Free will discussion 452,637

[Trevor]

It takes much more "conjecture" to say Adam did not!

The point is Curtis it is still conjecture, it is not written.

 

[Rockerduck]

Hello Trevor,
" Rockerduck, God is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent, so he had to have known, before the creation of the world, that if he put Adam, Eve, the forbidden fruit and the serpent in the garden, what the outcome would be. And so he must have intended the outcome, otherwise he would not be the infallible God we know him to be."

You are trying to think on the wrong level. You cannot reason on God's level.

Isaiah 55:9 - For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

We are incapable of understanding God's ways.

Proverb 3:5 - Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

 

[B-A-C]

Rockerduck, God is omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent, so he had to have known, before the creation of the world, that if he put Adam, Eve, the forbidden fruit and the serpent in the garden, what the outcome would be. And so he must have intended the outcome, otherwise he would not be the infallible God we know him to be

Knowing the future, is quite different from directing it. Nothing surprises God, He already had a plan. But was it His will that Adam sin? If so, why would He have told him not to?

 

[Samson2020]

Knowing the future, is quite different from directing it. Nothing surprises God, He already had a plan. But was it His will that Adam sin? If so, why would He have told him not to?

If he didn't tell him to not eat of it, and he did, then it wouldn't have been disobedience and the curses would not have been instituted.

 

[B-A-C]

rec·on·cile
/ˈrekənˌsīl/
Learn to pronounce

verb

1. restore friendly relations between.
   "she wanted to be reconciled with her father"
   • cause to coexist in harmony; make or show to be compatible.
     "a landscape in which inner and outer vision were reconciled"
     
     Similar:
     make compatible
     harmonize
     square
     make harmonious
     synthesize
     make congruent
     cause to be in agreement
     adjust
     balance
     attune
     syncretize
     
     
   • make (one account) consistent with another, especially by allowing for transactions begun but not yet completed.
     "it is not necessary to reconcile the cost accounts to the financial accounts"

A lot of people take just the first meaning of this word, and think it's all about restoring relationships or coexisting in harmony.
But the Bible uses this work in both meanings above depending on the context.

reconcile the accounts. This is what the bank calls balancing out your account. Reconciling, where are you under and where are you over. (Most of us are rarely over).
In the definition above. It also says "make congruent", "adjust", "cause to be in agreement", "balance"... make "square", make "even", attune.
In fact there are many more words along these lines that make up the definition of reconcile.

Merriam-Webster is similar

Definition of RECONCILE

to restore to friendship or harmony; to come to an agreement on or an answer or solution to (something) : settle, resolve; to make consistent or congruous… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

reconcile
verb
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rec·on·cile | \ ˈre-kən-ˌsī(-ə)l \
reconciled; reconciling
Definition of reconcile

transitive verb
1a: to restore to friendship or harmonyreconciled the factions
b: SETTLE, RESOLVEreconcile differences
2: to make consistent or congruousreconcile an ideal with reality
3: to cause to submit to or accept something unpleasant was reconciled to hardship
4a: to check (a financial account) against another for accuracy
b: to account for
intransitive verb
: to become reconciled

To settle up, to resolve, to make consistent, to submit to something unpleasant, to account for...

One day all of creation will be reconciled to God. This doesn't mean all of creation will be friends with God or coexist with Him in harmony.
This means the balances will be called due. The accounts will be balanced. The debts "WILL" be paid.

Now there are two ways these debts can be paid... through acceptance, obedience, and subjection to Jesus.

...or...

Through eternal judgment, damnation and hell fire.

The choice is up to us... but one day... one way or another another.... everything will be reconciled.

 

[B-A-C]

If he didn't tell him to not eat of it, and he did, then it wouldn't have been disobedience and the curses would not have been instituted.

Exactly, but it happened, and that would be another thread that has nothing to do with free-will.

 

[Samson2020]

The choice is up to us... but one day... one way or another another.... everything will be reconciled.

Ephesians 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh ALL THINGS according to
the counsel of HIS OWN WILL."

NLT "Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out
according to HIS PLAN.


So my only question is do you really believe that your will (choice) supercedes Gods plans for you in light of above scripture?

 

[B-A-C]

Ephesians 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh ALL THINGS according to
the counsel of HIS OWN WILL."

NLT "Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out
according to HIS PLAN.

So my only question is do you really believe that your will (choice) supercedes Gods plans for you in light of above scripture?

I've given several answers to your "reconciliation" question. You haven't given me any rebuttal about the verses that people and Satan will end up in the Lake of fire.
I've "reconciled" my answer to you. Can you do the same with the verses I gave you about fire and brimstone?

God's plan is that everything will be restored to the way it was before the rebellion. If that means there will be some collateral damage along the way, I believe God
is OK with that. It's not what He wants, but He knows it will happen.

So to answer your question "So my only question is do you really believe that your will (choice) supercedes Gods plans for you in light of above scripture?"

I'll try to use a metaphor here to simplify things, hopefully this will work out.
God's plan is to build a building (kingdom if you like). The building is going to get built one way or another, whether anyone likes it or not... it's going to happen.
That's the plan, that's the end goal.

Now I would like humans to help me build this building. If they do, that's great, I will reward them (eternal life, salvation).
If they don't, that's fine too. I'm still God either way. If they choose not to, I will reward them in anther way (they won't like their prize).
But God wants His kingdom to be pure, holy, filled with people who chose to be there. He knows there will be a lot of these people, but He knows it won't be everyone.

God's "big plan", is bigger than His plan for me. He has a plan for me... it'll be a lot easier if I just do it.
Now I believe there are certain things God has declared will happen, and they will absolutely happen and nothing can change that.

But I also believe there are some things God allows to happen. Every time sin happens, it's because God "allows" it. He allows it so He can see the state of your
heart. I believe He already knows our heart, but this life, the trials we go through reveal our heart... to us and those around us, even more than it reveals anything to Him.

Perhaps there will be a giant video screen in heaven, and our lives will be played out before all the saints in heaven. But video screen or not, God knows everything we've ever done.
Good and bad. The bad stuff can be removed, erased, washed by the blood, forgotten.... but only for those who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.
For everyone else... the bad stuff is still there.

Now you appear to believe in Universalism... which is rare for those don't believe in free-will. Because they believe it doesn't matter what you choose, you will still go to heaven.
But you mentioned God's plan. Lets say there is no free-will for sake of argument here.
That means Judas had no say in betraying Jesus, Satan had no say in tempting Adam and Eve, and you have no say in the sins you commit from time to time.
Fine... then it must be "God's plan" for all of you to go to hell. .. and "your choice will not supercede God's plan" as I believe you put it.
For God clearly states Satan and his followers "WILL" go to the lake of fire. So it must be His will. That must have been His plan for you all along.

 

[Samson2020]

But I also believe there are some things God allows to happen

In light of the scripture I quoted, and your response is that "God allows sin to happen" shows that we are extremely far apart.
Judas had no choice for the scripture must be fulfilled and it was by using Judas to do it. John 17:12 ..........but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus had to be crucified and the Scribes and Pharisees along with the Romans were used to accomplish that. They murdered Jesus and that was the plan of God.
He didn't allow it, he orchestrated it through those mentioned above, namely Satan, and even foretold it. Jesus knew whose will he was accomplishing by his
sacrifice, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't blaming anybody for what his Father wanted him to do. He knew that no man or anything else could have power over
him unless it were given to them by his Father.

We can let this go I suppose. I've noticed that no matter how much one writes there is never a change of mind on either part no matter what subject is discussed.
Seems most have their minds made up before ever showing up here.

And as far as the building goes if the LORD doesn't do the building then they who try to build, build in vain. Psa 127:1

Best regards in your continued search of the truth and the whole truth.

 

[Curtis]

1Ti 2:4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

The "many called" are all people. The "few chosen" are those who chose life over death!

 

[Brad Huber]

So my only question is do you really believe that your will (choice) supercedes Gods plans for you in light of above scripture?

Gods plans for us, includes us having choice, obviously, so we are still in His will in any case where we choose, although the results of those choices are of course either blessed or cursed.

 

[Samson2020]

Gods plans for us, includes us having choice, obviously, so we are still in His will in any case where we choose, although the results of those choices are of course either blessed or cursed.

That would imply that Gods sacrifice of his Son was not good enough to cover all sin. Not to mention one cannot make an informed decision without
all the facts. You didn't have all the facts when he chose to give you faith to believe then you began your education as to what God was doing. Still trying
to figure it out it would seem.
Did Paul believe before his conversion or was it because he was chosen? He got divine intervention in his life. Wheres the fairness in burning everybody in a place called
hell that didn't receive the same intervention when all the sin of the world was paid for by the blood of Jesus?

 

[Curtis]

Did Paul believe before his conversion or was it because he was chosen?

The Apostle Paul (Saul) heard the gospel from those who he arrested especially Stephen who he listened to before his stoning to death. (Acts 7: 58-59 )

 

[Curtis]

The Apostle Paul (Saul) heard the gospel from those who he arrested especially Stephen who he listened to before his stoning to death. (Acts 7: 58-59 )

Paul believed and was chosen. He was not chosen and then believe he believed and then was chosen.

 

[B-A-C]

That would imply that Gods sacrifice of his Son was not good enough to cover all sin.

It's not a question of it being "good enough". It's more who it was done for.

John 10:11; “I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.
John 10:15; even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

If you're not a sheep, Jesus didn't lay down His life for you.

 

[Samson2020]

"Behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the World." Not some of it, all of it.
"If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." Pretty sure this means everybody as we all are/were ungodly.
"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." We receive mercy when he gives us the faith to believe in what he has done for us.
"Who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." Suppose he will be satisfied with less than all?
"The crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; and ALL FLESH SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD."
"As in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE." As a condemned sinner you will die in the flesh, but the sacrifice of the Son will eventually bring
life to the spirit within all men.
"Yes, Adams one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christs one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone." NLT
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people." NIV
"Therefore as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men." ESV I do not see a choice here.
"But EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER, Christ the firstfruits, then they which are Christs at his coming." Then cometh the end when he shall have delivered up the kingdom...
There is information deliberately left out here that doesn't speak of the different dispensations of times. It is hidden manna reserved for an overcomer. Rev 2:17

If you're not a sheep, Jesus didn't lay down His life for you.

"Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time." After the dispensation of times this will be understood by all as all will be of the sheep.
"......Christ died for the ungodly." I'm sure this includes us both as well as the rest of mankind.

The Apostle Paul (Saul) heard the gospel from those who he arrested especially Stephen who he listened to before his stoning to death. (Acts 7: 58-59 )

Doesn't mean he believed for he was persecuting the church with zeal after the stoning of Stephen. He was still outside the grace of God until he
received the Holy Ghost, the divine intervention shut him up and blinded him but he did not taste of the goodness of God, paid for by Jesus, until
his baptism.

 

[Curtis]

"Behold the lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the World." Not some of it, all of it.
"If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
"For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly." Pretty sure this means everybody as we all are/were ungodly.
"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." We receive mercy when he gives us the faith to believe in what he has done for us.
"Who gave himself a ransom FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." Suppose he will be satisfied with less than all?
"The crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; and ALL FLESH SHALL SEE THE SALVATION OF GOD."
"As in Adam ALL DIE, even so in Christ shall ALL BE MADE ALIVE." As a condemned sinner you will die in the flesh, but the sacrifice of the Son will eventually bring
life to the spirit within all men.
"Yes, Adams one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christs one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone." NLT
"Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people." NIV
"Therefore as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men." ESV I do not see a choice here.
"But EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER, Christ the firstfruits, then they which are Christs at his coming." Then cometh the end when he shall have delivered up the kingdom...
There is information deliberately left out here that doesn't speak of the different dispensations of times. It is hidden manna reserved for an overcomer. Rev 2:17



"Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in due time." After the dispensation of times this will be understood by all as all will be of the sheep.
"......Christ died for the ungodly." I'm sure this includes us both as well as the rest of mankind.



Doesn't mean he believed for he was persecuting the church with zeal after the stoning of Stephen. He was still outside the grace of God until he
received the Holy Ghost, the divine intervention shut him up and blinded him but he did not taste of the goodness of God, paid for by Jesus, until
his baptism.

No man can be saved unless he wants to!

 

[Samson2020]

No man can be saved unless he wants to!

In that form of idolatry you have replaced God with yourself as of course you know better than he. We call that CARNALITY as the carnal mind cannot be subject
to the law of God for it believes it is God.

 

[B-A-C]

In that form of idolatry you have replaced God with yourself as of course you know better than he. We call that CARNALITY as the carnal mind cannot be subject
to the law of God for it believes it is God.

You still haven't addressed all those verses about people going to the lake of fire and brimstone. You just steamroll along as if they don't exist.
In order for a doctrine to be valid, it has to agree with all other scripture.

Some would take the fact "the carnal mind cannot be subject to God" as a clue that the carnal man cannot be subject to God. Therefore they are not saved.

How can we be subject to God... if we can't be subject to God?

 

[B-A-C]

"......Christ died for the ungodly." I'm sure this includes us both as well as the rest of mankind.

Romans 5:6; continues into Romans 6.

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection

Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?