Check out the Augustinian View of Predestination

[John Zain]

I now agree with the current unpopular view of such great theologians as:
St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards.

The natural (unsaved) man
-- is born with a sin nature and is totally separated from God.
-- is at enmity with God, which means he is an enemy of God.
-- is owed absolutely nothing, nada, zero, etc. by the totally Holy God.
-- insists on following his fallen nature and naturally chooses this over following God.
-- considers the gospel to be foolishness:
“For the message of the cross (the gospel) is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved (through sanctification) it is the power of God.” 1 Cor. 1:18
-- exercises his free will and miraculously all of a sudden chooses Jesus and his gospel ???

The free-will verses
“All”, “whoever”, “everyone who” believes … can be viewed as referring only to God’s elect.
In the OT, God proves that natural unsaved man cannot (or is not willing to) obey God, etc.
God chose His special people group to represent the human race, and they failed miserably.
Go ahead and “choose this day to believe and follow God”. If you are able to do this, super.
This is why He promised to institute His new/better covenant with His Messiah-Redeemer-Savior.
In the NT, those who believe have miraculously been given the necessary faith to believe.

Saving FAITH is a GIFT from God by His GRACE
Paul was privately trained by the Lord for 17 years Gal. 1:18, 2:1 prior to starting his ministry.
“For by grace (undeserved favor) you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works (anything you do), lest anyone should boast.” Eph. 2:8-9
Natural sin-laden, rebellious, etc. man is simply NOT capable of coming up with his own saving faith.

God has the right to do whatever He desires (whether you like it or not)
In Romans 9:9-24, Paul explains:
-- God chose Jacob over Esau before they were born (i.e. before they had done any good or evil).
-- The choice did not depend on any of God’s foreknowledge (knowledge of the future).
-- The choice did not depend on the 2 twins: “not of works (anything they did) but of Him who calls”.
-- The choice was strictly: “that the purpose of God according to election might stand”.
-- God has mercy and compassion on whom He chooses.
-- Who is chosen does not depend on man who desires it, works for it, etc.
-- Who is chosen only depends on God who shows mercy to certain ones.
-- The analogy of the potter and the clay from Isaiah 29:16 and Isaiah 45:9-13.
-- God prepares vessels for honor and vessels for dishonor.
-- God prepares vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.
-- God prepares vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory.
-- God called the Roman Christians to belong to this latter group.

God knows peoples’ hearts and who He wants to have in Heaven
“the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts” 1 Chr. 28:9
“I dwell in the high and holy place with him who has a contrite and humble spirit” Isaiah 57:15
A repentant heart is necessary: “… unless you repent you will all likewise perish” Luke 13:3,5
The poor (in various ways) are the most likely to have the right heart attitude:
“He (Father God) has anointed Me (Jesus) to preach the gospel to the poor” Luke 4:18
“Has God not chosen the poor to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom?” James 2:5

God predestines and chooses His elect
“God's elect ... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” 1 Pet. 1:1-2
“He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world … having predestined us” Eph. 1:4-5
“And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed (in the gospel)” Acts 13:48

God’s guardian angels protect His people until they obtain salvation
“Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will (in the future) inherit salvation?” Hebrews 1:14

God does the choosing, not us
“All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me” John 6:37
“No one can (has the ability to) come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” John 6:44
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you …” John 15:16

Man appears to have the freedom to choose
God’s plan of salvation: the sinless Messiah came to die on the cross for the sins of the elect,
and the elect must hear this gospel (good news), believe it, and believe-trust-obey- love Jesus.
The free-will verses encourage evangelists to take the gospel to the 4 corners of the earth.
The gospel must be presented to the elect before they can respond to it. And presenting it
to the non-elect ensures that they cannot claim at the Judgment that they never heard it.

The Augustinian view of predestination
Man is totally incapable of being saved on his own, but depends totally on God’s grace.
Man is not required to make any free-will choice to co-operate with God’s grace.
God’s choice of His elect has nothing at all to do with their choosing/believing the gospel.
All humans are destined to be separated from God, but God has chosen to grant mercy to some.
If you claim that God is not merciful enough (or, indeed, if you find any fault at all with God),
then you are committing blasphemy against God. So, it's best not to judge God.

 

[gdemoss]

1 Corinthians carnally minded.

I now agree with the current unpopular view of such great theologians as:
St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards.

<< 1 Corinthians 3 >>
King James Version
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

I am not of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards or any other so called theologian. I am of God who teaches me through his Holy Spirit how to follow after Jesus Christ his son. Of all the men that men have exalted over the course of history, I a weary as that which man greatly esteems is an abomination to God. This was said of the Pharisees who thought they knew it all.


<< 1 Corinthians 2 >>
King James Version
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

I forgo the Mars Hill of Christianity and place my faith in the message of Jesus Christ and him crucified for the sins of the world, given unto them who believe and follow by picking up their own cross and denying themselves, thereby having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


Peace upon all those who love the Lord Jesus Christ,

Gary

 

[David777]

Hello John Zain.

Very colorful, but not true!

Saving FAITH is a GIFT from God by His GRACE
Paul was privately trained by the Lord for 17 years Gal. 1:18, 2:1 prior to starting his ministry.
“For by grace (undeserved favor) you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works (anything you do), lest anyone should boast.” Eph. 2:8-9
Natural sin-laden, rebellious, etc. man is simply NOT capable of coming up with his own saving faith.

There was not a delay of 17 years, read the text (Acts) and get back to me. Look I will save you the trouble,

"and after taking some food, he regained his strength.Saul spent several days with the disciples in Damascus.
At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God." (Acts 9:20-21)

I do not believe in free will, nor do I hold to predestination of an individual.
Only that the Holy Spirit convicts the World of sin, righteousness and judgement. (John 16:8)

Does God draw all men, or only some???

What is beyond the scope of the text is impossible to know.

 

[David777]

Dear John.

Please do not misunderstand my intent.

This subject has been the object of debate and confusion.

It is not the separation of those who know (Calvinists) and the blind (others who disagree). No sir, it is an issue of interpretation.

If you can see an individual's election in Romans 8:29-30.
Then I am happy for you. But, Paul may be talking about the Jews John. If this is the case you are in error.

You are brave or foolish, you are advertising debatable opinion.
This becomes public and risky for you.

There are at least three opinions on this verse that I am aware of.

Why do people favor one over the others escapes me.

 

[John Zain]

There was not a delay of 17 years, read the text (Acts) and get back to me.
Look I will save you the trouble,
"and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Saul spent several days with the disciples
in Damascus. At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God."
(Acts 9:20-21)

Galatians 1:
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,
16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles,
I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood,
17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me;
but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.
19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.
20 (Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie.)
21 Afterward I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.
22 And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea which were in Christ.

Galatians 2:
1 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me.
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,
but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.

 

[John Zain]

If you can see an individual's election in Romans 8:29-30. Then I am happy for you.
But, Paul may be talking about the Jews, John. If this is the case you are in error.

In all of his letters, Paul is writing to Christians in Christian churches.
It should be clear that Romans 8 was written to all believing Christians.
Paul doesn't switch back and forth from talking to Christians to talking to non-Christians w/o telling us.

 

[David777]

Attention John Zain.

This is exactly what you said,

"Paul was privately trained by the Lord for 17 years Gal. 1:18, 2:1 prior to starting his ministry."

Read it again and see for yourself.

The correction is from the scripture, the book of Acts.

"and after taking some food, he regained his strength. Saul spent several days
with the disciples in Damascus. At once he began to preach in the synagogues
that Jesus is the Son of God."
(Acts 9:20-21)

If you can correct the error we can continue.

 

[John Zain]

David ... Sure, it's obvious.
I meant his ministry as recorded in Acts, followed by his NT letters to the churches which he founded.

Now, re: the interesting stuff ...

What are we going to do with all of the predestination/election verses?
Only some of them can be explained away by pointing to God's foreknowledge.

Then we have the free-will verses.
They can be explained by saying they are referring only to God's elect.
Example: "Whosoever believes will be saved".
Maybe all of the "whosoever"s are God's elect.
In this case, God is not lying.

 

[David777]

Yo John.

I will feed out some rope and let you continue regarding your reply.

Now, you state the following;

"In all of his letters, Paul is writing to Christians in Christian churches.

It should be clear that Romans 8 was written to all believing Christians.

Paul doesn't switch back and forth from talking to Christians to talking to non-Christians w/o telling us."

I am beginning to struggle with your statements.

Take for example your second sentence. It is not so much that Romans 8 is addressed to all Christians that is of significance. Rather, what is Paul discussing in Chapters 2-11. Why does Paul discuss the Jewish tension with Law and Grace? Who are the Jews? What is their role? Are they grafted out of the tree of life?

It is these subjects that Paul is addressing in Romans 2-11 that is of vital importance. In these Chapters of Romans, Paul reveals the real purpose of the letter.

Do you see my point John?

 

[Brother Mike]

Election:

Election Doctrine:


The belief that God is certainly a respecter of persons, that God already predestined who he created to go to heaven or hell. God made some with emotions, feelings, hopes, and dreams, to only burn eternally in Hell full of pain and anguish with no hope from the day they where born. The election god gets a kick out of this, but so does Satan.

Man has no choice, even if the Word is preached which should have had the power to produce faith, it does not. The Word being God, and the Word being preached does not produce faith. God himself personally must draw you to him without his Word, or your gonna roast.
as posted by John Zain:

In the NT, those who believe have miraculously been given the necessary faith to believe.

What a miracle........wow..


English is not really English, nor do those that believe in election understand simple English inside church. Outside of christian discussions they get this sudden grasp of what "whosoever" means, or the word "ALL", inside Christian discussion the forget the meaning of these words.

Also, to believe in Election, one must change the word of God to include the Word elected. Whosoever, means to only include the elected of course. Changing God's word is fine at this point. John Zain helps us with an example.

God’s plan of salvation: the sinless Messiah came to die on the cross for the sins of the elect,

Even though the bible states every man was given "THE" measure of faith, man given the ability to believe something. That simple won't do for the Election Doctrine. Man can't believe in anything that would save him. No matter what he he heard, man created in the image of God could not possibly reason within himself to make the right choice for Jesus. God has to pick who this amazing ability and gift goes to.

Which means the Bible is wrong, and we are not even close to the image of God.


The election person must also Back peddle on his election belief's or else he has to admit there is not need for any type of preaching. If we Go too hard core, we simply "Suspend" the belief system of the intelligent. John Zain was kind enough to provide an example of this.

the elect must hear this gospel (good news), believe it, and believe-trust-obey- love Jesus.
The free-will verses encourage evangelists to take the gospel to the 4 corners of the earth.
The gospel must be presented to the elect before they can respond to it. And presenting it
to the non-elect ensures that they cannot claim at the Judgment that they never heard it.

Did you read that? The gospel must be presented to the elect before they can respond to it?????????? Lets go back....

Natural sin-laden, rebellious, etc. man is simply NOT capable of coming up with his own saving faith.

It is very clear, the Elect was born without sin or rebellion, or somehow better than the non elected person. Someone in sin and rebellion would not accept God's invitation to accept Jesus. The elect has this removed for them of course just supernaturally.

There is no need to preach the word to the elect, they are chosen, and nobody can take them out of the fathers hand. This is a wishy washy version of election, I say we go full hard core here.

There is also no need for Jesus, if God picked you, it's all good.

We see the Election doctrine soften it's stance to some things as they certainly know they have to cover up some things.

to the non-elect ensures that they cannot claim at the Judgment that they never heard it.

The only Judgement God "REALLY" gives them is to tell them they where not chosen. It's nothing they did, God created them to suffer forever. At this point God would not lie to them before sending them off to a place most unimaginable, a place full of pain, and Horror. Hell. What a good God we serve..... and who can tell God what he can and can not do? Best answer.

Jesus is Lord.

 

[Miss Elly]

<< 1 Corinthians 3 >>
King James Version
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

I am not of St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Jonathan Edwards or any other so called theologian. I am of God who teaches me through his Holy Spirit how to follow after Jesus Christ his son. Of all the men that men have exalted over the course of history, I a weary as that which man greatly esteems is an abomination to God. This was said of the Pharisees who thought they knew it all.


<< 1 Corinthians 2 >>
King James Version
1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

I forgo the Mars Hill of Christianity and place my faith in the message of Jesus Christ and him crucified for the sins of the world, given unto them who believe and follow by picking up their own cross and denying themselves, thereby having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


Peace upon all those who love the Lord Jesus Christ,

Gary

Amen! Great answer! Totally agree.

 

[Miss Elly]

Sorry, but this predestined stuff is the most ridiculous stuff I have ever heard in my entire life. We are predestined because God knew who would accept Him and who wouldn't.

Jesus died for the entire world. And he told the disciples to preach the gospel to the world. Those that believe after hearing the gospel will be saved and those who do not will be damned.

 

[David777]

Yo John.

John, you are no doubt one of the elect, the chosen.

You proclaim TULIP, do you not.

A Black Stocking Calvinist would condemn you to Hell.
You understand nothing about the will of God.
God willed that Adam ate, you devils. It is all
God's Sovereign Will, from start to finish.

John would laugh this off, we do not believe this.
We believe that God's will was effected after the fall.
Black Stocking Calvinist were extremists. Ha, Ha.

Who do Calvinists oppose, the free will camp.
They are the real devils, do not be misled.
Calvin was involved in the execution of some
from the opposing group.

Armeniests (free will) executed Calvinists as well.

Are these theologies further subdivided,
Yes they are, there are 5 point Calvinists,
then 4 point Calvinists, and 3 point Calvinists.

Are the Armeniests broken down into groups
of course they are.

Christology, According to theologian Karl Rahner,
the purpose of modern Christology is to formulate
the Christian belief that "God became man and that
God-made-man is the individual Jesus Christ" in a manner
that this statement can be understood consistently,
without the confusions of past debates and mythologies.

What does David777 observe, a multitude of
theologies, who all believe they carry the truth.

What is truth in the end, certainly not the above.
Theology is the above. Theology creates divisions.
The exact opposite of unity in Christ.

Jesus Christ is the Truth and in Him there is no darkness.

 

[John Zain]

Miscellaneous:
-- Have I mentioned that two people (whose word I trust) told me that they have tried,
but just cannot believe the gospel.
-- The Bible says man (prior to the fall) was created in the image of God.

Now, if we believe in predestination/election,
we really need to understand God’s purpose for preaching the gospel.
Let’s delve into this a little bit ...

God’s Plan of Salvation was an absolutely necessary plan.
He sent the Messiah to die for the sins of mankind (in our case, the elect).
So, He gives the necessary grace-faith GIFT to the elect so they can believe.
Then He can say, “See, My people believe in what I did for them.”

To the non-elect, it will be obvious to them eventually that they didn’t pass the test.
But, election is kept a secret … so the non-elect don’t realize that the game is rigged.
And God has every right to rig any game that He desires to rig.

Sorry, but this is all of the delving that I have energy for right now.

 

[gdemoss]

Galatians 1:
15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace,
16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles,
I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood,
17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me;
but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.
18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days.
19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.
20 (Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie.)
21 Afterward I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia.
22 And I was unknown by face to the churches of Judea which were in Christ.

Galatians 2:
1 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me.
2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles,
but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.

John, Galatians 2 is referring to the Acts 15 trip to Jerusalem to straighten out the whole gentiles and the law mess that was happening. By this time Paul had already established his ministry by planting churches. It is my understanding that Jesus trained Paul by revelation for approximately 3 years before he began his public ministry of gentile church planting. It was after this 3 year period that Paul spent his 15 days with Peter and the Lords brother James before taking off on his ministry to the gentiles. If by chance I am missing something, please let me know.

In Christ,

Gary

 

[eddieb]

this is why i stay far away from theology and doctirines. in reality, it dosent mater if you are right. God is right. and if His spirit is in you and you walk in the spirit, then you will produce fruit. knowing Him is paramount.

i have listened to doctorines and seen first hand where one is false and how it affected a lot of my beliefs. but by knowing Him and praying "God please teach me truth, if you dont then i will never know it, and i dont know what is true from a man's mouth" He was able to shed me of all that. by knowing Him i have been set free from bondages, some more than once. by knowing Him i am able to be a better person twards others by bearing fruit. By knowing Him i am able to hold my tounge when i, before, would want to do bodily harm. By knowing Him i have become a vessel that Christ can live thru. and yet i am nothing without Him.
this, i think, is whats important.

 

[David777]

Well done eddieb.

Your post is not theology, it is scripture in practice.

Jesus Christ is the Way the Truth and the Life.

We are sanctified by the Holy Spirit, washed clean.

This is not from us, it is all through Jesus Christ.

 

[John Zain]

I would like to amend this section of the original post ...

The natural (unsaved) man
-- is born with a sin nature and is totally separated from God.
-- is at enmity with God, which means he is an enemy of God.
-- is owed absolutely nothing, nada, zero, etc. by the totally Holy God.
-- insists on following his fallen nature and naturally chooses this over following God.
-- has been blinded to spiritual truth by Satan (which God has allowed):
“But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
whose minds the god of this age (Satan) has blinded, who do not believe,
lest the light of the gospel … should shine on them.” (2 Cor.4:4)
-- naturally considers the gospel to be foolishness:
“For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing” (1 Cor.1:18)
-- exercises his free will and miraculously all of a sudden chooses Jesus and his gospel ???

 

[John Zain]

If by chance I am missing something, please let me know.

Yes, Gary, you're missing the whole purpose of the thread.
Please get with the program ... and give us your valuable insight on it.
We would truly like to know if you have some revelation about it.

 

[Brother Mike]

ummm.

Yes, Gary, you're missing the whole purpose of the thread.
Please get with the program ... and give us your valuable insight on it.
We would truly like to know if you have some revelation about it.

Get with the Program? He has posted some very well studied scriptures on this forum. Agreeing with him or not does not diminish his Love for the Word, and study efforts.

and who is We?


I have a few Questions.

To the non-elect, it will be obvious to them eventually that they didn’t pass the test.

Pass what Test? If someone is not given the opportunity and Answers, with the ability to understand the questions, there is no test.

But, election is kept a secret … so the non-elect don’t realize that the game is rigged.

I need a scripture that states the plan of salvation is rigged, and that the plan of salvation is just a game. It's not a game to me.

Rule 7 of the forum:
Provide Scripture when making a biblical point

scripture that salvation is just a game.
Scripture that Salvation is rigged.

And God has every right to rig any game that He desires to rig.

Rig would mean to favor one over another. I can post many scriptures that God is no respecter of person. God said this was sin.

Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Should I Change this to say God's Elect? Seeing how God might have forgotten to add that on the end?

Jesus Is Lord.