Do the Protesters even know what they are Protesting ( Minneapolis).

[Rad]

I think I'll wait until you catch, before responding.
So as to not have to either one of us having to repeat ourselves.
Just say..."I've answered your last post!"

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

Could you give me the posts i need to reply to Brother Nick, as ive replied to some and parts of others, lets get this discussion back on track, i understand its down to me having not replied to posts in sequence and getting backlogged, but let me put it right and we'll get back to the real issue which is what does Christ require of us and how should we lead our lives in relation to his teachings and commandments.

With the love of Christ Brother Nick

Steve

 

[Rad]

@Rad i want you to understand i don't turn from you in anger or because i am mad or hold any hard feelings i turn from you and walk away in sorrow @Rad and i will cry out to the Lord that IF it is in His Will to please bring you into alignment with Him @Rad i really hope you too fall on your knees and cry for the Light to come and shine on you to bring you to the Lord as a child and allow Him and Him alone lead you and to be your strength and comfort because once you do Trust Him all that guilt that you said ya feel in the talks that took place here on talk Jesus that feeling that conviction will go away see @Rad you don't even understand when the Holy Spirit is convicting(idk if that spelled right smh) you..
Understand this im not a nice person Lord is helping me with that but the one i was at This point if i was still her id help you hurry yourself to hell instead of praying for ya..
Sadly i have learned my limitations i have been taught that lesson n that is a hard one for me i cant save you just like i cant save my daughter..i cant even save myself..


I hope you find the Light @Rad

Ó⁠╭⁠╮⁠Ò

You believe that i'm "Evil and walking in Darkness", i believe that you too are "walking in Darkness and following a life that shows little of of Christs Love and Compassion", i would also say "humility", but i see this in your last post, something i havent seen before,........ perhaps the best both of us can do is to pray for the other and hope that God puts us back on the straight and narrow path to Salvation, because we're ALL in need of Gods Mercy, Grace and Forgiveness

 

[Christ4Ever]

Could you give me the posts i need to reply to Brother Nick, as ive replied to some and parts of others, lets get this discussion back on track, i understand its down to me having not replied to posts in sequence and getting backlogged, but let me put it right and we'll get back to the real issue which is what does Christ require of us and how should we lead our lives in relation to his teachings and commandments.

With the love of Christ Brother Nick

Steve

We'll try this again starting from #261
In the future, include the Post # in your reply and state whether you are finished responding. Add the Post # especially when replying to additional parts of the original post. If the reply is only partial, I won’t respond until it’s complete. So, as with this post, either reply in full or indicate that it’s not yet finished, so I know whether to respond or wait.

Now, therein lies the problem with trying to communicate with you on this subject. You continually return to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”—the Golden Rule—yet seem unable to fully engage with the points I’ve raised about what righteous application of that command actually requires.

Consider this example (admittedly extreme, but one I haven’t used before): If a pedophile or any other unrepentant immoral person applied the Golden Rule strictly according to their own desires, they could justify introducing others to the same acts—after all, they have no problem with it being done to themselves. This conclusion is clearly outrageous and wrong. Yet it flows directly from a purely subjective reading of “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” If the standard is simply “whatever I personally find acceptable,” almost any behavior can be rationalized. This reveals the danger of using one’s own preferences as the ultimate measure of righteousness—especially when imposing that judgment on others without their consent. I do not believe this is what Jesus intended.

This same approach treats taking resources from one group and giving them to another without consent as acceptable. When policies effectively allow individuals into a country or community without the existing residents having a meaningful say, it imposes burdens and risks on them based solely on our own sense of compassion or justice.

I understand you see this differently. You appear to assess whether other countries are providing adequate services and opportunities, and if they fall short of what you consider sufficient, you view external pressure or intervention as justified. However, as I’ve noted before, many of these places already offer the kinds of provisions you mentioned—even if they don’t reach the higher standards you believe are required.

In practice, this results in redistributing resources or imposing costs on some without their consent to address what one judges to be greater needs elsewhere. While motivated by a desire to obey Jesus’ commands, this method raises serious questions about whether it truly aligns with His teachings. Scripture strongly affirms generosity and care for the vulnerable, but it also upholds justice, personal responsibility, and voluntary giving. Jesus never condoned theft or coercion as a means of fulfilling the law of love.

Moreover, experience shows that such interventions often produce unintended negative consequences that ultimately harm the very people they aim to help, as well as broader stability and relationships.

Believe it or not, that’s socialism/communism at its core. Don’t get me wrong—capitalism has serious flaws when taken to extremes as well. The real difference lies in the approach to human creativity and productivity. One system seeks to reward and expand it; the other penalizes it by seizing the fruits of innovation and redistributing them to everyone, regardless of whether they contributed.

If inventors and investors can keep meaningful gains from their risks and efforts, they will continue creating and investing. But if they see their work taken and given to others who contributed nothing, why would they persist? It’s doubtful they would.

This principle is clearly stated in 2 Thessalonians 3:7-10: those who are able should work to provide for themselves rather than live off the labor of others. When it comes to the organizations and people you’re supporting in other countries—do they actually follow this biblical standard? It seems doubtful. Until our previous conversation, you weren’t even aware of whether these groups made any effort to share or spread the Gospel alongside the aid.

In truth, then, your decision to support these efforts isn’t really about furthering the Kingdom of God, is it? Providing goods and a path to a better life without Jesus seems closer to the actual priority. I do not believe this is what Jesus intended.

An additional point I’ve raised before is that these actions are also prompting governing authorities to enact even stricter laws than before—making both illegal and legal immigration more difficult. I’m not sure you’ve fully considered that consequence.

End of reply to post #261.

With the Love in Christ Jesus brother Steve.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

 

[Twistie]

You believe that i'm "Evil and walking in Darkness", i believe that you too are "walking in Darkness and following a life that shows little of of Christs Love and Compassion", i would also say "humility", but i see this in your last post, something i havent seen before,........ perhaps the best both of us can do is to pray for the other and hope that God puts us back on the straight and narrow path to Salvation, because we're ALL in need of Gods Mercy, Grace and Forgiveness

Says the one who has not a lick of courage to be able to do was is right in the Eyes of the Lord..says the one that would put his own granny out in the streets for a rapist or murderer..
Says the one that dont know their right from their Left..

Like its is written i shall do..

But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone

Lord shows what you are not I

 

[Rad]

We'll try this again starting from #261
In the future, include the Post # in your reply and state whether you are finished responding. Add the Post # especially when replying to additional parts of the original post. If the reply is only partial, I won’t respond until it’s complete. So, as with this post, either reply in full or indicate that it’s not yet finished, so I know whether to respond or wait.

Now, therein lies the problem with trying to communicate with you on this subject. You continually return to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”—the Golden Rule—yet seem unable to fully engage with the points I’ve raised about what righteous application of that command actually requires.

Consider this example (admittedly extreme, but one I haven’t used before): If a pedophile or any other unrepentant immoral person applied the Golden Rule strictly according to their own desires, they could justify introducing others to the same acts—after all, they have no problem with it being done to themselves. This conclusion is clearly outrageous and wrong. Yet it flows directly from a purely subjective reading of “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” If the standard is simply “whatever I personally find acceptable,” almost any behavior can be rationalized. This reveals the danger of using one’s own preferences as the ultimate measure of righteousness—especially when imposing that judgment on others without their consent. I do not believe this is what Jesus intended.

But they would have a problem in having it done to themselves, i would imagine most pedophiles , child abusers, rapists, or those that inflict sadistic acts upon others would not want those same acts inflicted on them, would the rapist want to be raped, the pedophile want to be abused as a child, the sadist have cruel and painful acts inflicted on them, no they wouldnt, the "golden rule of "treat others as you'd want to be treated "applies to nearly all humans, and its probably only those with a severe mental disorder who would enjoy having pain, cruelty and suffering inflicted on them, as such, the golden rule is a firm basis on which to base our actions and when combined with "Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and Love others as you Love yourself" provides the bedrock of our faith

This same approach treats taking resources from one group and giving them to another without consent as acceptable. When policies effectively allow individuals into a country or community without the existing residents having a meaningful say, it imposes burdens and risks on them based solely on our own sense of compassion or justice.

But that is the basis of any Democracy, the will of the majority determines the course of the Government, and if that means money is taken in the form of taxation from either willing or unwilling citizens to pay for services and programmes voted as most worthy by the electorate then thats what happens, or are you suggesting that everyone should be free to decide whether or not they pay and contribute to Government expenditure. So those that are anti war, or anti police would opt out of paying for the military and police services and those who are opposed to Aid or social services could opt out of paying for those, surely a recipe for Chaos and disorder and the disintegration of society. What i'm advocating is that Christians should base their actions , both in the personal and civil sphere, on the teachings of Christ and seek to see his values in their own life, and in the values of the society they belong to and the world we are all a part of.

I understand you see this differently. You appear to assess whether other countries are providing adequate services and opportunities, and if they fall short of what you consider sufficient, you view external pressure or intervention as justified. However, as I’ve noted before, many of these places already offer the kinds of provisions you mentioned—even if they don’t reach the higher standards you believe are required.

There are nearly 1 billion people in this world living in abject poverty on a couple of $'s a day, 800 million are hungry and lack access to clean water, around 6 million young children die every year from the effects of malnutrition and easily preventable disease, yet we live in a world where there is adequate resources to provide everyone with a decent standard of living. Only Greed and selfishness prevents the world from addressing these problems, and as Christians we must act to bring the Light of Gods Justice, Mercy and Kindness into the darkness of this suffering world.

In practice, this results in redistributing resources or imposing costs on some without their consent to address what one judges to be greater needs elsewhere. While motivated by a desire to obey Jesus’ commands, this method raises serious questions about whether it truly aligns with His teachings. Scripture strongly affirms generosity and care for the vulnerable, but it also upholds justice, personal responsibility, and voluntary giving. Jesus never condoned theft or coercion as a means of fulfilling the law of love.

So do you believe that feeding a starving child is worth "imposing costs on some without their consent ", or that providing medical care and clean water to prevent the huge numbers of deaths of young children from Diarrohea is worth "imposing costs on some without their consent", because i certainly do, as Christians we have a duty both in our personal and civil lives to follow and apply Christs teachings, and Compassion for those in need is an integral part of our faith, so whether it be our own personal giving, or advocating the provision of Aid ,paid through Taxation not "theft or coercion", both are essential elements in showing Gods love to those in need.

Moreover, experience shows that such interventions often produce unintended negative consequences that ultimately harm the very people they aim to help, as well as broader stability and relationships.

I would be interested to know which interventions you are referring to, but in general, the effects of not helping those in need are far worse than if we helped. When war, famine, climate induced disasters, or just general poverty impact on peoples lives, to do nothing just adds to the suffering and death, well directed and appropriate aid can save the lives of many and with further well funded, long term programmes can help people prepare for the next disaster or work to life themselves out of the poverty they are in.

Believe it or not, that’s socialism/communism at its core. Don’t get me wrong—capitalism has serious flaws when taken to extremes as well. The real difference lies in the approach to human creativity and productivity. One system seeks to reward and expand it; the other penalizes it by seizing the fruits of innovation and redistributing them to everyone, regardless of whether they contributed.

I dont see that as "socialism", i see it as the application of Christs teachings and commandments in a world of plenty but riven by Poverty, Death and Destruction. Why is it "Socialism" to help the poor, why is it Socialism to advocate for increased allocation of resources for those in need, why is it socialism to try to "love your Neighbour as yourself" and "treat others as you'd want to be treated"?, because if we were in their situation, we would want help, we wouldnt want to see our children starve, or every day to be a gruelling struggle to survive, or watch our crops wither in the ground as climate change makes Droughts and heatwaves more intense and longer, we'd want a "Hand up" to help us survive and get out of the situation we're in.

You have to ask yourself what is the driving force behind Capitalism, it is all about greed and selfishness, of maximising profit, of getting as much out of the system as you can regardless of the consequences. Look around the world Brother Nick, this is what Capitalism has brought us to, a world where hundreds of millions live and die in abject poverty while a favoured few live in wealth and comfort, a world pushed to the brink of destruction by an all embracing rapacious greed, a world devoid of Love, Compassion and Justice and where the overriding question is "Whats in it for me"?.Is that the world you envisage Christ would want us to create?.

If inventors and investors can keep meaningful gains from their risks and efforts, they will continue creating and investing. But if they see their work taken and given to others who contributed nothing, why would they persist? It’s doubtful they would.

As i say, greed and selfishness are the driving force behind Capitalism, remove those and the whole Evil system falls apart

This principle is clearly stated in 2 Thessalonians 3:7-10: those who are able should work to provide for themselves rather than live off the labor of others. When it comes to the organizations and people you’re supporting in other countries—do they actually follow this biblical standard? It seems doubtful. Until our previous conversation, you weren’t even aware of whether these groups made any effort to share or spread the Gospel alongside the aid

Agreed, and people in other countries work hard to try to provide for themselves and their families, i have seen situations where i am amazed at the resilience of them and just how hard they do work, i was watching a programme of the Salt producers of India a couple of days ago, people working in the desert, enduring all sorts of hardship just to survive and provide for their families, it would do ALL of us good to be taken with our families to the poorest places in the world, places of great hardship and suffering, and live there for a year, and see then whether or not we think they follow this Biblical standard, because the truth is, if they dont work they die, and so do their families, there is no Social security, no retirement plans, no public provision of support, you either work hard or suffer and die, thats the choice many face in this world. Who amongst us would want to have to live like that, and the fact is it doesnt have to be that way, its a choice we make every day, so lets make the choice to show Christs Love, Compassion and justice for those in need and work to try to make this world a better place for ALL of Gods creation.

And after our last conversation about this i have switched some more of my giving to Christian based Charities, those that combine good works with their faith, as Christ said, "Let your good works so shine that men may see them and glorify your father in heaven", i still give to non Christian groups like MSF and Amnesty, MSF because of its special Medical services they provide and Amnesty because of its vast experience in Human rights protections and Political prisoners.

In truth, then, your decision to support these efforts isn’t really about furthering the Kingdom of God, is it? Providing goods and a path to a better life without Jesus seems closer to the actual priority. I do not believe this is what Jesus intended.

But in providing food for the hungry, clothes for the Naked, Housing for the homeless, water for the thirsty, medical provision for the sick and help for the imprisoned we are "furthering the Kingdom of God", each righteous act we take in following Christs teachings and commandments is "furthering the Kingdom of God", each time we treat others as we'd want to be treated and love our neighbour as ourselves we are "furthering the Kingdom of God", for our faith cannot be just by words alone, but must be by actions of Love, Compassion and Justice so that men may see our good works and praise our Father in Heaven.

An additional point I’ve raised before is that these actions are also prompting governing authorities to enact even stricter laws than before—making both illegal and legal immigration more difficult. I’m not sure you’ve fully considered that consequence.

That does not surprise me, for the Kingdoms of this world are ruled by the Devil, the forces of Greed and selfishness, Power and lust predominate and any action that tries to bring light into the Darkness will be resisted by these forces of Evil. But with Christs help and strength we must strive to overcome and bring Gods Love and Compassion into his suffering world.

End of reply

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick

Steve

End of reply to post #261.

With the Love in Christ Jesus brother Steve.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

 

[Christ4Ever]

But they would have a problem in having it done to themselves, i would imagine most pedophiles , child abusers, rapists, or those that inflict sadistic acts upon others would not want those same acts inflicted on them, would the rapist want to be raped, the pedophile want to be abused as a child, the sadist have cruel and painful acts inflicted on them, no they wouldnt, the "golden rule of "treat others as you'd want to be treated "applies to nearly all humans, and its probably only those with a severe mental disorder who would enjoy having pain, cruelty and suffering inflicted on them, as such, the golden rule is a firm basis on which to base our actions and when combined with "Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and Love others as you Love yourself" provides the bedrock of our faith

That you would imagine! That is the crux of what I have been trying to communicate to you, in the command given to all of us, and the one that keeps coming up is that the determination being made is by what you feel is right to do in the guise of love. That has always been where we are at loggerhead, because if isolated from the rest of scripture, you'd be right, but because of the rest of scripture you are not. Which is what you are having difficulty in seeing/believing.

You should not be surprised at the baseness/depravity of humanity to its wants/desires! Without the Holy Spirit/discernment you and I would be no different. Longing for that which we do not know, while still enjoying the perversity of sin. That Is the condition of man without Jesus and no amount of anything you provide all of humanity, if that were possible, and the reason for doing so would satisfy them or make them whole. That is what you cannot see. Love is the bedrock of our faith brother Steve, not the worlds. There is a thing called misguided love.

This same approach treats taking resources from one group and giving them to another without consent as acceptable. When policies effectively allow individuals into a country or community without the existing residents having a meaningful say, it imposes burdens and risks on them based solely on our own sense of compassion or justice.

But that is the basis of any Democracy, the will of the majority determines the course of the Government, and if that means money is taken in the form of taxation from either willing or unwilling citizens to pay for services and programmes voted as most worthy by the electorate then thats what happens, or are you suggesting that everyone should be free to decide whether or not they pay and contribute to Government expenditure. So those that are anti war, or anti police would opt out of paying for the military and police services and those who are opposed to Aid or social services could opt out of paying for those, surely a recipe for Chaos and disorder and the disintegration of society. What i'm advocating is that Christians should base their actions , both in the personal and civil sphere, on the teachings of Christ and seek to see his values in their own life, and in the values of the society they belong to and the world we are all a part of.

Not at all, but this Democracy in the US which is not what it was originally (Republic), is not one held anywhere else! For the dictates are for the benefit of the governed of which they are a part of. You are not a part of it, nor a contributor to it, and yet would dictate what they are to do! Those within it may disagree, but that is not your place to do so unless you come here and become a part of it. Instead, you are outside looking in and attempting to move the pieces to make happen what you believe is right. Without having to face the consequences of your actions. Seems like you've been there before. Ultimately, one would say about your actions is, you don't have an iron in the fire that allows you to do so! After reading this, what you will then do is move the goal post, to Jesus' commands supersedes all the governments, which puts us back to who gave the authority to the governments to govern in the first place, but God. Don't use the Acts argument to rebut what I'm presenting to you because it doesn't.

How you should have ended the last part is with "irrespective of how it may affect others" in the same pain and suffering you are attempting to alleviate for others who are not of this democracy or belief for that matter. You would have God force the unbeliever to believe but that is not love. That is misguided love to think that is the way it should happen. That is not what Jesus is communicating or asking for you to do.

I understand you see this differently. You appear to assess whether other countries are providing adequate services and opportunities, and if they fall short of what you consider sufficient, you view external pressure or intervention as justified. However, as I’ve noted before, many of these places already offer the kinds of provisions you mentioned—even if they don’t reach the higher standards you believe are required.

There are nearly 1 billion people in this world living in abject poverty on a couple of $'s a day, 800 million are hungry and lack access to clean water, around 6 million young children die every year from the effects of malnutrition and easily preventable disease, yet we live in a world where there is adequate resources to provide everyone with a decent standard of living. Only Greed and selfishness prevents the world from addressing these problems, and as Christians we must act to bring the Light of Gods Justice, Mercy and Kindness into the darkness of this suffering world.

Are you going to solve this issue in what you are doing? No, you are not. Are you going to save these people? No, you can't. You are not in charge to make anything happen brother, as much as you'd like to, and know the resolution to be right. (hug) I know this to be true, because you are dealing with the symptoms and not the cause! Until you address that, no matter what you do in trying to change humanity to do what is right, it will not happen. You’re more likely to push those who might have been willing to help you into even greater resistance against what you’re doing!

Again, you are misguided, in the belief that taking from one to help others is a sign of God's Justice, Mercy, and Kindness. If you are able to convince them to voluntarily do so it would be fine, but attempting to force them to, is not of God. Don't forget the story in Acts of Ananias and Sapphira.

In practice, this results in redistributing resources or imposing costs on some without their consent to address what one judges to be greater needs elsewhere. While motivated by a desire to obey Jesus’ commands, this method raises serious questions about whether it truly aligns with His teachings. Scripture strongly affirms generosity and care for the vulnerable, but it also upholds justice, personal responsibility, and voluntary giving. Jesus never condoned theft or coercion as a means of fulfilling the law of love.

So do you believe that feeding a starving child is worth "imposing costs on some without their consent ", or that providing medical care and clean water to prevent the huge numbers of deaths of young children from Diarrohea is worth "imposing costs on some without their consent", because i certainly do, as Christians we have a duty both in our personal and civil lives to follow and apply Christs teachings, and Compassion for those in need is an integral part of our faith, so whether it be our own personal giving, or advocating the provision of Aid ,paid through Taxation not "theft or coercion", both are essential elements in showing Gods love to those in need.

Your duty as a Christian is to give them Jesus! Which you cannot force them to accept!!! Is it better for them to die with a full belly and healthy but not have Jesus, or starving, and sickly, but with Jesus? Both is not an option, because that's not what you are doing is it??? Though in part you are changing this, which is all to the good!

You like to mention "taxes", and what is being done with them. What you fail to understand, that it's for the governed to decide, and not those who are not being taxed to have a say in. Not to be cruel, but the latter is you. You have no say in the USA now. Just like I have no say for the things done with the taxes you pay, where you live. Whether I agree with what is being done or not. Remember part of the reason the colonies went to war with England, was because of that very thing. The rallying cry was Taxation without Representation! Research that saying and you will see the why of it if you don't know already. That is why you will create resistance instead of finding help.

Moreover, experience shows that such interventions often produce unintended negative consequences that ultimately harm the very people they aim to help, as well as broader stability and relationships.

I would be interested to know which interventions you are referring to, but in general, the effects of not helping those in need are far worse than if we helped. When war, famine, climate induced disasters, or just general poverty impact on peoples lives, to do nothing just adds to the suffering and death, well directed and appropriate aid can save the lives of many and with further well funded, long term programmes can help people prepare for the next disaster or work to life themselves out of the poverty they are in.

This should have been with the section that followed in respect to socialism/communism.

Believe it or not, that’s socialism/communism at its core. Don’t get me wrong—capitalism has serious flaws when taken to extremes as well. The real difference lies in the approach to human creativity and productivity. One system seeks to reward and expand it; the other penalizes it by seizing the fruits of innovation and redistributing them to everyone, regardless of whether they contributed.

I dont see that as "socialism", i see it as the application of Christs teachings and commandments in a world of plenty but riven by Poverty, Death and Destruction. Why is it "Socialism" to help the poor, why is it Socialism to advocate for increased allocation of resources for those in need, why is it socialism to try to "love your Neighbour as yourself" and "treat others as you'd want to be treated"?, because if we were in their situation, we would want help, we wouldnt want to see our children starve, or every day to be a gruelling struggle to survive, or watch our crops wither in the ground as climate change makes Droughts and heatwaves more intense and longer, we'd want a "Hand up" to help us survive and get out of the situation we're in.

You have to ask yourself what is the driving force behind Capitalism, it is all about greed and selfishness, of maximising profit, of getting as much out of the system as you can regardless of the consequences. Look around the world Brother Nick, this is what Capitalism has brought us to, a world where hundreds of millions live and die in abject poverty while a favoured few live in wealth and comfort, a world pushed to the brink of destruction by an all embracing rapacious greed, a world devoid of Love, Compassion and Justice and where the overriding question is "Whats in it for me"?.Is that the world you envisage Christ would want us to create?.

I know you don't see it, but its rather simple believe it or not. One is voluntary (Christian), while the other is involuntary (Socialism/Communism). See Acts again.

People need to stop relying on the government to fix the problems, instead if the Church were truly spread as much as it should be, they'd be the ones resolving the issues of need!!! That is why you're supposed to spread the Gospel, because by doing so, you are creating an extension of the Body of Christ, the Church, to do the things that the governments are not doing. You'd also would have Godly men & women serving in the governments, because where do those servants come from who are in government??? The resource for those public servants is the society they come from!

Remember my mentioning of Dominionism? When you talk about trying to establish the Kingdom of God, that's what you are doing. Not right and not going to happen.

If inventors and investors can keep meaningful gains from their risks and efforts, they will continue creating and investing. But if they see their work taken and given to others who contributed nothing, why would they persist? It’s doubtful they would.

As i say, greed and selfishness are the driving force behind Capitalism, remove those and the whole Evil system falls apart

How do you get rid of greed & selfishness???? lol
JESUS!!!!

This principle is clearly stated in 2 Thessalonians 3:7-10: those who are able should work to provide for themselves rather than live off the labor of others. When it comes to the organizations and people you’re supporting in other countries—do they actually follow this biblical standard? It seems doubtful. Until our previous conversation, you weren’t even aware of whether these groups made any effort to share or spread the Gospel alongside the aid

Agreed, and people in other countries work hard to try to provide for themselves and their families, i have seen situations where i am amazed at the resilience of them and just how hard they do work, i was watching a programme of the Salt producers of India a couple of days ago, people working in the desert, enduring all sorts of hardship just to survive and provide for their families, it would do ALL of us good to be taken with our families to the poorest places in the world, places of great hardship and suffering, and live there for a year, and see then whether or not we think they follow this Biblical standard, because the truth is, if they dont work they die, and so do their families, there is no Social security, no retirement plans, no public provision of support, you either work hard or suffer and die, thats the choice many face in this world. Who amongst us would want to have to live like that, and the fact is it doesnt have to be that way, its a choice we make every day, so lets make the choice to show Christs Love, Compassion and justice for those in need and work to try to make this world a better place for ALL of Gods creation.

And after our last conversation about this i have switched some more of my giving to Christian based Charities, those that combine good works with their faith, as Christ said, "Let your good works so shine that men may see them and glorify your father in heaven", i still give to non Christian groups like MSF and Amnesty, MSF because of its special Medical services they provide and Amnesty because of its vast experience in Human rights protections and Political prisoners.

Some of your giving has been moved to Christian based Charities??? Move all of it! Unless there are no Christian Organizations that are doing the work where you want to have effect of your charity, then see about having one created that will do so! Not to repeat myself, but they need Jesus, more than anything else! Using resources to take care of needs allows at times the door to be cracked that allows the Gospel to enter. I have no problem with that. God bless you in this endeavor too!

In truth, then, your decision to support these efforts isn’t really about furthering the Kingdom of God, is it? Providing goods and a path to a better life without Jesus seems closer to the actual priority. I do not believe this is what Jesus intended.

But in providing food for the hungry, clothes for the Naked, Housing for the homeless, water for the thirsty, medical provision for the sick and help for the imprisoned we are "furthering the Kingdom of God", each righteous act we take in following Christs teachings and commandments is "furthering the Kingdom of God", each time we treat others as we'd want to be treated and love our neighbour as ourselves we are "furthering the Kingdom of God", for our faith cannot be just by words alone, but must be by actions of Love, Compassion and Justice so that men may see our good works and praise our Father in Heaven.

You said it, "in Christ"! You know Jesus, but do those you are helping know Him, and are you allowed to help them know Him? Because you might believe you are furthering the Kingdom of God, but without Jesus, they're not going to be able to enter the very place you want them to be a part of!!!

An additional point I’ve raised before is that these actions are also prompting governing authorities to enact even stricter laws than before—making both illegal and legal immigration more difficult. I’m not sure you’ve fully considered that consequence.

That does not surprise me, for the Kingdoms of this world are ruled by the Devil, the forces of Greed and selfishness, Power and lust predominate and any action that tries to bring light into the Darkness will be resisted by these forces of Evil. But with Christs help and strength we must strive to overcome and bring Gods Love and Compassion into his suffering world.

Love you brother! Through Jesus! Again, and Again, and Again, ad infinitum! The Gospel being presented to them, and Jesus in their hearts minds and souls spoken of by their lips as their Savior is what will overcome anything even death!

When they are able to see the marks of Jesus, in the people before them, that is when...

End of reply.

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

 

[Twistie]

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear @Rad
I believe this was one of your issues as well though I do not believe it was in this thread. This was eye opening to me in many respects, and to hear it from an African Ambassador carries more weight since she sees it first-hand. I suggest you listen to it.

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

 

[Twistie]

Dear @Rad
I believe this was one of your issues as well though I do not believe it was in this thread. This was eye opening to me in many respects, and to hear it from an African Ambassador carries more weight since she sees it first-hand. I suggest you listen to it.

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

What i find Truly odd about those that think like rad is that it don't matter how the people in that country feels about it their feelings n how they think things should be done are more important..

Hope alls well..

ʘ⁠‿⁠ʘ

 

[th1bill]

May Jesus fill us with his love and wisdom.

Over the last few weeks we have seen all sorts of protesting going on in various places around the country, but primarily in Minneapolis where it's just gone nuts basically.

But something has come up to my mind after one of the people here posted about how Christians should act, and he used the issue about the protesters in Minneapolis as an example and what they were protesting about. The thing that came to my mind is that the majority of the protesters are paid to protest

That's right they are being paid to protest.

I was watching OAN news, a conservative news station and they had a few Clips on about the protesters in Minneapolis. And I don't think that they caught something that was said but I heard it in one of the clips which was this lady exclaiming to a police officer that she was making $200,000 in a year to protest. I've also heard a few other protesters stating that they were making $80,000 and another saying that they made $120,000 in a year to protest.

I do know that George Soros along with a number of other billionaires who hate President Trump, are funding the protesters. And causing the number of protesters to inflate the actual truth of how many people are really against different things around the country.

So before you are beguiled, or deceived by the media about all these protesters just remember in the back of your mind that a majority of them are being paid to do that and I would honestly believe that they don't even know what their protesting

During the Mafia Rule of the Socialist Democrats, largely orchestrated by Somalian House Representatives, Somalian Gangsters stole billions and the Don of the Biden Mob became extremely rich also. The protestors are Somalian paid and have no idea of where this leads.

 

[Twistie]

Thanks for the post; very interesting : )

I believe that this has been going on for many, many years even or especially in countries like South Africa (inciting the crowds ...)

The elites have always paid the poor, desperate or immoral to do their dirty work ... we know who are behind the WW's and the Global take-over.
We should know what is going on, however, we need to focus on God and learn more about Him, and how He is moving in the World today.
Focusing on what He is doing, is so more rewarding.

These verses come to mind:

• Jeremiah 17:5: "Cursed is the man who trusts in mankind, who makes mere flesh his strength and turns his heart from the LORD."
• Isaiah 2:22: "Put no more trust in man, who has only the breath in his nostrils. Of what account is he?"
• Psalm 118:8-9: "It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man. It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in princes."

This is why we are told..

And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God

Hope alls well!

◉⁠‿⁠◉

 

[Rad]

That you would imagine! That is the crux of what I have been trying to communicate to you, in the command given to all of us, and the one that keeps coming up is that the determination being made is by what you feel is right to do in the guise of love. That has always been where we are at loggerhead, because if isolated from the rest of scripture, you'd be right, but because of the rest of scripture you are not. Which is what you are having difficulty in seeing/believing.

But thats what we are called to do, "To treat others as we would want them to treat us" and to "Love our Neighbours as ourselves", that together with "To Love God with all of our Heart, Soul and mind" is the basis of our faith, and the solid rock on which Christs teachings are based. There are specific examples where Christs commandments override this, as in the case of not resisting evil and turning the other cheek, but in general, they are the basic principles on which our faith is built.

You should not be surprised at the baseness/depravity of humanity to its wants/desires! Without the Holy Spirit/discernment you and I would be no different. Longing for that which we do not know, while still enjoying the perversity of sin. That Is the condition of man without Jesus and no amount of anything you provide all of humanity, if that were possible, and the reason for doing so would satisfy them or make them whole. That is what you cannot see. Love is the bedrock of our faith brother Steve, not the worlds. There is a thing called misguided love.

After more than 40 years campaigning on numerous issues i have encountered so many forms of Evil and depravity, i try not to be shocked anymore at what i witness but it never fails to astound me the capacity of ordinary people to commit acts of extraordinary Evil. But whether i regard them as evil or not, I am still called to treat them as i would want to be treated and Love them as i love myself, Matthew 5: 43-48.

Not at all, but this Democracy in the US which is not what it was originally (Republic), is not one held anywhere else! For the dictates are for the benefit of the governed of which they are a part of. You are not a part of it, nor a contributor to it, and yet would dictate what they are to do! Those within it may disagree, but that is not your place to do so unless you come here and become a part of it. Instead, you are outside looking in and attempting to move the pieces to make happen what you believe is right. Without having to face the consequences of your actions. Seems like you've been there before. Ultimately, one would say about your actions is, you don't have an iron in the fire that allows you to do so! After reading this, what you will then do is move the goal post, to Jesus' commands supersedes all the governments, which puts us back to who gave the authority to the governments to govern in the first place, but God. Don't use the Acts argument to rebut what I'm presenting to you because it doesn't.

I disagree completely, there are no limits or barriers Christ spoke of in relation to our actions. It is Gods world and our call to Justice, Love and compassion supersedes all man made barriers. Or are you saying that anyone who isnt a citizen of a particular country can't have any say in the actions of that country. In which case, if you are saying that, had anyone outside of Rwanda any right to criticise or act to stop the genocide taking place there in 1994?. And i'm not dictating what i think should be, only voicing my opinion, theres a big difference. And we disagree in the interpretation of Acts 5:29, ive shown you text in support of my position, could you show me any you have to support yours.

How you should have ended the last part is with "irrespective of how it may affect others" in the same pain and suffering you are attempting to alleviate for others who are not of this democracy or belief for that matter. You would have God force the unbeliever to believe but that is not love. That is misguided love to think that is the way it should happen. That is not what Jesus is communicating or asking for you to do.

We cannot know how our actions may affect others, yes we can speculate, but ultimately our duty as Christians is to follow the teachings and commandments of Christ and not speculate on what the consequences of those actions may or may not be, for if we do that, then Christs commandments become mere guidelines with each believer free to use their subjective judgement as to what the result may be and whether to apply them or not.

Are you going to solve this issue in what you are doing? No, you are not. Are you going to save these people? No, you can't. You are not in charge to make anything happen brother, as much as you'd like to, and know the resolution to be right. (hug) I know this to be true, because you are dealing with the symptoms and not the cause! Until you address that, no matter what you do in trying to change humanity to do what is right, it will not happen. You’re more likely to push those who might have been willing to help you into even greater resistance against what you’re doing!

We will never solve the problem,s of this world Brother Nick as well you know, we will never deal with the root causes because the root cause is sin, and that will be with us until Christ returns and brings this world to an end, but until then, we are called to spread the Gospel of Christ, act with Justice, Love and compassion to alleviate the sufferings of others and if we can, in some small way, alleviate the causes of their suffering as well. Thats the best any of us can do, to seek more is a futile exercise.

Again, you are misguided, in the belief that taking from one to help others is a sign of God's Justice, Mercy, and Kindness. If you are able to convince them to voluntarily do so it would be fine, but attempting to force them to, is not of God. Don't forget the story in Acts of Ananias and Sapphira.

So you dont believe in taxation, or democracy, for that is the result of those processes, taking from one group by force, and distributing to another.

Your duty as a Christian is to give them Jesus! Which you cannot force them to accept!!! Is it better for them to die with a full belly and healthy but not have Jesus, or starving, and sickly, but with Jesus? Both is not an option, because that's not what you are doing is it??? Though in part you are changing this, which is all to the good!

Our duty as a Christian is to follow the teachings and commandments of Christ, and while proclaiming the Gospel is part of that we are also called to live out Christs commandments as well, it isnt an either/or situation. We cant talk of Gods Love, compassion and justice if we dont show that in our lives and in our actions. The problem with your statement "Your duty is to give them Jesus", is that as illustrated here, there are so many different versions of what constitutes "Giving Jesus", can we say we are "Giving Jesus" if we live in wealth and comfort while hundreds of millions suffer in poverty and oppression , can we say we are "Giving Jesus" if we support a Government that has slashed Overseas Aid leading to the deaths of Millions of the poorest people in the world, can we say we are "Giving jesus" if we support strict border controls and the spending of $1.5 trillion on weapons of death and destruction. The question is "what sort of Jesus are we giving"?, and that can only be answered truthfully when we follow the teachings and Commandments of Christ

You like to mention "taxes", and what is being done with them. What you fail to understand, that it's for the governed to decide, and not those who are not being taxed to have a say in. Not to be cruel, but the latter is you. You have no say in the USA now. Just like I have no say for the things done with the taxes you pay, where you live. Whether I agree with what is being done or not. Remember part of the reason the colonies went to war with England, was because of that very thing. The rallying cry was Taxation without Representation! Research that saying and you will see the why of it if you don't know already. That is why you will create resistance instead of finding help.

Not to reiterate what ive already said, but are you really saying that because i'm not a US citizen i can have no say in what the US does or doesnt do, especially if those actions contravene the teachings of Christ. So the slashing of overseas aid, or the massive increase in the arms budget, or the funding of ICE and the building of detention centres are purely a US issue, and what about the attack on Iran by the US, is that an issue i can have a say in?. I take the view as ive said before that its Gods world, and anything that happens in his world is my concern and i see nothing in Christs teachings that says i should limit my concern purely to my own country.

This should have been with the section that followed in respect to socialism/communism.



I know you don't see it, but its rather simple believe it or not. One is voluntary (Christian), while the other is involuntary (Socialism/Communism). See Acts again.

But ALL Governments implement taxation to fulfill their policies, its ALL involuntary and just a question of how much they tax and what they use that money for. I dont see it as "socialism" when Government expenditure is used to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, provide water for the thirsty, treat the sick and help the imprisoned, rather than line the pockets of the already wealthy, provide more guns and weapons, boost the profits of corporations and slash provision for the poorest.

People need to stop relying on the government to fix the problems, instead if the Church were truly spread as much as it should be, they'd be the ones resolving the issues of need!!! That is why you're supposed to spread the Gospel, because by doing so, you are creating an extension of the Body of Christ, the Church, to do the things that the governments are not doing. You'd also would have Godly men & women serving in the governments, because where do those servants come from who are in government??? The resource for those public servants is the society they come from!

Why do people need to stop relying on the Government?, not for hand outs but for Hand ups, help in difficult situations where the Church either cant or wont help. The Catholic church sits on vast resources, as does the Church of England here in the UK, yet little of that gets to the poorest, and do not look for an extension of the Church or "Godly men and women" to take over the states duties, Christ spoke of "few there are that will be saved", there will never be a church that provides as you hope for, and if enough people vote for state provision, and if God is indeed ordaining that government with authority, who are we to contend that?.

Remember my mentioning of Dominionism? When you talk about trying to establish the Kingdom of God, that's what you are doing. Not right and not going to happen.

The Kingdom of God will never be established on this Earth until Christ returns, i accept this, but it still doesnt stop me doing what i can to alleviate the sufferings of the poor as Christ commanded i should.

How do you get rid of greed & selfishness???? lol
JESUS!!!!

Agreed, well sort of, because even with Jesus in our lives we are still sinners, subject to Greed and Selfishness, although we recognise it for the sin it is and try to purge it from our actions, so if thats the case how can you support Capitalism which is an economic system built upon greed and selfishness?. is that not contrary to all that Christ taught?.

Its been a long session , but times caught me up and ill have to finish off tomorrow.
With the love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick

Steve

Some of your giving has been moved to Christian based Charities??? Move all of it! Unless there are no Christian Organizations that are doing the work where you want to have effect of your charity, then see about having one created that will do so! Not to repeat myself, but they need Jesus, more than anything else! Using resources to take care of needs allows at times the door to be cracked that allows the Gospel to enter. I have no problem with that. God bless you in this endeavor too!



You said it, "in Christ"! You know Jesus, but do those you are helping know Him, and are you allowed to help them know Him? Because you might believe you are furthering the Kingdom of God, but without Jesus, they're not going to be able to enter the very place you want them to be a part of!!!



Love you brother! Through Jesus! Again, and Again, and Again, ad infinitum! The Gospel being presented to them, and Jesus in their hearts minds and souls spoken of by their lips as their Savior is what will overcome anything even death!

When they are able to see the marks of Jesus, in the people before them, that is when...

End of reply.

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

 

[Rad]

Some of your giving has been moved to Christian based Charities??? Move all of it! Unless there are no Christian Organizations that are doing the work where you want to have effect of your charity, then see about having one created that will do so! Not to repeat myself, but they need Jesus, more than anything else! Using resources to take care of needs allows at times the door to be cracked that allows the Gospel to enter. I have no problem with that. God bless you in this endeavor too!

I support MSF because they are a specialist medical organisation mainly consisting of Doctors and medical staff. They always seem to be first in and last out of any given crisis, especially the most dangerous ones, i also support Amnesty because of their long experience and effective advocacy on behalf of those facing persecution and other Human Rights abuses. There are a couple of other non Christian organisations i support on an irregular basis, again because of their specialist knowledge or focused advocacy. But in the main i am trying to focus my giving on christian based organisations, but even there it can be a problem, a number of years ago i had an altercation with one Christian charity that was paying there Chief Executive over £130,000 a year. A Christian Charity helping and advocating for the poorest, many of whom are barely surviving on less than a couple of $'s a day paying their CEO £130,000 plus, they either couldnt or didnt want to see the hypocrisy of that situation , or of Christs teachings on Wealth and riches.

You said it, "in Christ"! You know Jesus, but do those you are helping know Him, and are you allowed to help them know Him? Because you might believe you are furthering the Kingdom of God, but without Jesus, they're not going to be able to enter the very place you want them to be a part of!!!

For many of those facing poverty and deprivation death is an ever present companion, so save the body, do it in the name of Christ as you say and hope and pray that "they may see your good works and praise your Father in heaven".

Love you brother! Through Jesus! Again, and Again, and Again, ad infinitum! The Gospel being presented to them, and Jesus in their hearts minds and souls spoken of by their lips as their Savior is what will overcome anything even death!

Amen to that Brother Nick.

When they are able to see the marks of Jesus, in the people before them, that is when...

End of reply.

Thats my reply finished.

With the love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick

Steve

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

 

[Rad]

Dear @Rad
I believe this was one of your issues as well though I do not believe it was in this thread. This was eye opening to me in many respects, and to hear it from an African Ambassador carries more weight since she sees it first-hand. I suggest you listen to it.

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

It was interesting to watch that clip, i checked out the full interview, heres the link if anyone wants to see it

Its an argument ive heard many times before, and theres a lot i agree with. For decades "Aid" has been used as a political and economic tool to further the interests of the donor, Dont get me wrong, there are some very good Aid programmes, particularly those focusing on Nutrition, child health and Maternal mortality and fighting the AIDS epidemic, but all too often Aid has been used to prop up Governments donor countries think desirable and also to implement Economic and social programmes that further their own interests and not the country the Aid is being given to. Also, a lot of what is called Aid is distributed in the form of loans, loans that have to be repaid and Loans that carry conditions, particularly in relation to the opening up of Markets in Countries receiving the loans so that Donor country Multinationals can enter their market and cream off any profits that are to be made from resource extraction and service provisions such as water supplies. I remember 20 years ago the then Labour government that i supported offering "Aid" to Tanzania on the proviso that it privatised its water industry and allowed UK water Companies to enter its water supply market, and this has been repeated hundreds if not thousands of times across the "developing" world. .At the moment many African countries face a "Debt crisis" where they are spending more on debat servicing than on the provision of health and education for their populations. At the time of the Tsunami in Indonesia in 2004 where the country was devastated, the debt was i believe around $130 billion, mainly lent to the Dictator Suharto and his cronies who stole billions of $'s , western countries knew this but it suited their anti communist agenda to support a brutal dictator who imp-lemented a genocide in East Timor and oppressed his population. At the time of the Tsunami Suharto had gone, taking his billions with him, but the debt had to be repaid, even though the Indonesian people had seen little of the money, so in their Compassion, Debtor nations and the IMF and World bank gave Indonesia a moratorium on interest payments for 2 years i think it was, but the interest would be accrued to the original debt and interest charged on that as well. There are also so called "Vulture funds" which go around the world buying up poor country debts from financial institutions, institutions that because of the bad publicity they'd get trying to enforce payment on these loans have them as non servicing, sell them for a reduced amount to these "vulture funds" who then sue the country that owes the money for the full amount in court.

Oh yes, the world of "Overseas Aid" is a dark and murky world indeed, full of greed, duplicity and power plays, but there are also some remarkable success stories, like the fall in infant mortality from something like over 40,000 young children dying every day from hunger and disease in 1990 to now around 16,000, still an horrific figure, but a vast improvement, although last year, for the first time since 1990, the number of children dying from hunger and disease has risen, as has the number of people going hungry, as Aid provision has been slashed. The fight against AIDS has also relied much on Aid provision, and i dont know where she gets her accusation from that "people is South Africa were being injected with the AIDS virus", ive searched it but can find no evidence for it, but now there is genuine concern amongst African Governments and Aid agencies that the massive cutbacks in Aid provision could see an explosion in the AIDS epidemic. Heres just one example of what Aid cuts actually mean in practice, there was an increase globally of 160,000 deaths and 17,000 of them children when AIDS programmes were cut, and when Elon Musk and his DOGE cut $50million from the USAID budget because they said the money was for "Condoms for Gaza", meaning Hamas, they got it wrong, it wasnt Gaza in the middle east, but gaza in Mozambique, and it wasnt just condoms but an HIV/AIDS programme of treatment and prevention and the $50 million was to support AIDS services there in a country with one of the highest HIV/AIDS infection rates in the world, so the programme stopped, and that was repeated across the globe with the consequence of160,000 deaths which wouldnt probably have happened if the programmes had continued.

So yes, there is plenty of waste, there is plenty of corruption, there is plenty of politics and economics influencing Aid provision, and this needs to be addressed, but to stop AID completely, to suddenly end the provision of food, education ,medical services and help with economic development will mean that tens of millions of people will be pushed further into poverty and suffering and millions more will die when they didnt have to. Its OK for the woman criticising AID, she wont starve, she wont suffer, but shes prepared to put the death and suffering onto others because she believes in an untried idea of Africa standing on its own . I would love to put her and her family into the situation of those living in poverty, relying on AID provision for food, medical supplies and education for their children and then say " Do you still want to stop AID and have to provide for yourself", i would imagine her answer might be a lot different. Heres a couple of links for what the AID cuts might mean for Africa https://www.developmentaid.org/api/...-changing-face-of-aid-in-africa-080825-en.pdf https://www.imf.org/-/media/files/publications/reo/afr/2026/april/english/ch2.pdf

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick

Steve

 

[Christ4Ever]

It was interesting to watch that clip, i checked out the full interview, heres the link if anyone wants to see it

Its an argument ive heard many times before, and theres a lot i agree with. For decades "Aid" has been used as a political and economic tool to further the interests of the donor, Dont get me wrong, there are some very good Aid programmes, particularly those focusing on Nutrition, child health and Maternal mortality and fighting the AIDS epidemic, but all too often Aid has been used to prop up Governments donor countries think desirable and also to implement Economic and social programmes that further their own interests and not the country the Aid is being given to. Also, a lot of what is called Aid is distributed in the form of loans, loans that have to be repaid and Loans that carry conditions, particularly in relation to the opening up of Markets in Countries receiving the loans so that Donor country Multinationals can enter their market and cream off any profits that are to be made from resource extraction and service provisions such as water supplies. I remember 20 years ago the then Labour government that i supported offering "Aid" to Tanzania on the proviso that it privatised its water industry and allowed UK water Companies to enter its water supply market, and this has been repeated hundreds if not thousands of times across the "developing" world. .At the moment many African countries face a "Debt crisis" where they are spending more on debat servicing than on the provision of health and education for their populations. At the time of the Tsunami in Indonesia in 2004 where the country was devastated, the debt was i believe around $130 billion, mainly lent to the Dictator Suharto and his cronies who stole billions of $'s , western countries knew this but it suited their anti communist agenda to support a brutal dictator who imp-lemented a genocide in East Timor and oppressed his population. At the time of the Tsunami Suharto had gone, taking his billions with him, but the debt had to be repaid, even though the Indonesian people had seen little of the money, so in their Compassion, Debtor nations and the IMF and World bank gave Indonesia a moratorium on interest payments for 2 years i think it was, but the interest would be accrued to the original debt and interest charged on that as well. There are also so called "Vulture funds" which go around the world buying up poor country debts from financial institutions, institutions that because of the bad publicity they'd get trying to enforce payment on these loans have them as non servicing, sell them for a reduced amount to these "vulture funds" who then sue the country that owes the money for the full amount in court.

Oh yes, the world of "Overseas Aid" is a dark and murky world indeed, full of greed, duplicity and power plays, but there are also some remarkable success stories, like the fall in infant mortality from something like over 40,000 young children dying every day from hunger and disease in 1990 to now around 16,000, still an horrific figure, but a vast improvement, although last year, for the first time since 1990, the number of children dying from hunger and disease has risen, as has the number of people going hungry, as Aid provision has been slashed. The fight against AIDS has also relied much on Aid provision, and i dont know where she gets her accusation from that "people is South Africa were being injected with the AIDS virus", ive searched it but can find no evidence for it, but now there is genuine concern amongst African Governments and Aid agencies that the massive cutbacks in Aid provision could see an explosion in the AIDS epidemic. Heres just one example of what Aid cuts actually mean in practice, there was an increase globally of 160,000 deaths and 17,000 of them children when AIDS programmes were cut, and when Elon Musk and his DOGE cut $50million from the USAID budget because they said the money was for "Condoms for Gaza", meaning Hamas, they got it wrong, it wasnt Gaza in the middle east, but gaza in Mozambique, and it wasnt just condoms but an HIV/AIDS programme of treatment and prevention and the $50 million was to support AIDS services there in a country with one of the highest HIV/AIDS infection rates in the world, so the programme stopped, and that was repeated across the globe with the consequence of160,000 deaths which wouldnt probably have happened if the programmes had continued.

So yes, there is plenty of waste, there is plenty of corruption, there is plenty of politics and economics influencing Aid provision, and this needs to be addressed, but to stop AID completely, to suddenly end the provision of food, education ,medical services and help with economic development will mean that tens of millions of people will be pushed further into poverty and suffering and millions more will die when they didnt have to. Its OK for the woman criticising AID, she wont starve, she wont suffer, but shes prepared to put the death and suffering onto others because she believes in an untried idea of Africa standing on its own . I would love to put her and her family into the situation of those living in poverty, relying on AID provision for food, medical supplies and education for their children and then say " Do you still want to stop AID and have to provide for yourself", i would imagine her answer might be a lot different. Heres a couple of links for what the AID cuts might mean for Africa https://www.developmentaid.org/api/...-changing-face-of-aid-in-africa-080825-en.pdf https://www.imf.org/-/media/files/publications/reo/afr/2026/april/english/ch2.pdf

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick

Steve

Since this separate from the other postings, I will reply to it and ask you. What do you suggest should be done to fix this, and if the U.S. government isn’t willing, then what?

With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/

 

[Christ4Ever]

That you would imagine! That is the crux of what I have been trying to communicate to you, in the command given to all of us, and the one that keeps coming up is that the determination being made is by what you feel is right to do in the guise of love. That has always been where we are at loggerhead, because if isolated from the rest of scripture, you'd be right, but because of the rest of scripture you are not. Which is what you are having difficulty in seeing/believing.

But thats what we are called to do, "To treat others as we would want them to treat us" and to "Love our Neighbours as ourselves", that together with "To Love God with all of our Heart, Soul and mind" is the basis of our faith, and the solid rock on which Christs teachings are based. There are specific examples where Christs commandments override this, as in the case of not resisting evil and turning the other cheek, but in general, they are the basic principles on which our faith is built.

I do not disagree with basis of applying our faith in Christ Jesus. The point being is "Love our Neighbors as ourselves" and how it is put to action. The assumption is the foundation of that one has is based upon you being likeminded with your neighbor and knowing first what love is to begin with and that it will be beneficial to them. This is in part is the point that I am trying to show you. Romans 13:10 states Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

How can you be sure your actions are truly loving, and not unintentionally harming the very neighbor you claim to love through the methods you choose to help them; especially if those methods are simply the ones you prefer? This matters all the more when alternative ways exist that achieve the same goal without the wrongs of the process you have decided to use. Put it another way: if the loving path required the long, difficult, more dangerous road rather than the easier, less dangerous one (even if the easier road is just as long or longer), would you still be willing to accept that danger, especially if it endangered not only you but your family as well and would your neighbor make that same choice? Remember that the ends do not justify the means, particularly when you know the road others will travel is likely to fail and cause them greater harm in the long run. Shelah

After more than 40 years campaigning on numerous issues i have encountered so many forms of Evil and depravity, i try not to be shocked anymore at what i witness but it never fails to astound me the capacity of ordinary people to commit acts of extraordinary Evil. But whether i regard them as evil or not, I am still called to treat them as i would want to be treated and Love them as i love myself, Matthew 5: 43-48.

Agree in part. It still doesn't change what I address above in applying that very love.

Not at all, but this Democracy in the US which is not what it was originally (Republic), is not one held anywhere else! For the dictates are for the benefit of the governed of which they are a part of. You are not a part of it, nor a contributor to it, and yet would dictate what they are to do! Those within it may disagree, but that is not your place to do so unless you come here and become a part of it. Instead, you are outside looking in and attempting to move the pieces to make happen what you believe is right. Without having to face the consequences of your actions. Seems like you've been there before. Ultimately, one would say about your actions is, you don't have an iron in the fire that allows you to do so! After reading this, what you will then do is move the goal post, to Jesus' commands supersedes all the governments, which puts us back to who gave the authority to the governments to govern in the first place, but God. Don't use the Acts argument to rebut what I'm presenting to you because it doesn't.

I disagree completely, there are no limits or barriers Christ spoke of in relation to our actions. It is Gods world and our call to Justice, Love and compassion supersedes all man made barriers. Or are you saying that anyone who isnt a citizen of a particular country can't have any say in the actions of that country. In which case, if you are saying that, had anyone outside of Rwanda any right to criticise or act to stop the genocide taking place there in 1994?. And i'm not dictating what i think should be, only voicing my opinion, theres a big difference. And we disagree in the interpretation of Acts 5:29, ive shown you text in support of my position, could you show me any you have to support yours.

You should not disagree "completely"! How can you and still be a Christian, a follower of Jesus. So, you would wrong another by satisfying your professed love for a neighbor? That is not love brother Steve! Far from it. By excusing/disregarding the very things that God has put in place (which I to have covered) to satisfy your particular actions doesn't bring justice to them or in truth change anything. All it does is switch the pain to another to have to deal with, while you walk away in the belief of having shown your love. We should not disagree with Acts 5:29! What I disagree with is how you extrapolated it to cover your own actions above what God has also established to be true.

Here is why: No one is stopping you from spreading the Word of God, only identifying your actions as being done that is contrary to what they already have in place and are doing. The issue is that they are not doing it in the way you believe they should be. That makes it your problem not theirs and has nothing to do with what happened in Acts. Scripture calls us to seek justice and care for the vulnerable (Micah 6:8; Matthew 25), and we as Christians can advocate strongly for better approaches, but that doesn't make every enforcement action a violation of 'obey God rather than men.' that you are applying to what you are doing.

We can hold a wide range of good-faith views on immigration policy while submitting to the rule of law. The verse of Acts 5:29 is powerful for religious liberty; but broadening it risks undermining the very order the Bible says God uses to restrain evil.

How you should have ended the last part is with "irrespective of how it may affect others" in the same pain and suffering you are attempting to alleviate for others who are not of this democracy or belief for that matter. You would have God force the unbeliever to believe but that is not love. That is misguided love to think that is the way it should happen. That is not what Jesus is communicating or asking for you to do.

We cannot know how our actions may affect others, yes we can speculate, but ultimately our duty as Christians is to follow the teachings and commandments of Christ and not speculate on what the consequences of those actions may or may not be, for if we do that, then Christs commandments become mere guidelines with each believer free to use their subjective judgement as to what the result may be and whether to apply them or not.

True—if you are applying the entirety of Scripture to your actions and are guided by the Holy Spirit. Commands are not isolated in their own bubble, granting carte blanche to do whatever one has decided is right. The negative effect on others is not mere speculation; had the rest of Scripture been weighed beforehand, the harm would be recognized as real rather than dismissed as subjectively inconsequential.

We will never solve the problem,s of this world Brother Nick as well you know, we will never deal with the root causes because the root cause is sin, and that will be with us until Christ returns and brings this world to an end, but until then, we are called to spread the Gospel of Christ, act with Justice, Love and compassion to alleviate the sufferings of others and if we can, in some small way, alleviate the causes of their suffering as well. Thats the best any of us can do, to seek more is a futile exercise.

Exactly right brother. Kudos!

Again, you are misguided, in the belief that taking from one to help others is a sign of God's Justice, Mercy, and Kindness. If you are able to convince them to voluntarily do so it would be fine, but attempting to force them to, is not of God. Don't forget the story in Acts of Ananias and Sapphira.

So you dont believe in taxation, or democracy, for that is the result of those processes, taking from one group by force, and distributing to another.

Now that is within the governance structure set up by God. What did our Lord say when given a Roman coin? Mark 12:17 Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. Now, Ananias and Sapphira had a choice to make, and they took what they determined was for God, and kept it for themselves. It was the lie that cost them, because they didn't have to do any of it in the first place!

Your duty as a Christian is to give them Jesus! Which you cannot force them to accept!!! Is it better for them to die with a full belly and healthy but not have Jesus, or starving, and sickly, but with Jesus? Both is not an option, because that's not what you are doing is it??? Though in part you are changing this, which is all to the good!

Our duty as a Christian is to follow the teachings and commandments of Christ, and while proclaiming the Gospel is part of that we are also called to live out Christs commandments as well, it isnt an either/or situation. We cant talk of Gods Love, compassion and justice if we dont show that in our lives and in our actions. The problem with your statement "Your duty is to give them Jesus", is that as illustrated here, there are so many different versions of what constitutes "Giving Jesus", can we say we are "Giving Jesus" if we live in wealth and comfort while hundreds of millions suffer in poverty and oppression , can we say we are "Giving Jesus" if we support a Government that has slashed Overseas Aid leading to the deaths of Millions of the poorest people in the world, can we say we are "Giving jesus" if we support strict border controls and the spending of $1.5 trillion on weapons of death and destruction. The question is "what sort of Jesus are we giving"?, and that can only be answered truthfully when we follow the teachings and Commandments of Christ

You are right it is not either/or. That is why the example I set before you. You were doing the Christian virtues, but without the Gospel being given. As you now know that won't work and you are changing accordingly. At least I truly hope so!

Now are you in charge of that 1.5 trillion? But you are in charge of what you have, after taking care of your own, so do with that as supports the helping of others. As we both know, and you have acknowledged as well, we can't take care of everyone. It's not going to happen. So, we do the best we can, in the structure that is set up. And work within the system to make it better. Again, it will come down to is the government doing all it can do? My answer is no! But do we blow it up, and why start with the government that is doing the best? Why not taking down all the other ones first, so that this country with the resources will have an example to follow. Because if you take this one down, you'll wind up with what until a new one is established? Chaos, and even more poverty and oppression then there was before! Is this helping?

Oh, when I say give them Jesus, the Gospel which is Jesus is what is meant. You can't have the Gospel without Jesus brother!

You like to mention "taxes", and what is being done with them. What you fail to understand, that it's for the governed to decide, and not those who are not being taxed to have a say in. Not to be cruel, but the latter is you. You have no say in the USA now. Just like I have no say for the things done with the taxes you pay, where you live. Whether I agree with what is being done or not. Remember part of the reason the colonies went to war with England, was because of that very thing. The rallying cry was Taxation without Representation! Research that saying and you will see the why of it if you don't know already. That is why you will create resistance instead of finding help.

Not to reiterate what ive already said, but are you really saying that because i'm not a US citizen i can have no say in what the US does or doesnt do, especially if those actions contravene the teachings of Christ. So the slashing of overseas aid, or the massive increase in the arms budget, or the funding of ICE and the building of detention centres are purely a US issue, and what about the attack on Iran by the US, is that an issue i can have a say in?. I take the view as ive said before that its Gods world, and anything that happens in his world is my concern and i see nothing in Christs teachings that says i should limit my concern purely to my own country.

Yes! You have your own government, established by God to work through and will have greater influence than you can as an individual. The budgeting of what is spent is not only the US but done by every other country out there! Stop trying to bring down the one country that has a greater chance of helping instill Christian values throughout the world! Try that with others, like ungodly China, and see where that will get you.

This should have been with the section that followed in respect to socialism/communism.



I know you don't see it, but its rather simple believe it or not. One is voluntary (Christian), while the other is involuntary (Socialism/Communism). See Acts again.

But ALL Governments implement taxation to fulfill their policies, its ALL involuntary and just a question of how much they tax and what they use that money for. I dont see it as "socialism" when Government expenditure is used to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, house the homeless, provide water for the thirsty, treat the sick and help the imprisoned, rather than line the pockets of the already wealthy, provide more guns and weapons, boost the profits of corporations and slash provision for the poorest.

Of course you don't see it as socialism. Yet, it does more to not help the poor or I should say creates poorer people than a democracy does. The incentive that I've spoken of before, is just not there to change the people to increase productivity to allow it to be otherwise. If you don't think any government out there, be it socialism, democracy what have you don't have people lining their pockets of those already wealthy, then you're just not seeing it. For it is there even in China, or any other form of government. As we have both acknowledged before, until Jesus returns its not going to change, try as we might. Oh, and yes, we try, but remember...."process".

People need to stop relying on the government to fix the problems, instead if the Church were truly spread as much as it should be, they'd be the ones resolving the issues of need!!! That is why you're supposed to spread the Gospel, because by doing so, you are creating an extension of the Body of Christ, the Church, to do the things that the governments are not doing. You'd also would have Godly men & women serving in the governments, because where do those servants come from who are in government??? The resource for those public servants is the society they come from!

Why do people need to stop relying on the Government?, not for hand outs but for Hand ups, help in difficult situations where the Church either cant or wont help. The Catholic church sits on vast resources, as does the Church of England here in the UK, yet little of that gets to the poorest, and do not look for an extension of the Church or "Godly men and women" to take over the states duties, Christ spoke of "few there are that will be saved", there will never be a church that provides as you hope for, and if enough people vote for state provision, and if God is indeed ordaining that government with authority, who are we to contend that?.

Because as you've said yourself, the government does a poor job of it, and in truth its not their job! Before technology increased, cars, air etc. Who divided the resources to help the poor??? It surely was not the government, but people in communities who came together to help each other. We are the Church brother!

Remember my mentioning of Dominionism? When you talk about trying to establish the Kingdom of God, that's what you are doing. Not right and not going to happen.

The Kingdom of God will never be established on this Earth until Christ returns, i accept this, but it still doesnt stop me doing what i can to alleviate the sufferings of the poor as Christ commanded i should.

Agree!

How do you get rid of greed & selfishness???? lol
JESUS!!!!

Agreed, well sort of, because even with Jesus in our lives we are still sinners, subject to Greed and Selfishness, although we recognise it for the sin it is and try to purge it from our actions, so if thats the case how can you support Capitalism which is an economic system built upon greed and selfishness?. is that not contrary to all that Christ taught?.

Its been a long session , but times caught me up and ill have to finish off tomorrow.

I support that which motivates people to being creative, because they bring to bear talents that I believe are God given. Right now, capitalism is the one system out there, at least until the return of Jesus, that does that. Oddly, enough in the world that we live in, greed & selfishness move more people to do good than the Love of God does. That is why the Gospel and abiding in Christ Jesus, is more powerful than any other confab that one came come up with to solve that can eradicate "sin", as He did on the Cross!

Well, like you in this post I've finished the first part, but still have your next post to go that is a part of it, so don't reply to this one yet!!!

Love you brother!
With the Love in Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
Note: Normally, I double check these postings, but it's getting quite long, and I'm tired. Maybe, the next one will be shorter. I haven't looked at it yet, so it may be a couple of days before getting to it. Ah, it should give you some time to digest this long one! \o/