Faith comes by Hearing, but Obedience comes by Fear!

[jiggyfly]

How could it be my opinion when I used scriptures that say what it says, maybe its something you don't understand, and you feels like you can't ask a question.

Go back and reread it was your conclusion that was in conflict with the scripture I posted. Try keeping the scriptures within the context they were written, use other scriptures dealing with the same subject matter and see if your conclusion doesn't change.:wink:

 

[Brother Mike]

The Issue Is.....................

Jiggyfly:

Go back and reread it was your conclusion that was in conflict with the scripture I posted. Try keeping the scriptures within the context they were written, use other scriptures dealing with the same subject matter and see if your conclusion doesn't change.:wink:

We hear so many things in our Churches today. I am not saying they are bad Churches, but what we hear are idea's, and belief's passed down and preached upon, but bless God if you can find scripture to support it.

God is a refining fire that burns dross out of your life!!! Heard that sermon more than once, and never had the heart to tell the Pastor that the Dross mentioned in the bible, died horrible ways, being witches, and abdominal things.

We are born in sin, and satanic nature, the devil is our father.
I heard this a whole lot, but we never where born in the Angel class, no scripture that says we are born in sin, or that we have a satanic nature. We are servants to whom we obey!!

So, you come on Talk Jesus, and as I know way to often, what I believed, I can't even support. Talk Jesus can give us tremendous growth if we allow the Word of the Lord, and Holy Spirit teach us.

Welcome to the big leagues.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[bro.tan]

I never said they told Jesus anything, I said the accused him. Does one need to be present to be accused?

[/COLOR]

I will pretend I did not read this.




Do you know what Righteous even means?

If righteous or unrighteous has anything to do with sin, then are you saying Salvation is by works?

To believe something you need scripture, Man was born in sin, Man has a satanic nature, anything. Just the scripture please.

Jesus Is Lord.

I'm done with this circus between you and I. Until you grant my request.

 

[bro.tan]

Go back and reread it was your conclusion that was in conflict with the scripture I posted. Try keeping the scriptures within the context they were written, use other scriptures dealing with the same subject matter and see if your conclusion doesn't change.:wink:

The thing is I don't see a problem with what Paul said, that you quoted, and what I quote before. You tell me what you see that is a problem. You can't just quoted a chapter and run, break it down, whats the problem, whats my opinion. You tell me what you think Paul is saying, with scriptures and proof, its not for me to guest whats in your mind.

 

[bro.tan]

Satan had caused the second commandment to be ripped out. But he wasn't finished. The leaders changed the fourth one also!

The change of the fourth commandment was attempted gradually over a period of time so as not to arouse anyone. But the change is a masterpiece of Satan's work.
Get ready for a shock.

The following mind-boggling statements were made by church authorities and are documented.

"Question - Have you any other way of proving that the church (Roman Catholic) has power to institute festivals of precept?

"Answer - Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her - she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no scriptural authority." <CITE>A Doctrinal Catechism.</CITE> by Stephen Keenan,pg. 174.
That's incredible!

"The Catholic church," declared Cardinal Gibbons, "by virtue of her divine mission changed the day from Saturday to Sunday." Again the question is asked to them:

Question - Which is the Sabbath day?


"Answer - Saturday is the Sabbath day.

"Question - Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?

"Answer - We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the
Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 364), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday." <CITE>The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine,</CITE> pg. 50, 3rd ed.

What does the fourth commandment actually say? Here it is
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it." Exodus 20:8-11.

Do church authorities acknowledge that there is no command in the Bible for the sanctification of Sunday?
They do! Look at this


The Catholic Cardinal Gibbons, in <CITE>Faith of Our Fathers.</CITE> pg. 111, said, "You may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."

You see, in the Council of Trent (1545 A.D.), the church leaders ruled that "tradition" is of as great authority as the Bible! They believed that God had given them the authority to change the Bible any way they pleased. By "tradition" they meant human teachings.

Jesus said, "But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." Matthew 15:9.
Just as they had brought images into the church to make it easier for the pagans to come in, they changed the Sabbath of the Bible for the same reason.

Sunday doctrine, Sun-Worship. Easter-Pagan (coming up)...These things are not of Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost...Paul said in Romans 6:16 - Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, orof obedience unto righteousness?

The Lord (jesus christ) said the seventh day of the week...Seventh day

 

[SpiritLedEd]

To believe something you need scripture, Man was born in sin, Man has a satanic nature, anything. Just the scripture please.

This verse popped into my mind when I read this: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Ps 51:5)

SLE

 

[jari]

Hi SpiritLedEd

This verse popped into my mind when I read this: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Ps 51:5)

SLE

i dont think thats very good translation, heres better one:


(Psa 51:5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

i doupt david meant original sin but sinfulness of his mother as in sinfulness of humans in general.

iniquity = aw-vone', aw-vone'
From H5753; perversity, that is, (moral) evil: - fault, iniquity, mischief, punishment (of iniquity), sin.

sin = khate
From H2398; a crime or its penalty: - fault, X grievously, offence, (punishment of) sin.

 

[Brother Mike]

Pretty Good.

Thank you SpiritLedEd for sharing that scripture!!!

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
AMP
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in [a state of] iniquity; my mother was sinful who conceived me [and I too am sinful].(2)

GW
Psa 51:5 Indeed, I was born guilty. I was a sinner when my mother conceived me.

Depending on the translation, I would have never found this in the KJV.

If we read the right Translation, it's what we are looking for.
Sharp Eye SpiritLedEd!!!

Jesus Is Lord

 

[jiggyfly]

The thing is I don't see a problem with what Paul said, that you quoted, and what I quote before. You tell me what you see that is a problem. You can't just quoted a chapter and run, break it down, whats the problem, whats my opinion. You tell me what you think Paul is saying, with scriptures and proof, its not for me to guest whats in your mind.

Well BT, you seem to propagate one must keep the law of the old covenant in the majority of your posts here at TJ.
The scripture I posted, 2Cor. 3, Paul clearly states that the law engraved into stone was part of the old way (covenant) and that the old way has been replaced by the new way.

Now this is just a simple summary, but if you want we can go verse by verse and examine what is being said in this portion of scripture.:wink:

 

[jari]

(Psa 51:7) Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Jesus was tempted just as we are. there was no difference between Him and us.
He was human as well:

(Heb 4:15) For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities;
but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

 

[bro.tan]

This verse popped into my mind when I read this: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Ps 51:5)

SLE

I used the original KJV..I got this one ...Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

But, praise the lord for that scripture, its was good that it came from you and not me, even though understanding the word of God in the Bible from Genesis to revelation, one really should understand this without a clean cut scripture. Because, the story from Adam to Jesus; the prophets and the apostles told the story. The example I used before, the scripture you used was just as good, but those guys couldn't understand it and still haven't showed me one time in the Bible where someone was born righteous, except for using Jesus and Adam. But I understand why, because in the scriptures its written in Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.


Also in the scriptures its written in Proverb 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Even with a clean cut scripture, those guys will still stumble over being born in sin. You also have to have knowledge to go with that understanding. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. (Proverbs 1:7)




peace in Jesus name

 

[jari]

the word conceive means:

to become pregnant with (young) <conceive a child>
b : to cause to begin : originate <a project conceived by the company's founder>

obviously nothing to do with original sin.

shapen in iniquity also refers to growing in womb. this again has nothing to do with original sin.

it really should said behold i was born as sinfull. if it would mean that.
but it doesnt and the point is mankind has sin not that man gives birth to more sin (sinfull babies?)

i think you need to look defintion of sin. its transgression of God's law. when adam sinned that didnt mean humanity was somehow genetically mutated.

sin is always an action.

sin does not spread by touch like diseases it means action against God's law. In thought, will or action.

 

[bro.tan]

Before we go into recorded History, less understand somethings solomon wrote in Proverbs 1: 1 The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel; 2 To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding; 3 To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity; 4 To give subtilty to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion. 5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels: 6 To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction

Sunday doctrine do not teach the fear of the lord, brothers and sisters, so less learn from these recorded History lessons why. Now here’s your chance to come into the light. (1Peter:2:9) "that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light:" Open your eyes sisters and brothers and see. Let no man deceive you. (Rev12:9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Satan through man (Religious Teaching) has deceived the whole world.



The sun was the main god of the heathen even back as far as ancient Babylon. Since they worshiped the sun on Sunday, the compromising church leaders could see that if they changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, it would accomplish several things.

Number one - it would separate them from the Jews who were hated by many of the Romans and who, along with Jesus, (Luke 4:16), had been worshiping on Saturday from the beginning (and still do today). Number two - it would make it much easier for the pagans to come into the church if the Christians met on the same day that the pagan world did.
It worked well. Pagans flocked in by the thousands. Satan's plan of compromise was doing its baleful work. The change was attempted gradually but many of the true hearted, loyal Christians were alarmed. They came to the leaders and wanted to know why they had dared tamper with the law of Almighty God! The church leaders knew this would happen - and they had an answer ready. It's a masterpiece. If a person doesn't know the bible well it sounds good.
The people were told that they were worshiping on Sunday now because Jesus rose from the dead on that day.
There's not even one verse in the Bible that tells us to do this, but that's what they were told. Isn't it amazing! Maybe you've even heard that yourself!
When Emperor Constantine became a Christian, Christianity became the state religion you remember. As thousands of sun-worshipers flocked into the church, it wasn't long before they had a dominating influence. Most of his top officials had been sun-worshipers. Because the Roman government was getting shaky, Constantine consulted with his aides and with the church officials in Rome.


"What shall we do? How can we unite and stabilize the government?"
The counsel of the church leaders was timely.
"Pass a Sunday law. Force everyone to cease work and honor Sunday."

That was it! It would satisfy the sun-worshiping pagans, and unite pagans, Christians, and the Roman empire as never before.
The year is 321 A.D. Constantine, yielding to the suggestion of church leaders passes the first Sunday law! Here it is, straight out of the record:
"Let all the judges and town people, and the occupation of all trades rest on the venerable day of the sun" Edict of March 7, 321 A.D. <CITE>Corpus Juris Civilis Cod.</CITE>, lib. 3, tit. 12, Lex. 3.

 

[jari]

fear is beginning of wisdom but Love is part of faith in Christ.

(Gal 5:6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


.

 

[bro.tan]

Again many professing Christians are willing to acknowledge that the other nine commandments should be kept in some way today, but reject and refuse to literally obey just one commandment, the fourth! So we see that the Sabbath command is a crucial test of obedience, for it identifies those who have surrendered to God and are striving to obey all of His commandments. Jesus said in John 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Even others lacking knowledge will say that we keep the first day of the week because Christ rose on that day or that the apostle Paul broke bread on the first day. No, Christ did not rise on Sunday that is yet another doctrine of the devil and I can prove that out of your bible without a shadow of doubt. And every day that Paul ate he broke bread what does that have to do with the Sabbath day. And as much as people try and make it seem, Paul writings in no way contradicts any writing of Jesus or the other disciple or apostles. The Lord had Peter to warn you regarding some of the writing of Paul: (2Peter3:15-16) (v.15) "even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;" (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. You need to have some pretty good understanding of the entire bible when you start to deal with Paul’s writing or you could get tied in knots. People are always saying "but Paul said" well Paul said this to: (1Cor.1:13) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? If you are confused regarding a subject in the bible go and see what your Master has to say about the matter, before running to Paul or the others apostles.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Again many professing Christians are willing to acknowledge that the other nine commandments should be kept in some way today, but reject and refuse to literally obey just one commandment, the fourth! So we see that the Sabbath command is a crucial test of obedience, for it identifies those who have surrendered to God and are striving to obey all of His commandments. Jesus said in John 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Even others lacking knowledge will say that we keep the first day of the week because Christ rose on that day or that the apostle Paul broke bread on the first day. No, Christ did not rise on Sunday that is yet another doctrine of the devil and I can prove that out of your bible without a shadow of doubt. And every day that Paul ate he broke bread what does that have to do with the Sabbath day. And as much as people try and make it seem, Paul writings in no way contradicts any writing of Jesus or the other disciple or apostles. The Lord had Peter to warn you regarding some of the writing of Paul: (2Peter3:15-16) (v.15) "even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;" (v.16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. You need to have some pretty good understanding of the entire bible when you start to deal with Paul’s writing or you could get tied in knots. People are always saying "but Paul said" well Paul said this to: (1Cor.1:13) Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? If you are confused regarding a subject in the bible go and see what your Master has to say about the matter, before running to Paul or the others apostles.

Bro Tan
I'm wondering why you are trying to force others to fit into your leglalistic way of seeing (doing?) things

JESUS said we are to obey these two laws only.

Matthew 22:37-40 (King James Version)


<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-23910">37</sup>Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-23911">38</sup>This is the first and great commandment.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-23912">39</sup>And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-23913">40</sup>On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


All the law of the Old Covenant including the ten commandments are hinged on these two. If you live these two laws then you fulfill all the rest by default. And truthfully its enough work to live these two.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

Faith Works by LOVE

If we cannot live by the two laws above our faith cannot work.
That is simply because faith worketh by LOVE

 

[Brother Mike]

The bible.

bro.tan

But, praise the lord for that scripture, its was good that it came from you and not me, even though understanding the word of God in the Bible from Genesis to revelation, one really should understand this without a clean cut scripture.

Are you saying you have full complete knowledge of the bible?

Are you saying we don't really need clear meaning with clear scripture to make biblical facts?

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. (Proverbs 1:7)

This scripture seems to be off topic, could you explain why you included it?

Again many professing Christians are willing to acknowledge that the other nine commandments should be kept in some way today, but reject and refuse to literally obey just one commandment, the fourth! So we see that the Sabbath command is a crucial test of obedience, for it identifies those who have surrendered to God and are striving to obey all of His commandments. Jesus said in John 14:15If ye love me, keep my commandments.


Even others lacking knowledge will say that we keep the first day of the week because Christ rose on that day or that the apostle Paul broke bread on the first day. No, Christ did not rise on Sunday that is yet another doctrine of the devil

Are you saying those that try to obey this commandment, if they use Sunday, they are following Doctrines of Devils?


I expect all these questions answered.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[bro.tan]

Bro Tan
I'm wondering why you are trying to force others to fit into your leglalistic way of seeing (doing?) things

JESUS said we are to obey these two laws only.

Matthew 22:37-40 (King James Version)


<SUP id=en-KJV-23910 class=versenum>37</SUP>Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
<SUP id=en-KJV-23911 class=versenum>38</SUP>This is the first and great commandment.
<SUP id=en-KJV-23912 class=versenum>39</SUP>And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
<SUP id=en-KJV-23913 class=versenum>40</SUP>On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


All the law of the Old Covenant including the ten commandments are hinged on these two. If you live these two laws then you fulfill all the rest by default. And truthfully its enough work to live these two.

I understand what you are trying to say, but Jesus didn't tell you two laws only. Those two laws include other laws, also those two laws where written by Moses, so Jesus was really quoting Moses in the first place. I'm teaching you the truth, the uncut word of God, this is not taught in Sunday doctrine, haven't you read where Sunday comes from. Jesus said in Matthew 19: 16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself

Notice that there where more then two commandments. The sabbath day on the seventh day of the week, of course was automatically understood in these days which day is was on. This is how you enter in life.

 

[bro.tan]

Bro Mike...to say that you expect an answer out of me, is a little out of line. Thats not how we address ourselves one to another, in a demand form.... Didn't Paul said in Romans 12:10 - Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another; Also in Ephesians 4:32 - And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you. And last...
in Colossians 3:12 - Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

So, before we can get to the questions I recommend these verses.