordance with His Word), we can see the only reason we made the "choice" is because He first called us into the fold and changed our nature through regeneration.

Can all come?
Mat 11:28 ComeG1205 untoG4314 me,G3165 allG3956 ye that labourG2872 andG2532 are heavy laden,G5412 and IG2504 will give you rest.G373 G5209
Note that the Greek word pas that is used here for all actually means all.:shade:

The "all" is clearly not saying that all will be saved. It is not saying all will come to Jesus. Again, if this were the case, all would be saved. Are you a Universalist? Since not all people will come to Jesus, we must look for the proper context. It does indeed give the invitation to all but who exactly is the "all" referring to? It is in accordance with John 6:37.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me

The same Greek word "pas" is used here as well. However, it is not inferring that every person is given to the Son by the Father. To claim such would be a horrid misuse of Scripture. In the same manner, one cannot use your verse to claim that every person is being invited to come to Jesus. Just as the "pas" in John 8:44 refers to the Elect only, so does the "pas" in Matthew 11:28.

If it were not for God's grace my friend none could come.

Almost but not quite. If it were not for God's grace, none would come. The use of the word "could" implies a choice. We do not have a choice. We are compelled by our nature. While unsaved, we were driven by a carnal nature and would never have chosen God. From the point of regeneration, we were given a new nature and not cling to God through our rebirthing in Christ.

Jesus plainly sacrificed Himself for all:

1Jn 2:2 AndG2532 heG846 isG2076 the propitiationG2434 forG4012 ourG2257 sins:G266 andG1161 notG3756 forG4012 oursG2251 only,G3440 butG235 alsoG2532 forG4012 the sins of theG3588 wholeG3650 world.G2889

I already addressed this. In the end, when every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, everything will be reconciled to Him. Despite this, this is not the context of the passage at hand. There will be no discrimination. All whom the Father has given to the Son will be saved. Every single one of the Elect in the world will be reconciled to the Father.

 

[rojoloco]

I'll ask the same question here that I asked you in another forum: What is the basis of God's decision making as to whom to chose if not His foreknowledge of how we will choose? Wouldn't any other basis be arbitrary and therefore a violation of His loving nature?

SLE

The basis of His decision making is His Will. However, this does not sit well with most people. Instead of giving all glory to God, they choose to cling to some remnant of self control. Instead of giving all praise to God, they withhold a reason to boast in their "decision" making. Instead of acknowledging the sovereignty of God, they amount God to nothing more than a coach on the sidelines who hopes people will listen to Him.

God's decision making is not based on our actions. Our actions are based on His decision making. God is love but He does not love everybody. I have posted many verses of individual people whom God hated. He could not love them yet hate them at the same time. Just because God is love does not mean He is incapable of hating.

 

[jakes]

The chosen!

Rojoloco, you got it right there. God made his decision based on His Will, and His Will is that we would hear the Call and follow the Lead of the Spirit. Now, who hears and who follows and persevere till the end? Well, let us look at the steps of salvation.

Every saved person's salvation starts with the Calling of God! Not a single person would be saved through Jesus Christ, if God did not call him first! My calling i would have to say was how God showed me the filthy things in my life... All the strip shows and filthy parties and lies and adultery....etc. All of a sudden, what was a minute ago still OK in my life, was now FILTH! My daily practices that did not bother me before, was now made a disgusting and rejectable lifestyle. I wanted it changed, ALL of it.

It all happened while people were singing the Lord's Prayer. That day, the Holy Spirit just showed me how filthy sin is! That is all that happened there. I was not saved or chosen or Spirit filled or any of the instant salvation cures that so many people claim they recieved. No the road to Father only started there. My calling from Father is only a conviction of sin.

Ok I did agree to go to church with my wife and daughters that day, but I did not go to be saved, or worship, I went as a favour to my wife. But when Father decided to show me my life, and He awakened the knowledge of righteousness in me, I wanted to change.

Let me assure you all that are called would like to change. But few persevere till the end of change. I have not reached "the end" yet, but I hope I would persevere till my end.

Now who does go through all the Way? I suppose the ones God knew who would, and they are the ones that chose to go through. All chose to start, but few went through all the way! MANY got lost in temptation, but that is their own choice. The calling is to perfection, but most never reached it!

May God's will be done in our lives... spiritled, Boanerges, veracity, aristotle.. shipwrecksole.. jiggyfly and all the others that wants it, I am sure will get it. God's Will in their lives.

 

[rojoloco]

I want to comment on your post jakes. It almost sounds as if you are saying perseverance is not a promise of God. I believe the only way for one to respond to the call of God is if God calls us first. I believe we can reject the outward call but once God performs the inward call, it is irresistible. Once that inward call is made, we are regenerated and saved through faith; faith that never would have come had God not regenerated us first. I also believe that those who have been saved are secure in Christ and nobody can snatch us out of the Father's hand. Therefore, all who are saved are given the promise of perseverance. If perseverance does not occur, that person was never really saved to begin with and were as the first 3 seeds in the parable of the sower.

 

[jiggyfly]

The basis of His decision making is His Will. However, this does not sit well with most people. Instead of giving all glory to God, they choose to cling to some remnant of self control. Instead of giving all praise to God, they withhold a reason to boast in their "decision" making. Instead of acknowledging the sovereignty of God, they amount God to nothing more than a coach on the sidelines who hopes people will listen to Him.

So what is God's "Will" concerning everyone?

God's decision making is not based on our actions. Our actions are based on His decision making. God is love but He does not love everybody. I have posted many verses of individual people whom God hated. He could not love them yet hate them at the same time. Just because God is love does not mean He is incapable of hating.

Maybe you should do a deeper study than just following KJV translation errors. Study these things out in the original languages and maybe you will see things differently.

 

[Boanerges]

I have a challenge for you. Instead of posting new verses in an attempt to back up your view, try breaking apart the verses I gave. I already posted much showing how if it were solely the foreknowledge of God of a choice we would make, He would have foreseen all of us going to Hell as nobody would have chosen Him. As it stands, the text says everybody God foreknew, He chose. Not that He knew everybody and only chose some. There is no getting around this fact.
The challenge seems inappropriate as the scriptures are taken completely out of their proper context. If my posting the Word disturbs you I apologize.
BTW, that is quite a display of verbal acrobatics! LOL! Are you saying God does not foreknow everyone? I do not serve such a limited God.
In my experience some folks just can't see the "forest for the trees" through the clouds of denominational teaching.
[/B]
Indeed, many are called with an external call. We are called to be fishers of men. We are called to preach Christ crucified. Many will hear this external call. However, many will also reject this external call for it is impossible to comply with it unless God has first changed our nature and desires to be conformed to Him. Many are called but out of the many, only a few are chosen by God. Chosen by God. We cannot save ourselves.
We finally agree on something, Hallelujah! We cannot save our selves, yet I can save another by leading them to repentance :shade:.

Still the many are called, only those who will hear and come are chosen.


No. John 8:44 is clear on this. The only thing the unsaved can choose is to comply to Satan willingly.
That is a complete misuse of that scripture.


[/B] You are comparing a finite view with an infinite view. From our finite view, it appears as if we are choosing God. From His infinite perspective (and in accordance with His Word), we can see the only reason we made the "choice" is because He first called us into the fold and changed our nature through regeneration.
Finite, infinite, I prefer to leave the lofty theological theories out of it and discuss the Word.
What you say there cannot be true because the those folks in those verses were not born again therefore not regenerated.


The "all" is clearly not saying that all will be saved. It is not saying all will come to Jesus. Again, if this were the case, all would be saved. Are you a Universalist? Since not all people will come to Jesus, we must look for the proper context. It does indeed give the invitation to all but who exactly is the "all" referring to? It is in accordance with John 6:37.
Obviously you completely missed the point of that verse.That is a common occurrence for folks who view everything through denominational glasses. It was not universalism but simply demonstrating that the call goes to all.


The same Greek word "pas" is used here as well. However, it is not inferring that every person is given to the Son by the Father.
Agreed, only those He foreknows does He predestine. To claim such would be a horrid misuse of Scripture. In the same manner, one cannot use your verse to claim that every person is being invited to come to Jesus. Just as the "pas" in John 8:44 refers to the Elect only, so does the "pas" in Matthew 11:28.




Almost but not quite. If it were not for God's grace, none would come. The use of the word "could" implies a choice. We do not have a choice. We are compelled by our nature. While unsaved, we were driven by a carnal nature and would never have chosen God. From the point of regeneration, we were given a new nature and not cling to God through our rebirthing in Christ.
The dog is chasing his tail here. We can't come because we are not born again (Regenerated)? Quite simply that is confusion. One cannot be regenterated until one comes under the blood.
[/B]

I already addressed this. In the end, when every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, everything will be reconciled to Him. Despite this, this is not the context of the passage at hand. There will be no discrimination. All whom the Father has given to the Son will be saved. Every single one of the Elect in the world will be reconciled to the Father.
While you did indeed address this your intrepretation falls short of the simple fact that Christ died for all and His repeated call was to the "any man" who would "hear Him knock". Your version of hyper predestination seriously underestimates the power of the grace of God.

Thanks for the discussion, I always enjoy it.

 

[Boanerges]

If I may add this, your use of John 8:44 as a proof test that none can come to God is completely unrelated to the context of the scripture.
Jesus was addressing a particular group of religious men who both challenged Him and rejected Him.

 

[rojoloco]

So what is God's "Will" concerning everyone?

His Will concerning everyone is that everyone brings Him glory. This will either happen as a vessel fitted unto glory through His mercy or as a vessel fitted unto destruction through His wrath. We all start out as the same lump of clay and God makes us to be whatever we will be. This is His Will and who are we to question it? (Romans 9)

Maybe you should do a deeper study than just following KJV translation errors. Study these things out in the original languages and maybe you will see things differently.

Not really sure what you mean here by "following KJV translation errors." I personally use the NASB however, I never rest solely on any English translation. I am quite fond of my Strong's Concordance, Greek to English Interlinear New Testament, and Hebrew to English Interlinear Old Testament. I've been studying this area in depth for the last 6 years using Scripture as a whole as well as the original language. I think the hardest part for people to get over is the sovereignty of God. Once this doctrine is accepted, everything else just sort of falls into place.

 

[rojoloco]

The challenge seems inappropriate as the scriptures are taken completely out of their proper context. If my posting the Word disturbs you I apologize.
BTW, that is quite a display of verbal acrobatics! LOL! Are you saying God does not foreknow everyone? I do not serve such a limited God.
In my experience some folks just can't see the "forest for the trees" through the clouds of denominational teaching.

anergThere is a difference is God's foreknowledge of the Elect and His foreknowledge of the rest. Of course God knows all. He knew all since before the beginning but the fact remains that the verse we were discussing is using foreknowledge in a specific way. It clearly states those whom He foreknew, He predestined. How do you reconcile this to your way of thinking? You would either have to admit God chose the Elect not based on anything He saw us doing but rather of His own Will or you would have to be a Universalist. Those are really the only 2 options.

We finally agree on something, Hallelujah! We cannot save our selves, yet I can save another by leading them to repentance

Negative. I can preach Christ crucified and should God choose, He can save that person. My job would have ended at the outward call. It is up to God whether or not that person will receive the internal call so that the outward call can come to fruition.

Still the many are called, only those who will hear and come are chosen.

And the only ones who are chosen will come.

That is a complete misuse of that scripture.

I would love to hear your interpretation of it as the way I look at it, it is pretty cut and dry with no wiggle room for doctrinal error.

Finite, infinite, I prefer to leave the lofty theological theories out of it and discuss the Word.
What you say there cannot be true because the those folks in those verses were not born again therefore not regenerated.

Are you so sure about that? They may not have been regenerated in the sense that we are today through Christ with the Spirit residing within us but they were certainly regenerated in the sense of their desires. The only way to follow after God (authentically and not just temporary) is if He first changes our nature and changes our desires.

Obviously you completely missed the point of that verse.That is a common occurrence for folks who view everything through denominational glasses. It was not universalism but simply demonstrating that the call goes to all.

Then all would be saved. It straight up says all whom He foreknew, He predestined. Like I said, one must either be a Universalist or acknowledge the fact that the foreknowledge being spoken of refers to a specific group of people. In this case, it is the Elect. I broke down the Greek just as you did. The difference is that I also used more than just one verse to make a point. You used one to say the "all" must mean all people whereas I used a verse to show how the "all" clearly refers to a specific group.

The dog is chasing his tail here. We can't come because we are not born again (Regenerated)? Quite simply that is confusion. One cannot be regenterated until one comes under the blood.

See, this is where the confusion of modern times has led us. If we date back to hundreds of years ago, we can see that the order of grace, faith, and then regeneration was seen to be heresy. The proper Biblical order is grace, regeneration, and then faith.

I wrote a sermon on this very topic for one of my services earlier this deployment. Maybe it will help:
http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/30304-leadership-role-ship-2.html#post148326

While you did indeed address this your intrepretation falls short of the simple fact that Christ died for all and His repeated call was to the "any man" who would "hear Him knock". Your version of hyper predestination seriously underestimates the power of the grace of God.

You are correct. The inward call is for any man who will hear Him knock. Of course, God foreknows who will hear Him knock. It is only those whom He calls. He calls those who will hear. They only hear because He calls. We see a limited group being called. This limited group is the Elect.

You say I am underestimating the power of the grace of God. To that I say nay. I am lifting up the sovereignty of God and giving the grace of God more glory than anyone can possibly do when they rob Him of His grace by attributing their own, strength, power, and might into salvation.

 

[rojoloco]

If I may add this, your use of John 8:44 as a proof test that none can come to God is completely unrelated to the context of the scripture.
Jesus was addressing a particular group of religious men who both challenged Him and rejected Him.

Well, we might as well post it again.

You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

What can we draw from this?

1) We are of the devil before we are saved.
2) The devil is our father before we are saved.
3) We want to do the desire of our father
4) Before we are saved, our father is the devil (see point 2)
5) Before we are saved, we want to do the desires of Satan.
6) Satan is a murderer
7) Satan is a liar
8) There is no truth is Satan
9) Satan speaks of his own nature
10) Satan is the father of lies

I think that about covers it. Out of everything in there, I'd say points 1-5 are relevant to the discussion at hand.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

God's decision making is not based on our actions. Our actions are based on His decision making. God is love but He does not love everybody. I have posted many verses of individual people whom God hated.

So, in your opinion, God has arbitrarily decided who is "In" and who is "Out" where salvation is concerned. Which file is your name in? and how can you be certain of that?

SLE

 

[rojoloco]

So, in your opinion, God has arbitrarily decided who is "In" and who is "Out" where salvation is concerned. Which file is your name in? and how can you be certain of that?

SLE

In a word: YES!

As for where I stand, I know beyond a shadow of a doubt I am one of God's Elect. Scripture says we will know each other by our fruit. Scripture also says what the fruit of the Spirit is. Scripture also says that only one who has the Spirit can understand the things of the Spirit.

By all of these things plus a love that can only be felt from God, I can know that I am one of His Elect and I am ever so thankful that He called me out of my sin and drew me unto Himself when all I deserved was eternal death.

 

[Boanerges]

[/COLOR]anergThere is a difference is God's foreknowledge of the Elect and His foreknowledge of the rest. Of course God knows all. He knew all since before the beginning but the fact remains that the verse we were discussing is using foreknowledge in a specific way. It clearly states those whom He foreknew, He predestined. How do you reconcile this to your way of thinking? You would either have to admit God chose the Elect not based on anything He saw us doing but rather of His own Will or you would have to be a Universalist. Those are really the only 2 options.

First the only way I am a universalist is that I universally disagree with your religion.

[/COLOR]Negative. I can preach Christ crucified and should God choose, He can save that person. My job would have ended at the outward call. It is up to God whether or not that person will receive the internal call so that the outward call can come to fruition.
So you disagree with scripture?
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Just remember He wrote it not me.

And the only ones who are chosen will come.
And the only ones that come were according to foreknowledge.


I would love to hear your interpretation of it as the way I look at it, it is pretty cut and dry with no wiggle room for doctrinal error.
You have already heard it if you read my post. Jesus is addressing a specific group of religious people that are rejecting Him. All you have to do is read the chapter to see that point plainly illustrated. If we began to use your out of context "shotgun" approach with scripture then we would really be universalists. Are you a secret universalist? :shock:LOL.

Are you so sure about that? They may not have been regenerated in the sense that we are today through Christ with the Spirit residing within us but they were certainly regenerated in the sense of their desires. The only way to follow after God (authentically and not just temporary) is if He first changes our nature and changes our desires.
There seems to be no scriptural; basis for that. No one was born again or regenerated till Jesus rose from the dead. All the old testament saints waited in Abraham's bosom till that day. Even the Apostles seemed to be little more than bumbling flesh before Pentecost so yes I am sure.



Then all would be saved. It straight up says all whom He foreknew, He predestined. Like I said, one must either be a Universalist or acknowledge the fact that the foreknowledge being spoken of refers to a specific group of people. In this case, it is the Elect. I broke down the Greek just as you did. The difference is that I also used more than just one verse to make a point. You used one to say the "all" must mean all people whereas I used a verse to show how the "all" clearly refers to a specific group.
To believe that line of thought I would have to assume God could not differentiate the difference between those who would choose His gift of love through Christ and those who would reject it. The only evidence that one would have to choose between those two lines of thought is your opinion.


See, this is where the confusion of modern times has led us. If we date back to hundreds of years ago, we can see that the order of grace, faith, and then regeneration was seen to be heresy. The proper Biblical order is grace, regeneration, and then faith.

I wrote a sermon on this very topic for one of my services earlier this deployment. Maybe it will help:
http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/30304-leadership-role-ship-2.html#post148326

I read some of your article but must confess I did not finish it as I do not subscribe to Calvinism nor any other major religious movement.
Conviction comes from God but it must be followed by repentance and Lordship of Christ. The Oil (Holy Spirit) will never goes where the blood (of Christ) has not been applied.

You are correct. The inward call is for any man who will hear Him knock. Of course, God foreknows who will hear Him knock. It is only those whom He calls. He calls those who will hear. They only hear because He calls. We see a limited group being called. This limited group is the Elect.
Yet He calls any man:
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
He calls the any but the chosen are elect (out of the many) according to foreknowledge (of their choices). His call to the any here includes the receiving of the Holy Spirit to those who believe.

You say I am underestimating the power of the grace of God. To that I say nay. I am lifting up the sovereignty of God and giving the grace of God more glory than anyone can possibly do when they rob Him of His grace by attributing their own, strength, power, and might into salvation.
Nay right back at ya! I attribute nothing to myself. There are those who will love the presence of God, He knows them and He saves them and there are those who will hate and/or reject Him those He will condemn to just what they ask for- eternal separation from His love and fellowship.

It is His kindness that leads us to repentance.

Looking at the following verses:
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

I can easily make the following observations:
Whosoever (mentioned 2) can be saved.
This whosoever is the same pas we discussed earlier and means- all,any, every, the whole

From the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

If Paul had your theology he would not worry about sending preachers out as God would save those lost souls regardless. This would render evangelism useless and thus the office of evangelist would never frivolously have been created.

 

[rojoloco]

If Paul had your theology he would not worry about sending preachers out as God would save those lost souls regardless. This would render evangelism useless and thus the office of evangelist would never frivolously have been created.

This is the common argument of one who does not understand predestination. Just because God knows those whom He has chosen, this does not mean I know. All I know is that God has commanded me to be a fisher of men and to preach Christ crucified.

You claim that if God has it all planned out, there is no need for evangelists so He must not have things set in stone. I have also heard the argument that if God truly is God, He never needed to send Christ to die for our sins as He could have snapped His fingers and made it okay so therefore, He must not be God. Same concept, different subject. There is no end to your line of thinking. There is no place to draw the line. However, with the Truth, we know what we are to do even if we do not know why we are to do it. God telling me if enough for me to gladly be His bondservant.

 

[jiggyfly]

It is very much so what Scripture says...when interpreted with the rest of Scripture. Proper hermeneutics is important in an exegetical study of the text at hand.

Then include it in your post and lets examine it.:shade:

 

[jiggyfly]

[/COLOR]This is the common argument of one who does not understand predestination. Just because God knows those whom He has chosen, this does not mean I know. All I know is that God has commanded me to be a fisher of men and to preach Christ crucified.

You claim that if God has it all planned out, there is no need for evangelists so He must not have things set in stone. I have also heard the argument that if God truly is God, He never needed to send Christ to die for our sins as He could have snapped His fingers and made it okay so therefore, He must not be God. Same concept, different subject. There is no end to your line of thinking. There is no place to draw the line. However, with the Truth, we know what we are to do even if we do not know why we are to do it. God telling me if enough for me to gladly be His bondservant.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Boanerges]

This is the common argument of one who does not understand predestination

It is common amongst those who do understand hyper-predestination as well. While it is completely opposite of my trian of though it can be the logical conclusion of said hyper predestination.

Choice
Predestination
both are scriptural but only God's foreknowledge can marry the two.

 

[rojoloco]

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

You are correct. None of the Elect will perish. You are forgetting that Peter is speaking to a specific crowd here. First off, we know many will perish so we can toss that idea. Furthermore, if it were the Will of God for all men to be saved, all men would be saved. Plain and simple. We can toss that idea as well. In the proper context, it is speaking of the Elect, the "us" whom God predestined before the foundation of the world. None of the Elect will perish.

The longsuffering (or patience) part goes hand in hand with Romans 5:8 where it speaks of God loving His Elect even before He changed our nature. He had a plan and that plan was changing me to be His at some point in time. Even while I was against God in my own sin, He loved me because I was a vessel fitted unto glory through His mercy and grace. I just didn't know it yet. Despite this, He knew and He was patient. Instead of destroying me in my sin, He carried out His plan with much longsuffering because He has promised that none of His Elect will perish.

 

[rojoloco]

It is common amongst those who do understand hyper-predestination as well. While it is completely opposite of my trian of though it can be the logical conclusion of said hyper predestination.

Choice
Predestination
both are scriptural but only God's foreknowledge can marry the two. <!-- / message --> <!-- sig -->

I recommend 2 wonderful books for you to read on the matter:

1) The Sovereignty of God by A.W. Pink (circa 1918)
2) The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther (circa 1525)

 

[cman77]

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28142">Romans Chapter 9
1</sup>I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit— <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28143">2</sup>I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28144">3</sup>For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28145">4</sup>the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28146">5</sup>Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised!<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-28146a&quot; title=&quot;See footnote a&quot;>a</a>]">[a]</sup> Amen. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28147">6</sup>It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28148">7</sup>Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned."<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-28148b&quot; title=&quot;See footnote b&quot;>b</a>]">[b]</sup> <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28149">8</sup>In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28150">9</sup>For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-28150c&quot; title=&quot;See footnote c&quot;>c</a>]">[c]</sup>
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28151">10</sup>Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28152">11</sup>Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28153">12</sup>not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-28153d&quot; title=&quot;See footnote d&quot;>d</a>]">[d]</sup> <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28154">13</sup>Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-28154e&quot; title=&quot;See footnote e&quot;>e</a>]">[e]</sup>
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28155">14</sup>What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28156">15</sup>For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-28156f&quot; title=&quot;See footnote f&quot;>f</a>]">[f]</sup> <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28157">16</sup>It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28158">17</sup>For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-28158g&quot; title=&quot;See footnote g&quot;>g</a>]">[g]</sup> <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28159">18</sup>Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28160">19</sup>One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28161">20</sup>But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-28161h&quot; title=&quot;See footnote h&quot;>h</a>]">[h]</sup> <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28162">21</sup>Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28163">22</sup>What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28164">23</sup>What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28165">24</sup>even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28166">25</sup>As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-28166i&quot; title=&quot;See footnote i&quot;>i</a>]">[i]</sup> <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28167">26</sup>and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-28167j&quot; title=&quot;See footnote j&quot;>j</a>]">[j]</sup>
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28168">27</sup>Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28169">28</sup>For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-28169k&quot; title=&quot;See footnote k&quot;>k</a>]">[k]</sup>
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28170">29</sup>It is just as Isaiah said previously:
"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah."<sup class="footnote" value="[<a href=&quot;#fen-NIV-28170l&quot; title=&quot;See footnote l&quot;>l</a>]">[l]</sup>
Israel's Unbelief

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28171">30</sup>What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28172">31</sup>but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28173">32</sup>Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-28174">33</sup>As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[