We'll try this again starting from #261
In the future, include the Post # in your reply and state whether you are finished responding. Add the Post # especially when replying to additional parts of the original post. If the reply is only partial, I won’t respond until it’s complete. So, as with this post, either reply in full or indicate that it’s not yet finished, so I know whether to respond or wait.
Now, therein lies the problem with trying to communicate with you on this subject. You continually return to “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”—the Golden Rule—yet seem unable to fully engage with the points I’ve raised about what righteous application of that command actually requires.
Consider this example (admittedly extreme, but one I haven’t used before): If a pedophile or any other unrepentant immoral person applied the Golden Rule strictly according to their own desires, they could justify introducing others to the same acts—after all, they have no problem with it being done to themselves. This conclusion is clearly outrageous and wrong. Yet it flows directly from a purely subjective reading of “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” If the standard is simply “whatever I personally find acceptable,” almost any behavior can be rationalized. This reveals the danger of using one’s own preferences as the ultimate measure of righteousness—especially when imposing that judgment on others without their consent. I do not believe this is what Jesus intended.
But they would have a problem in having it done to themselves, i would imagine most pedophiles , child abusers, rapists, or those that inflict sadistic acts upon others would not want those same acts inflicted on them, would the rapist want to be raped, the pedophile want to be abused as a child, the sadist have cruel and painful acts inflicted on them, no they wouldnt, the "golden rule of "treat others as you'd want to be treated "applies to nearly all humans, and its probably only those with a severe mental disorder who would enjoy having pain, cruelty and suffering inflicted on them, as such, the golden rule is a firm basis on which to base our actions and when combined with "Love God with all your heart, soul and mind and Love others as you Love yourself" provides the bedrock of our faith
This same approach treats taking resources from one group and giving them to another without consent as acceptable. When policies effectively allow individuals into a country or community without the existing residents having a meaningful say, it imposes burdens and risks on them based solely on our own sense of compassion or justice.
But that is the basis of any Democracy, the will of the majority determines the course of the Government, and if that means money is taken in the form of taxation from either willing or unwilling citizens to pay for services and programmes voted as most worthy by the electorate then thats what happens, or are you suggesting that everyone should be free to decide whether or not they pay and contribute to Government expenditure. So those that are anti war, or anti police would opt out of paying for the military and police services and those who are opposed to Aid or social services could opt out of paying for those, surely a recipe for Chaos and disorder and the disintegration of society. What i'm advocating is that Christians should base their actions , both in the personal and civil sphere, on the teachings of Christ and seek to see his values in their own life, and in the values of the society they belong to and the world we are all a part of.
I understand you see this differently. You appear to assess whether other countries are providing adequate services and opportunities, and if they fall short of what you consider sufficient, you view external pressure or intervention as justified. However, as I’ve noted before, many of these places already offer the kinds of provisions you mentioned—even if they don’t reach the higher standards you believe are required.
There are nearly 1 billion people in this world living in abject poverty on a couple of $'s a day, 800 million are hungry and lack access to clean water, around 6 million young children die every year from the effects of malnutrition and easily preventable disease, yet we live in a world where there is adequate resources to provide everyone with a decent standard of living. Only Greed and selfishness prevents the world from addressing these problems, and as Christians we must act to bring the Light of Gods Justice, Mercy and Kindness into the darkness of this suffering world.
In practice, this results in redistributing resources or imposing costs on some without their consent to address what one judges to be greater needs elsewhere. While motivated by a desire to obey Jesus’ commands, this method raises serious questions about whether it truly aligns with His teachings. Scripture strongly affirms generosity and care for the vulnerable, but it also upholds justice, personal responsibility, and voluntary giving. Jesus never condoned theft or coercion as a means of fulfilling the law of love.
So do you believe that feeding a starving child is worth "imposing costs on some without their consent ", or that providing medical care and clean water to prevent the huge numbers of deaths of young children from Diarrohea is worth "imposing costs on some without their consent", because i certainly do, as Christians we have a duty both in our personal and civil lives to follow and apply Christs teachings, and Compassion for those in need is an integral part of our faith, so whether it be our own personal giving, or advocating the provision of Aid ,paid through Taxation not "theft or coercion", both are essential elements in showing Gods love to those in need.
Moreover, experience shows that such interventions often produce unintended negative consequences that ultimately harm the very people they aim to help, as well as broader stability and relationships.
I would be interested to know which interventions you are referring to, but in general, the effects of not helping those in need are far worse than if we helped. When war, famine, climate induced disasters, or just general poverty impact on peoples lives, to do nothing just adds to the suffering and death, well directed and appropriate aid can save the lives of many and with further well funded, long term programmes can help people prepare for the next disaster or work to life themselves out of the poverty they are in.
Believe it or not, that’s socialism/communism at its core. Don’t get me wrong—capitalism has serious flaws when taken to extremes as well. The real difference lies in the approach to human creativity and productivity. One system seeks to reward and expand it; the other penalizes it by seizing the fruits of innovation and redistributing them to everyone, regardless of whether they contributed.
I dont see that as "socialism", i see it as the application of Christs teachings and commandments in a world of plenty but riven by Poverty, Death and Destruction. Why is it "Socialism" to help the poor, why is it Socialism to advocate for increased allocation of resources for those in need, why is it socialism to try to "love your Neighbour as yourself" and "treat others as you'd want to be treated"?, because if we were in their situation, we would want help, we wouldnt want to see our children starve, or every day to be a gruelling struggle to survive, or watch our crops wither in the ground as climate change makes Droughts and heatwaves more intense and longer, we'd want a "Hand up" to help us survive and get out of the situation we're in.
You have to ask yourself what is the driving force behind Capitalism, it is all about greed and selfishness, of maximising profit, of getting as much out of the system as you can regardless of the consequences. Look around the world Brother Nick, this is what Capitalism has brought us to, a world where hundreds of millions live and die in abject poverty while a favoured few live in wealth and comfort, a world pushed to the brink of destruction by an all embracing rapacious greed, a world devoid of Love, Compassion and Justice and where the overriding question is "Whats in it for me"?.Is that the world you envisage Christ would want us to create?.
If inventors and investors can keep meaningful gains from their risks and efforts, they will continue creating and investing. But if they see their work taken and given to others who contributed nothing, why would they persist? It’s doubtful they would.
As i say, greed and selfishness are the driving force behind Capitalism, remove those and the whole Evil system falls apart
This principle is clearly stated in 2 Thessalonians 3:7-10: those who are able should work to provide for themselves rather than live off the labor of others. When it comes to the organizations and people you’re supporting in other countries—do they actually follow this biblical standard? It seems doubtful. Until our previous conversation, you weren’t even aware of whether these groups made any effort to share or spread the Gospel alongside the aid
Agreed, and people in other countries work hard to try to provide for themselves and their families, i have seen situations where i am amazed at the resilience of them and just how hard they do work, i was watching a programme of the Salt producers of India a couple of days ago, people working in the desert, enduring all sorts of hardship just to survive and provide for their families, it would do ALL of us good to be taken with our families to the poorest places in the world, places of great hardship and suffering, and live there for a year, and see then whether or not we think they follow this Biblical standard, because the truth is, if they dont work they die, and so do their families, there is no Social security, no retirement plans, no public provision of support, you either work hard or suffer and die, thats the choice many face in this world. Who amongst us would want to have to live like that, and the fact is it doesnt have to be that way, its a choice we make every day, so lets make the choice to show Christs Love, Compassion and justice for those in need and work to try to make this world a better place for ALL of Gods creation.
And after our last conversation about this i have switched some more of my giving to Christian based Charities, those that combine good works with their faith, as Christ said, "Let your good works so shine that men may see them and glorify your father in heaven", i still give to non Christian groups like MSF and Amnesty, MSF because of its special Medical services they provide and Amnesty because of its vast experience in Human rights protections and Political prisoners.
In truth, then, your decision to support these efforts isn’t really about furthering the Kingdom of God, is it? Providing goods and a path to a better life without Jesus seems closer to the actual priority. I do not believe this is what Jesus intended.
But in providing food for the hungry, clothes for the Naked, Housing for the homeless, water for the thirsty, medical provision for the sick and help for the imprisoned we are "furthering the Kingdom of God", each righteous act we take in following Christs teachings and commandments is "furthering the Kingdom of God", each time we treat others as we'd want to be treated and love our neighbour as ourselves we are "furthering the Kingdom of God", for our faith cannot be just by words alone, but must be by actions of Love, Compassion and Justice so that men may see our good works and praise our Father in Heaven.
An additional point I’ve raised before is that these actions are also prompting governing authorities to enact even stricter laws than before—making both illegal and legal immigration more difficult. I’m not sure you’ve fully considered that consequence.
That does not surprise me, for the Kingdoms of this world are ruled by the Devil, the forces of Greed and selfishness, Power and lust predominate and any action that tries to bring light into the Darkness will be resisted by these forces of Evil. But with Christs help and strength we must strive to overcome and bring Gods Love and Compassion into his suffering world.
End of reply
With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother Nick
Steve
End of reply to post #261.
With the Love in Christ Jesus brother Steve.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
