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Free will discussion 452,637

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Loyal
I made up the number above, likely it is much higher. Whatever the number is... it has been talked about a lot.

Way back in Genesis, God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit. We all know what happened.

Gen 2:16; The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
Gen 2:17; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

So would God tell them not to do something that He really did want them to do? To me, that seems like that would make God a lying hypocrite.

The Bible says God desires "all" men to be saved.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

So God doesn't want anyone to go to hell... but yet Jesus said...

Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.


Jesus said the majority "won't" be saved. So either God or Jesus must have been lying... or men have the free-will the choice to choose their own destiny.

Luke 13:23; And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,
Luke 13:24; "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

The Bible talks about "self-control". If God controlled everything we did, we would be puppets.. we would be God controlled.

1Cor 7:9; But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
1Cor 9:25; Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
Gal 5:23; gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
2Tim 3:3; unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
2Pet 1:6; and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,

Galatians 5 above says the fruit of the Spirit is "self-control".

... to be continued ...
 
Loyal
Joshua asked the Jews a question.

Josh 24:15; "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."
Josh 24:16; The people answered and said, "Far be it from us that we should forsake the LORD to serve other gods;

"choose for yourselves". It's our choice who we will serve. God, or the world (other gods).

Rev 3:20; 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

Jesus is knocking at the "door" of peoples hearts. He doesn't bust the door down. It's up to us to "choose" to open the door.

... to be continued ...
 
Loyal
Exod 7:13; Yet Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exod 7:14; Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is stubborn; he refuses to let the people go.
Exod 7:22; But the magicians of Egypt did the same with their secret arts; and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exod 8:15; But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exod 8:19; Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.
Exod 8:32; But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go.
Exod 9:7; Pharaoh sent, and behold, there was not even one of the livestock of Israel dead. But the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go.

Seven times Pharaoh hardened his heart. Finally...

Exod 9:12; And the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the LORD had spoken to Moses.

... but that was only after Pharaoh had hardened his own heart many times before.

... to be continued ...
 
Active
Ephesians2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no man can boast. and then again, John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit - fruit that will last. Then we have to ask, did we choose to have our names written in the book of life? How could we, we weren't even there. Did Paul have freedom of choice when he lamented his inability to do good and cried out his wretchedness? It appears that those who seem fixated on us having freedom of choice could well be wrong, and if so, could be placing an unfair burden on those they are counselling to do so. I am posting this for the benefit of those who try to choose but find they fail.
 
Loyal
John 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit - fruit that will last.
Keep in mind, Jesus "chose" Judas.

did we choose to have our names written in the book of life? How could we, we weren't even there.
I don't have a problem with God knowing the future. But just because He "foreknew" what choices you would make, doesn't mean He made the choices for you.

Unitarlian-Universalists and Antimonians believe everyone's name is written in the book of life. (Trust me, I am neither!)
The Universalist believe everyone will go to heaven (or wherever saints go).
The Antimonianists believe everyone will go to heaven unless you specifically state you don't believe in Jesus... at that time your name is erased.

I don't believe either of those things... but there are several verses that say our names can be erased.

Heb 11:6; And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.
 
Active
Keep in mind, Jesus "chose" Judas.



I don't have a problem with God knowing the future. But just because He "foreknew" what choices you would make, doesn't mean He made the choices for you.

Unitarlian-Universalists and Antimonians believe everyone's name is written in the book of life. (Trust me, I am neither!)
The Universalist believe everyone will go to heaven (or wherever saints go).
The Antimonianists believe everyone will go to heaven unless you specifically state you don't believe in Jesus... at that time your name is erased.

I don't believe either of those things... but there are several verses that say our names can be erased.
I believe Jesus knew about the character of Judas when he accepted him, but someone had to do the job and betray Jesus, I have yet to come to an understanding about the betrayal of Jesus or the need for it, I pray that the Lord will open my eyes to understand. As for the universalists and the antimonianists, whoever they are, I am content to believe in the written word, and that speaks about sheep and goats, also my own experience is similar to Paul's 'what a wretched man I am, who will rescue me from this body of death' I don't understand why God chooses who he does. With my track record, I am amazed that he would choose me.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
It is possible, it was possible, it actually is! God knows all things, he knows who will come to Him through Jesus and who will not. The person/people have a free will choice to accept Jesus or reject Him, God does not control this but knows who will accept and who will reject.

In a worldly way it is like saying, I gave him enough rope to hang himself. The outcome was inevitable, the person made the choice.

There are only two options, one leads to life eternal , the other leads to eternal damnation. No one controls who chooses what, it is their choice,...

John 3:18-21 (NKJV)
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

Men loved darkness, they couldn't see the light if it was in front of them, they hide from the light because it will reveal their sins, they do not believe they are sinners.
 
Active
I made up the number above, likely it is much higher. Whatever the number is... it has been talked about a lot.

Way back in Genesis, God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit. We all know what happened.

Gen 2:16; The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely;
Gen 2:17; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

So would God tell them not to do something that He really did want them to do? To me, that seems like that would make God a lying hypocrite.

The Bible says God desires "all" men to be saved.

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

So God doesn't want anyone to go to hell... but yet Jesus said...

Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.


Jesus said the majority "won't" be saved. So either God or Jesus must have been lying... or men have the free-will the choice to choose their own destiny.

Luke 13:23; And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,
Luke 13:24; "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

The Bible talks about "self-control". If God controlled everything we did, we would be puppets.. we would be God controlled.

1Cor 7:9; But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
1Cor 9:25; Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
Gal 5:23; gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
2Tim 3:3; unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
2Pet 1:6; and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,

Galatians 5 above says the fruit of the Spirit is "self-control".

... to be continued ...
I will look at the part when man was perfect and there was no sin but the world was in perfection not a spot or wrinkle. And said, that God told Adam, "the day you eat". Genesis 2:17. I do think the "language syntax" is saying God is letting Adam know "The very day you eat" this is going to happen. In a sense, letting him know he was going to eat from that tree.

Now we know God does not lie! That is establish! Since God Does not lie, Adam died! And I believe it. Now if they died, in a sense, we are walking breathing dead people, born from the womb of our walking breathing dead mother, The dead giving birth to a dead being. "After its own kind"! But you may say, "PloughBoy" I don't understand, how can that be, or I cannot understand that. And I would say, you are not supposed to understand that, how can a person understand anything, if they are dead! "We walk by faith and not by sight". If God said he was going to die, he died. "lean not upon your own understanding but trust in [the word of God] with all your heart, mind, and strength". If God said he was going to die he died! And I am a big enough a fool to believe it! My main objective is to Trust Him! And I cannot be move!

New International Version
Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

And Jesus does not lie!

You see, if we do not get the first part right. The whole discussion crumbles, then. We place error on top of errors. And we will never come to the truth! But a bunch of "speculations" in which leaves me with a feeling of "discontent"! "For a little leaven, leavens the whole lump"! For we are seeking "the Truth". That leaves no room for speculations! God does not pour out Joy in "Speculations" but pours it out in "Truth" as we are leaning . When I learn or talk about Jesus, I like the joy of the Holy Spirit is flowing, it does not flow in speculations, there is no joy of the Lord in assumptions. We are not the children of the World We are the children of God! Feeding on the word of God and fellowship of the saints is different than doing evangelistic work! It is not the same! We feed, they hear. LOL. I just cannot get the joy building errors on top of errors, I cannot "grieve" the "Holy Spirit"! When I talk or write I love the joy of the Holy Ghost moving in me. No joy I do not speak or write! Yes! Hallelujah!!!!!! I love it!!!
 
Active
I have yet to come to an understanding about the betrayal of Jesus or the need for it, I pray that the Lord will open my eyes to understand.
It's quite remarkable actually. The betrayal eventually left Jesus completely alone, as he had already had the sin of the world placed upon him and was destined by
his Father to be the sacrificial lamb even God withdrew from him.
It was through betrayal, and being alone that he was perfected, as in the face of being betrayed and being alone, along with a carnal mind that suddenly he didn't want to
be crucified, but minutes earlier had rebuked Peter for even suggesting that he not let it happen, that he gave over his will completely and did the will of the Father which involved forgiving all who betrayed and forsook him in his time of need, and eventually those that had scourged and crucified him.

Heres a list of why he had to die:

1) To complete his own maturity.
A) To gain the knowledge of sin
B) Jesus learned obedience
C) Jesus became agape-love
D) Jesus secured his resurrection
E) Jesus perfected his divine right to rule
F) Jesus became an overcomer

2) For the remission of sin.
3) So that Israel could remarry.
4) To fulfill the Old testament and establish a new Covenant/testament
5) To establish a new priesthood.
6) To give you spiritual life.

All the promises of God were to come through Jesus Christ (The one seed) and as such he needed to be fully perfected in order to become what he is today.
The new High Priest
The King of kings
The Lord of lords
A life giving Spirit

Hope this helps. There are chapters that could be written over each subject.

I don't have a problem with God knowing the future. But just because He "foreknew" what choices you would make, doesn't mean He made the choices for you.
Only one problem with that theory is that he is the one who condemned all men because of what Adam did. You had no choice in the condemnation and participated
in it probably happily like the rest of us blind folk.
The straight and narrow gate that leads unto life is Jesus Christ himself, but no man can come to him unless the Father draw him. So in this scenario it is the
Father who elects who will come to Jesus and then Jesus decides who will come to know the Father, "and this is life eternal to know the only true God, and
Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent."
In that scenario the whole salvation process rests in Gods hands who shows mercy to whom he will and hardens whom he will.

Also concerning the fall PB noted that "in the day ye eat thereof ye shall surely die" it's a tell that God knew they would fail when tempted to eat of the tree,
it was as necessary for them to fail as it was for Jesus to be crucified. Consider if they had not failed, what then? Would there have been a Cain or an Abel?
Or would God just wind up with 2 un-born again humans that lived forever? This option was clearly not his will, as he wants many sons to bring him even
more glory, thus the number of humans increased to an astronomical level for just that, bringing God glory.

Last thing. Do you think that Adam and Eve knew what it meant to die before partaking of the fruit?
 
Loyal
John 6:44; "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Another verse that a lot of theology has been built around.

It says no one "can" come to Me. But some churches change this to "absolutely will no matter what" come to Me.

Just because Jesus gives the invitation doesn't mean everyone will accept it. We have the power to refuse. God doesn't force anyone to be saved.
No... let me retract that. In some special cases, God has a plan for people. John the Baptist was born with the Holy Spirit "from his mother's womb".
So I won't say never... but I still say for the vast majority.... Jesus is calling... Jesus is knocking.

Rev 3:20; 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

But just because Jesus is drawing near... just because Jesus is knocking... doesn't mean you have to open the door. Some people refuse.

Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.

Just because Jesus gives people a chance, doesn't mean they all will take the chance. It doesn't say "God does not them to repent"... it says she "does not want to repent". It was their choice not to repent.

Luke 13:6; And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"


Just because Jesus waters, fertilzes, and aereates you doesn't guarantee you will bear fruit. Some trees simply refuse to bear fruit. It isn't because Jesus wasn't helping them, they just refuse.

Matt 23:37; "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Jesus wanted the Jews in Jerusalem to accept Him. Since He is God, He could have forced them to. But no where in the Bible does it say God forces anyone to be saved.
Jesus drew near to the Jews, He wanted them to come to Him... but they were "unwilling". Just because Jesus draws near, just because He extends the invitation doesn't mean everyone will accept it.

Acts 7:51; "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

We have the power to resist the Holy Spirit. In fact everytime we sin we are resisting the Holy Spirit. When it comes to accepting Jesus... some people resist the Holy Spirit.

.....

Some of what I am saying here is like a foreign language to people, even to some Christians. They have been so indoctrinated against free-will that this is inconceivable to them. They don't understand it.
There have been a lot of threads about predestination, free-will, OSAS, and things like this lately. They all kind of tie together. If you believe in one part of it ... you almost "have" to believe in all of it.

They believe God "predestinated" certain people to be saved, and those people will be saved no matter what. (I could agree to this in a few specific cases, but not for everyone)
They believe these people have no free-will to accept or reject Jesus. God decided long before they were born they would accept Him.
Now since, you have no free-will, you have no say in whether you will be saved or not. Since you have no say in it... you cannot possibly lose your salvation.

The two biggest verses that go against this are....

1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

It seems God wants everyone to be saved. He doesn't want any to go to hell. If God is love, He wouldn't want those He loves to go to ever-lasting punishment.
So then why does the Bible say the majority of people wont be saved?

Because it's their choice not to be.

Jesus has drawn near to them many times. He has knocked on the door many times. He has given them chances over and over... but they do not want to repent.
Keep your Jesus to yourself, I don't want to hear about it. Keep your Bible and your church to yourself, I don't want to know about it.

It isn't because Jesus didn't offer.
 
Active
Just because Jesus gives the invitation doesn't mean everyone will accept it. We have the power to refuse. God doesn't force anyone to be saved.
No... let me retract that. In some special cases, God has a plan for people. John the Baptist was born with the Holy Spirit "from his mother's womb".
So I won't say never... but I still say for the vast majority.... Jesus is calling... Jesus is knocking.
Eph 1:9 :"Having made known unto us what is the mystery of HIS WILL, according to HIS GOOD PLEASURE which HE HATH PURPOSED IN HIMSELF."

So God only has plans for some? And you can override his decisions?

Romans 9:19 "Thou wilt say then unto me, why doth he yet find fault? FOR WHO HATH RESISTED HIS WILL?"

The Fathers plan involves everything including everyone, it's just more obvious in some than others, some have big parts to play others are behind the scenes.
The moon and the sun do his bidding as the rains and the snow the same, but you who can control none of those things are gonna tell God he can't have what
he crucified his Son to accomplish?
Good luck with that one.
 
Loyal
There is a famous old poem.

There is a line in the poem... it says..

If you love someone... set them. If they come back, they are yours. If they don't... they never were.

God could force us all to be robots, He could make all our decisions for us. But this isn't God's nature. God is love.

Love doesn't seek it's own way (1 Cor 13:5; )

God wants us to choose Him, He doesn't want to force us to. Now He may use circumstances to steer and persuade us, but in the end, He doesn't force us.
 
Loyal
Top Poster Of Month
God could force us all to be robots, He could make all our decisions for us. But this isn't God's nature. God is love.

That is the point brother, God is in control of all things, he knows all things, but he didn't create man to be a robot. We see this right at he start in the Garden of Eden.

He gives us all the Free Gift of salvation, we just have to decide whether we take it or not. The choice is ours John3:18-21

Adam with Eve were told not to eat from the tree in the middle of the garden, as we know they did. The choice was follow God or die, salvation is a similar offer on another plate, follow Jesus or die.
 
Active
I will look at the part when man was perfect and there was no sin but the world was in perfection not a spot or wrinkle. And said, that God told Adam, "the day you eat". Genesis 2:17. I do think the "language syntax" is saying God is letting Adam know "The very day you eat" this is going to happen. In a sense, letting him know he was going to eat from that tree.

Now we know God does not lie! That is establish! Since God Does not lie, Adam died! And I believe it. Now if they died, in a sense, we are walking breathing dead people, born from the womb of our walking breathing dead mother, The dead giving birth to a dead being. "After its own kind"! But you may say, "PloughBoy" I don't understand, how can that be, or I cannot understand that. And I would say, you are not supposed to understand that, how can a person understand anything, if they are dead! "We walk by faith and not by sight". If God said he was going to die, he died. "lean not upon your own understanding but trust in [the word of God] with all your heart, mind, and strength". If God said he was going to die he died! And I am a big enough a fool to believe it! My main objective is to Trust Him! And I cannot be move!

New International Version
Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God."

And Jesus does not lie!

You see, if we do not get the first part right. The whole discussion crumbles, then. We place error on top of errors. And we will never come to the truth! But a bunch of "speculations" in which leaves me with a feeling of "discontent"! "For a little leaven, leavens the whole lump"! For we are seeking "the Truth". That leaves no room for speculations! God does not pour out Joy in "Speculations" but pours it out in "Truth" as we are leaning . When I learn or talk about Jesus, I like the joy of the Holy Spirit is flowing, it does not flow in speculations, there is no joy of the Lord in assumptions. We are not the children of the World We are the children of God! Feeding on the word of God and fellowship of the saints is different than doing evangelistic work! It is not the same! We feed, they hear. LOL. I just cannot get the joy building errors on top of errors, I cannot "grieve" the "Holy Spirit"! When I talk or write I love the joy of the Holy Ghost moving in me. No joy I do not speak or write! Yes! Hallelujah!!!!!! I love it!!!
PloughBoy, Let me offer another understanding of that passage. God told Adam that in the day he ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil he would die. He did. The ancient Jewish and early Christian understanding of this involves God's prophetic day. David wrote,

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. 1(Ps. 90:4 KJV)

Here David indicates that a day to the Lord is as a thousand years. Peter too, eludes to this.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (2 Pet. 3:8 KJV)


Adam lived 930 years, just short of one day

Here is the Jewish belief from the book of Jubilees.

29. And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth year thereof, Adam died, and all
his sons buried him in the land of his creation, 8 and he was the first to be buried 9 in the earth. 30. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye will die." 1 For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.


Here is the early Christian understanding. Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 23.

2. Thus, then, in the day that they did eat, in the same did they die, and became death’s debtors, since it was one day of the creation. For it is said, “There was made in the evening, and there was made in the morning, one day.” Now in this same day that they did eat, in that also did they die. But according to the cycle and progress of the days, after which one is termed first, another second, and another third, if anybody seeks diligently to learn upon what day out of the seven it was that Adam died, he will find it by examining the dispensation of the Lord. For by summing up in Himself the whole human race from the beginning to the end, He has also summed up its death. From this it is clear that the Lord suffered death, in obedience to His Father, upon that day on which Adam died while he disobeyed God. Now he died on the same day in which he did eat. For God said, “In that day on which ye shall eat of it, ye shall die by death.” The Lord, therefore, recapitulating in Himself this day, underwent His sufferings upon the day preceding the Sabbath, that is, the sixth day of the creation, on which day man was created; thus granting him a second creation by means of His passion, which is that [creation] out of death. And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since “a day of the Lord is as a thousand years,” he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin. Whether, therefore, with respect to disobedience, which is death; whether [we consider] that, on account of that, they were delivered over to death, and made debtors to it; whether with respect to [the fact that on] one and the same day on which they ate they also died (for it is one day of the creation); whether [we regard this point], that, with respect to this cycle of days, they died on the day in which they did also eat, that is, the day of the preparation, which is termed “the pure supper,” that is, the sixth day of the feast, which the Lord also exhibited when He suffered on that day; or whether [we reflect] that he (Adam) did not overstep the thousand years, but died within their limit, — it follows that, in regard to all these significations, God is indeed true. For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: “For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him.”[6]
Early Church Fathers - – Ante-Nicene Fathers: The Writings of the Fathers Down To A.D. 325.
 
Active
Good research, and your approach to me concerning was excellent as well. A little clip at the end of your post, I think should have been added for those who reading it, and I know you would agree. Now this is not taking away but adding as well, putting in your own words. I will give a example:

[David is using what we call a "simile" and not a "metaphor" by using this term; "1 day is like a thousand days, thousand years is like 1 day, unto the LORD". He is using "simile" to show the greatness and the "infinity" of God. The number a thousand years as one day, that David is using, is the equivalent to " a billion years is as one day and one day as a billion years unto our God. That is what the term means from the lips of David. It describes His "infinity"!

A Paraphase to describe (GNB).
(2 Peter 3).
7But the heavens and the earth that now exist are being preserved by the same command of God, in order to be destroyed by fire. They are being kept for the day when godless people will be judged and destroyed.

8 But do not forget one thing, my dear friends! There is no difference in the Lord's sight between one day and a thousand years; to him the two are the same. 9The Lord is not slow to do what he has promised, as some think. Instead, he is patient with you, because he does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants all to turn away from their sins.

Here is another critique non harmful.

And I do believe you are from the "Protestant Faith" so in essence, when we view "non-canonical" books, we view them as not the "Words of God" nor are they reliable as "Truth". That is one of the reason we are "Protestants" "The Pseudographical" books are not the word of God. Nor do we affirm "The Apocryphal" as "Canon of Scripture". But we do recognize the Jewish historian "Flavius Josephus".

Still I will say, your research was good and your introduction most excellent in your approach.

P.S. At 1st I did not want to address it, I thought I would just leave it, it was not harmful in any case, last night. And thought about it this morning, I still was going to just leave the comment alone. Forgot about it. When I took a shower it came to mind again. I said again that I would leave it alone. The a brewed a cup of "Columbia" and toasted 2 pieces of buns" and set down, It came up again, my reply to myself, was it will be to "Taxing"! Then the things that I had learn through out the collect years started to come to light, and my "Lord " came to mind. And the "Taxing left".

Well done in your research, "Butch5"
 
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Good research, and your approach to me concerning was excellent as well. A little clip at the end of your post, I think should have been added for those who reading it, and I know you would agree. Now this is not taking away but adding as well, putting in your own words. I will give a example:

[David is using what we call a "simile" and not a "metaphor" by using this term; "1 day is like a thousand days, thousand years is like 1 day, unto the LORD". He is using "simile" to show the greatness and the "infinity" of God. The number a thousand years as one day, that David is using, is the equivalent to " a billion years is as one day and one day as a billion years unto our God. That is what the term means from the lips of David. It describes His "infinity"!

A Paraphase to describe (GNB).
(2 Peter 3).
7But the heavens and the earth that now exist are being preserved by the same command of God, in order to be destroyed by fire. They are being kept for the day when godless people will be judged and destroyed.

8 But do not forget one thing, my dear friends! There is no difference in the Lord's sight between one day and a thousand years; to him the two are the same. 9The Lord is not slow to do what he has promised, as some think. Instead, he is patient with you, because he does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants all to turn away from their sins.

Here is another critique non harmful.

And I do believe you are from the "Protestant Faith" so in essence, when we view "non-canonical" books, we view them as not the "Words of God" nor are they reliable as "Truth". That is one of the reason we are "Protestants" "The Pseudographical" books are not the word of God. Nor do we affirm "The Apocryphal" as "Canon of Scripture". But we do recognize the Jewish historian "Flavius Josephus".

Still I will say, your research was good and your introduction most excellent in your approach.

P.S. At 1st I did not want to address it, I thought I would just leave it, it was not harmful in any case, last night. And thought about it this morning, I still was going to just leave the comment alone. Forgot about it. When I took a shower it came to mind again. I said again that I would leave it alone. The a brewed a cup of "Columbia" and toasted 2 pieces of buns" and set down, It came up again, my reply to myself, was it will be to "Taxing"! Then the things that I had learn through out the collect years started to come to light, and my "Lord " came to mind. And the "Taxing left".

Well done in your research, "Butch5"
Thanks, I found it useful in understanding God's words to Adam. For a long time I didn't really understand that passage. Many say Adam died spiritually, but I don't see any evidence for that. However, this prophetic day/year fits the Scriptures and it explains that passage nicely.
 
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Freedom of choice!!!
NIV Genesis 2:17 "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for 'when' you eat from it you will certainly die".
I would have thought that if Adam had freedom of choice the scripture would read 'If' you eat from it, rather than 'when' you eat from it, don't you think?
 
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God's will is the only will. You are either rebellious to God's will or in His will.
That's a bit harsh on Adam and Eve, don't you think Rockerduck? God creates a garden, puts forbidden fruit in it, plus a lying serpent, intent on turning Adam and Eve, two people who had never heard a lie, against God, who himself virtually tells Adam he is going to sin, by saying when you eat, instead of, if you eat. I don't think things are quite as cut and dried as you tend to make out bro.
 
Member
Hello Trevor,
" That's a bit harsh on Adam and Eve, don't you think Rockerduck?"

Adam and Eve ignored God's command (will) not to eat of the Tree and then fell for the devils trap and rebelled against God's (will)command and suffered the consequence. That can happen to you today, Stay in God's will and don't rebel against it..
 
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