Check out the Augustinian View of Predestination
- Thread starter John Zain
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There is a very fine line when it comes to interpreting motive behind words that have been said over a forum, but as I read these words of yours, I cannot see them any other way than rude.
As it is written, "Take heed to yourselves: If your brother trespass against you, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him."
I wrote the text you quoted as an open ended statement regarding the timeline of Paul's ministry, which was part of this thread that you added. I stated the proper timeline for his ministry, showing that he didn't wait 17 years as you supposed he did to start his ministry, but I made sure to leave it open in case I missed something regarding it and needed to be corrected.
In Jesus Name,
Gary
Hello will.
Funny boy will, in light of the sinful nature and man's inability
to choose Christ. No sir, this is not a choice, without the influence
of the Holy Spirit no one could make the choice for Jesus.
There is no free-will involved.
Does that help will.
Funny boy will, in light of the sinful nature and man's inability
to choose Christ. No sir, this is not a choice, without the influence
of the Holy Spirit no one could make the choice for Jesus.
There is no free-will involved.
Does that help will.
Brother Mike
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The World of sin.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
David777
They did get the same treatment as the rest. They choose to not believe.
Could we have the scripture where the Holy Spirit did not give them a free will to choose, or believe, after they where reproved? I have many more if you need.
Many.
Jesus Is Lord.
Joh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
David777
According to Jesus, the Holy Spirit Reproved everyone, Those that did not believe (Their own choice) then of Sin.
They did get the same treatment as the rest. They choose to not believe.
Could we have the scripture where the Holy Spirit did not give them a free will to choose, or believe, after they where reproved? I have many more if you need.
Many.
Jesus Is Lord.
Dead men do not make choices.
Hello Mike, in answer to your request.
I am claiming that a person cannot choose God without the
Holy Spirit's intervention. Thus, free-will is not a factor, there
is no choice to make. God must act first. Faith itself is a gift.
No one can be drawn to Christ without the conviction
of the Holy Spirit. Sanctification is impossible
without the Holy Spirit's guidance.
John 16
7 Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 about sin, because people do not believe in me;
10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.
He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.
15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live,
but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh
I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.
What choices does a dead man make? Tell me Mike?
John 15:16
<sup>
</sup>You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that
you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever
you ask in my name the Father will give you.
Who chose who?
Please provide the scriptures for the free will choice of/for Jesus
without God's power at work.
Hello Mike, in answer to your request.
I am claiming that a person cannot choose God without the
Holy Spirit's intervention. Thus, free-will is not a factor, there
is no choice to make. God must act first. Faith itself is a gift.
No one can be drawn to Christ without the conviction
of the Holy Spirit. Sanctification is impossible
without the Holy Spirit's guidance.
John 16
7 Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
8 When he comes, he will prove the world to be in the wrong about sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 about sin, because people do not believe in me;
10 about righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;
11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.
13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.
He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.
15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live,
but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh
I live by faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave himself for me.
What choices does a dead man make? Tell me Mike?
John 15:16
<sup>
</sup>You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that
you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever
you ask in my name the Father will give you.
Who chose who?
Please provide the scriptures for the free will choice of/for Jesus
without God's power at work.
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Brother Mike
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Thank you David.
David777
That is not the point I was trying to make.
Yes, Jesus choose the disciples, and he also called some today to be Apostles, Prophets, and so on. There would be no question that God does not have a plan for people.
The real question is, are some created without a plan?
Free will is never effected here. Free will is not even in the equation.
I go to the store and see a new fruit I have never seen, I can choose to buy the fruit, or not buy the fruit.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
The condition to being able to believe is to Hear God call to them, or The word, which is God. That is the condition. They can accept, or not.
Those that have ears to hear, will accept.
Many not being in the place to accept the first time they heard, and I may not have purchased that fruit the first time I saw it.
To say that God had to open their ears to hear God (The Word) is to say God's Word is not God, nor of any effect to change the heart and thinking of man.
Jesus Is Lord.
David777
There is no choice, without knowing of one, and hence no scripture.
That is not the point I was trying to make.
Yes, Jesus choose the disciples, and he also called some today to be Apostles, Prophets, and so on. There would be no question that God does not have a plan for people.
The real question is, are some created without a plan?
Free will is never effected here. Free will is not even in the equation.
I go to the store and see a new fruit I have never seen, I can choose to buy the fruit, or not buy the fruit.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
The condition to being able to believe is to Hear God call to them, or The word, which is God. That is the condition. They can accept, or not.
Those that have ears to hear, will accept.
Many not being in the place to accept the first time they heard, and I may not have purchased that fruit the first time I saw it.
To say that God had to open their ears to hear God (The Word) is to say God's Word is not God, nor of any effect to change the heart and thinking of man.
Jesus Is Lord.
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Didn't God arbitrarily favor Israel over all of the other nations?
And there are many other examples of God showing His favor.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Can man exercise his free will and miraculously all of a sudden choose Jesus and His gospel ???
The word makes it clear that ...</SPAN>
man is incapable of doing this on his own ... so, God must do it for him.
For me, this is Paul's clearest message about HOW man is SAVED...
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works (anything you do), lest anyone should boast.” (Eph. 2:8-9)
(This is from the NKJV ... please check all of the other versions you wish.)
Translation ...
The faith to believe is a gift from God, which is by God's grace (undeserved favor).
.
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Brother Mike
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Election Doctrine.
Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
God loved us first, and it's very clear that those that love him, or honor him he honors.
Does God pick who does what, or who goes where? Yes, for who can say I want to be this, when Called called you that?
God picked Israel because of the man he found to have faith.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
God kept his covenant with Abraham forever. The scriptures say that Abraham Believed God.
what would have happened if Abraham Choose not to Believe God?
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Chosen who? A plan already in place, before the foundation of the World, a Predestined plan. For who?
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
A plan for the Sheep, not individual people.
What makes a sheep.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
He that believes........................................ That makes a sheep.
How can they believe? How can they choose?
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
How does God draw, call, give faith to a man. What might God use?
How would one go from Goat, to Sheep? How do they get delivered?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Psa 107:20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions. Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
The condition to believe God, one must hear God.Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
I will say this again, since it was ignored.
To say that God had to open their ears to hear God or God picked and Choose the ones that would, and ones that would not. God being (The Word)
Is to say God's Word is not God, nor of any effect to change the heart and thinking of man.
Making the Word of God powerless, and not God, and having no effect, or accomplishing anything God sent his Word to.
Now those scriptures where salvation is just a game, and that the game is rigged Please.
Jesus Is Lord.
Deu 7:9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
God loved us first, and it's very clear that those that love him, or honor him he honors.
Does God pick who does what, or who goes where? Yes, for who can say I want to be this, when Called called you that?
God picked Israel because of the man he found to have faith.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
God kept his covenant with Abraham forever. The scriptures say that Abraham Believed God.
what would have happened if Abraham Choose not to Believe God?
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Chosen who? A plan already in place, before the foundation of the World, a Predestined plan. For who?
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
A plan for the Sheep, not individual people.
What makes a sheep.
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
He that believes........................................ That makes a sheep.
How can they believe? How can they choose?
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
How does God draw, call, give faith to a man. What might God use?
How would one go from Goat, to Sheep? How do they get delivered?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Psa 107:20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions. Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
The condition to believe God, one must hear God.Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
I will say this again, since it was ignored.
To say that God had to open their ears to hear God or God picked and Choose the ones that would, and ones that would not. God being (The Word)
Is to say God's Word is not God, nor of any effect to change the heart and thinking of man.
Making the Word of God powerless, and not God, and having no effect, or accomplishing anything God sent his Word to.
Now those scriptures where salvation is just a game, and that the game is rigged Please.
Jesus Is Lord.
You said:
Without the influence of the Holy Spirit, no one could make the choice for Jesus.
Make the choice, your words not mine.
How can making a choice escape free-will?
By the way, I see this again and again, even in explaining the belief that there is no free-will, one cannot escape phrases that indicate otherwise.
The Holy Spirit convicts unbeliever's heart through the preaching of the Words of God. There is no verse in the Scriptures that proceeds to state that The Holy Spirit change the will of the then unbeliever to become a believer.
As can be seen when Peter, through the Holy Spirit, preached his sermon in Acts or Stephen as well in his defense though the Holy Spirit ended up stoned.
Amen.
Gary
El Hombre viejo
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I put my comment in bold and underlined right in the original. Easier to answer that way sometimes.
The natural (unsaved) man
-- is born with a sin nature and is totally separated from God.
-- is at enmity with God, which means he is an enemy of God.
-- is owed absolutely nothing, nada, zero, etc. by the totally Holy God.
-- insists on following his fallen nature and naturally chooses this over following God.
-- considers the gospel to be foolishness:
“For the message of the cross (the gospel) is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved (through sanctification) it is the power of God.” 1 Cor. 1:18
We are not saved by sanctification. We are saved by the GRACE of GOD!!
Ephesians 2:7-9 (King James Version)
<sup>7</sup>That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
<sup>8</sup>For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
<sup>9</sup>Not of works, lest any man should boast.
-- exercises his free will and miraculously all of a sudden chooses Jesus and his gospel ???
John 6:44 (King James Version)
<sup>44</sup>No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The free-will verses
“All”, “whoever”, “everyone who” believes … can be viewed as referring only to God’s elect.
In the OT, God proves that natural unsaved man cannot (or is not willing to) obey God, etc.
God chose His special people group to represent the human race, and they failed miserably.
GOD chose the Jews because JESUS had to come through some line and the Jews were the smallest people (in number). The Jews were not to represent man, but they were to be GODs priests, missionaries.
I can’t find scripture for this, but knowing GOD, that would be the way HE planned it.
Go ahead and “choose this day to believe and follow God”. If you are able to do this, super.
This is why He promised to institute His new/better covenant with His Messiah-Redeemer-Savior.
In the NT, those who believe have miraculously been given the necessary faith to believe.
GOD has given EVERY man the same measure of faith.
Romans 12:2-3 (King James Version)
<sup>2</sup>And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
<sup>3</sup>For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Titus 2:10-14 (King James Version)
<sup>10</sup>Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
<sup>11</sup>For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
<sup>12</sup>Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
<sup>13</sup>Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
<sup>14</sup>Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Saving FAITH is a GIFT from God by His GRACE
Paul was privately trained by the Lord for 17 years Gal. 1:18, 2:1 prior to starting his ministry.
“For by grace (undeserved favor) you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works (anything you do), lest anyone should boast.” Eph. 2:8-9
Natural sin-laden, rebellious, etc. man is simply NOT capable of coming up with his own saving faith.
That’s why God gave each man a measure of faith. The same amount.
Romans 12:2-3 (King James Version)
<sup>2</sup>And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
<sup>3</sup>For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
God has the right to do whatever He desires (whether you like it or not)
In Romans 9:9-24, Paul explains:
-- God chose Jacob over Esau before they were born (i.e. before they had done any good or evil).
-- The choice did not depend on any of God’s foreknowledge (knowledge of the future).
Excuse me? You can back this claim with scripture?
-- The choice did not depend on the 2 twins: “not of works (anything they did) but of Him who calls”.
-- The choice was strictly: “that the purpose of God according to election might stand”.
-- God has mercy and compassion on whom He chooses.
-- Who is chosen does not depend on man who desires it, works for it, etc.
-- Who is chosen only depends on God who shows mercy to certain ones.
This claims that GOD has favorites or prefers one man over another.
Acts 10:33-35 (King James Version)
<sup>33</sup>Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
<sup>34</sup>Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
<sup>35</sup>But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Galatians 2:3-9 (King James Version)
<sup>3</sup>But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
<sup>4</sup>And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
<sup>5</sup>To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
<sup>6</sup>But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person
for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:
<sup>7</sup>But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
<sup>8</sup>(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
<sup>9</sup>And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Titus 2:10-14 (King James Version)
<sup>10</sup>Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
<sup>11</sup>For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
<sup>12</sup>Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
<sup>13</sup>Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
<sup>14</sup>Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
.
-- The analogy of the potter and the clay from Isaiah 29:16 and
-- God prepares vessels for honor and vessels for dishonor.
This is not what the Bible says. It says
2 Timothy 2:19-21 (King James Version)
<sup>19</sup>Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
<sup>20</sup>But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
<sup>21</sup>If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
-- God prepares vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.
This is totally out of context. The WORD does not say GOD makes some people vessels of dishonor or for destruction.
This verse Romans 9:15-25 was a ‘teaching’ session for the Romans. Read it.
-- God prepares vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory.
-- God called the Roman Christians to belong to this latter group.
The natural (unsaved) man
-- is born with a sin nature and is totally separated from God.
-- is at enmity with God, which means he is an enemy of God.
-- is owed absolutely nothing, nada, zero, etc. by the totally Holy God.
-- insists on following his fallen nature and naturally chooses this over following God.
-- considers the gospel to be foolishness:
“For the message of the cross (the gospel) is foolishness to those who are perishing,
but to us who are being saved (through sanctification) it is the power of God.” 1 Cor. 1:18
We are not saved by sanctification. We are saved by the GRACE of GOD!!
Ephesians 2:7-9 (King James Version)
<sup>7</sup>That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
<sup>8</sup>For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
<sup>9</sup>Not of works, lest any man should boast.
-- exercises his free will and miraculously all of a sudden chooses Jesus and his gospel ???
John 6:44 (King James Version)
<sup>44</sup>No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The free-will verses
“All”, “whoever”, “everyone who” believes … can be viewed as referring only to God’s elect.
In the OT, God proves that natural unsaved man cannot (or is not willing to) obey God, etc.
God chose His special people group to represent the human race, and they failed miserably.
GOD chose the Jews because JESUS had to come through some line and the Jews were the smallest people (in number). The Jews were not to represent man, but they were to be GODs priests, missionaries.
I can’t find scripture for this, but knowing GOD, that would be the way HE planned it.
Go ahead and “choose this day to believe and follow God”. If you are able to do this, super.
This is why He promised to institute His new/better covenant with His Messiah-Redeemer-Savior.
In the NT, those who believe have miraculously been given the necessary faith to believe.
GOD has given EVERY man the same measure of faith.
Romans 12:2-3 (King James Version)
<sup>2</sup>And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
<sup>3</sup>For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Titus 2:10-14 (King James Version)
<sup>10</sup>Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
<sup>11</sup>For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
<sup>12</sup>Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
<sup>13</sup>Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
<sup>14</sup>Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Saving FAITH is a GIFT from God by His GRACE
Paul was privately trained by the Lord for 17 years Gal. 1:18, 2:1 prior to starting his ministry.
“For by grace (undeserved favor) you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves;
it is the gift of God, not of works (anything you do), lest anyone should boast.” Eph. 2:8-9
Natural sin-laden, rebellious, etc. man is simply NOT capable of coming up with his own saving faith.
That’s why God gave each man a measure of faith. The same amount.
Romans 12:2-3 (King James Version)
<sup>2</sup>And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
<sup>3</sup>For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
God has the right to do whatever He desires (whether you like it or not)
In Romans 9:9-24, Paul explains:
-- God chose Jacob over Esau before they were born (i.e. before they had done any good or evil).
-- The choice did not depend on any of God’s foreknowledge (knowledge of the future).
Excuse me? You can back this claim with scripture?
-- The choice did not depend on the 2 twins: “not of works (anything they did) but of Him who calls”.
-- The choice was strictly: “that the purpose of God according to election might stand”.
-- God has mercy and compassion on whom He chooses.
-- Who is chosen does not depend on man who desires it, works for it, etc.
-- Who is chosen only depends on God who shows mercy to certain ones.
This claims that GOD has favorites or prefers one man over another.
Acts 10:33-35 (King James Version)
<sup>33</sup>Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
<sup>34</sup>Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
<sup>35</sup>But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Galatians 2:3-9 (King James Version)
<sup>3</sup>But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:
<sup>4</sup>And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
<sup>5</sup>To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
<sup>6</sup>But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person
for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: <sup>7</sup>But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
<sup>8</sup>(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
<sup>9</sup>And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Titus 2:10-14 (King James Version)
<sup>10</sup>Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
<sup>11</sup>For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
<sup>12</sup>Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
<sup>13</sup>Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
<sup>14</sup>Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
.
-- The analogy of the potter and the clay from Isaiah 29:16 and
-- God prepares vessels for honor and vessels for dishonor.
This is not what the Bible says. It says
2 Timothy 2:19-21 (King James Version)
<sup>19</sup>Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
<sup>20</sup>But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
<sup>21</sup>If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
-- God prepares vessels of wrath prepared for destruction.
This is totally out of context. The WORD does not say GOD makes some people vessels of dishonor or for destruction.
This verse Romans 9:15-25 was a ‘teaching’ session for the Romans. Read it.
-- God prepares vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory.
-- God called the Roman Christians to belong to this latter group.
El Hombre viejo
Member
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2010
- Messages
- 1,068
Part 2
God knows peoples’ hearts and who He wants to have in Heaven
Uh Yeah!! I know the kind of people I would like to have live with me too. People of like mind. People who love me. People who will respect my house. Etc. That’s what GOD is looking for.
“the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts” 1 Chr. 28:9
“I dwell in the high and holy place with him who has a contrite and humble spirit” Isaiah 57:15
A repentant heart is necessary: “… unless you repent you will all likewise perish” Luke 13:3,5
The poor (in various ways) are the most likely to have the right heart attitude:
“He (Father God) has anointed Me (Jesus) to preach the gospel to the poor” Luke 4:18
Yup The Gospel…the Good News. You don’t have to be poor anymore. You don’t have to be sick anymore….
Luke 4:15-19 (King James Version)
<sup>15</sup>And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
<sup>16</sup>And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
<sup>17</sup>And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
<sup>18</sup>The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
<sup>19</sup>To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
“Has God not chosen the poor to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom?” James 2:5
God predestines and chooses His elect
“God's elect ... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” 1 Pet. 1:1-2
Chosen because they were saved, not saved because they were chosen.
1 Peter 1 (Amplified Bible)
1 Peter 1
<sup>1</sup>PETER, AN apostle (a special messenger) of Jesus Christ, [writing] to the elect exiles of the dispersion scattered (sowed) abroad in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
<sup>2</sup>Who were chosen and foreknown by God the Father and consecrated (sanctified, made holy) by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and to be sprinkled with [His] blood: May grace (spiritual blessing) and peace be given you in increasing abundance [that spiritual peace to be <sup>[</sup><sup>a</sup><sup>]</sup>realized in and through Christ, <sup>[</sup><sup>b</sup><sup>]</sup>freedom from fears, agitating passions, and moral conflicts].
“He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world … having predestined us” Eph. 1:4-5 This man takes a single verse and builds a doctrine out of it. Paul was not saying that GOD would choose who HE would save. HE was saying what HE would do with the saved. What HE would do for them.
Ephesians 1 (Amplified Bible)
Ephesians 1
<sup>1</sup>PAUL, AN apostle (special messenger) of Christ Jesus (the Messiah), by the divine will (the purpose and the choice of God) to the saints (the consecrated, set-apart ones) <sup>[</sup><sup>a</sup><sup>]</sup>at Ephesus who are also faithful and loyal and steadfast in Christ Jesus:
<sup>2</sup>May grace (God's unmerited favor) and spiritual peace [which means peace with God and harmony, unity, and undisturbedness] be yours from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
<sup>3</sup>May blessing (praise, laudation, and eulogy) be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual (given by the Holy Spirit) blessing in the heavenly realm!
<sup>4</sup>Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love.
<sup>5</sup>For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [<sup>[</sup><sup>b</sup><sup>]</sup>because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]--
<sup>6</sup>[So that we might be] to the praise and the commendation of His glorious grace (favor and mercy), which He so freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
“And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed (in the gospel)” Acts 13:48
Again! Out of context. Were not the Jews called? Was it not the Jews here that refused? Those that chose to believe were the ones that rejoiced.
Now Read every reference to ‘chosen, predestined, appointed and you will see that using this one verse to show that GOD chose who HE would save is wrong. GOD is not willing that any should perish.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God’s guardian angels protect His people until they obtain salvation
“Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will (in the future) inherit salvation?” Hebrews 1:14
Wrong!! The angels are ministering spirits to GODs children. It’s the children of GOD who will inherit the Kingdom. Not the children of the world. Hebrews 1:13-14 (Amplified Bible)
<sup>13</sup>Besides, to which of the angels has He ever said, Sit at My right hand [associated with Me in My royal dignity] till I make your enemies a stool for your feet?<sup>(A)</sup>
<sup>14</sup>Are not the angels all ministering spirits (servants) sent out in the service [of God for the assistance] of those who are to inherit salvation?
salvation as the present possession of all true Christians
God does the choosing, not us
Wrong!
“All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me” John 6:37
John 6:34-37 (Amplified Bible)
<sup>34</sup>Then they said to Him, Lord, give us this bread always (all the time)!
<sup>35</sup>Jesus replied, I am the Bread of Life. He who comes to Me will never be hungry, and he who believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me will never thirst any more (at any time).
<sup>36</sup>But [as] I told you, although you have seen Me, still you do not believe and trust and have faith.
<sup>37</sup>All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, no never, reject one of them who comes to Me].
“No one can (has the ability to) come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” John 6:44
True
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you …” John 15:16
JESUS was not talking about HIM chosing us to be saved but us to go out and teach preach and minister.
John 15:11-24 (Amplified Bible)
<sup>11</sup>I have told you these things, that My joy and delight may be in you, and that your joy and gladness may be of full measure and complete and overflowing.
<sup>12</sup>This is My commandment: that you love one another [just] as I have loved you.
<sup>13</sup>No one has greater love [no one has shown stronger affection] than to lay down (give up) his own life for his friends.
<sup>14</sup>You are My friends if you keep on doing the things which I command you to do.
<sup>15</sup>I do not call you servants (slaves) any longer, for the servant does not know what his master is doing (working out). But I have called you My friends, because I have made known to you everything that I have heard from My Father. [I have revealed to you everything that I have learned from Him.]
<sup>16</sup>You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you and I have appointed you [I have planted you], that you might go and bear fruit and keep on bearing, and that your fruit may be lasting [that it may remain, abide], so that whatever you ask the Father in My Name [as <sup>[</sup><sup>a</sup><sup>]</sup>presenting all that I AM], He may give it to you.
<sup>17</sup>This is what I command you: that you love one another.
<sup>18</sup>If the world hates you, know that it hated Me before it hated you.
<sup>19</sup>If you belonged to the world, the world would treat you with affection and would love you as its own. But because you are not of the world [no longer one with it], but I have chosen (selected) you out of the world, the world hates (detests) you.
<sup>20</sup>Remember that I told you, A servant is not greater than his master [is not superior to him]. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word and obeyed My teachings, they will also keep and obey yours.
<sup>21</sup>But they will do all this to you [inflict all this suffering on you] because of [your bearing] My name and on My account, for they do not know or understand the One Who sent Me.
<sup>22</sup>If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin [would be blameless]; but now they have no excuse for their sin.
<sup>23</sup>Whoever hates Me also hates My Father.
<sup>24</sup>If I had not done (accomplished) among them the works which no one else ever did, they would not be guilty of sin. But [the fact is] now they have both seen [these works] and have hated both Me and My Father.
Man appears to have the freedom to choose
God’s plan of salvation: the sinless Messiah came to die on the cross for the sins of the elect,
and the elect must hear this gospel (good news), believe it, and believe-trust-obey- love Jesus.
The free-will verses encourage evangelists to take the gospel to the 4 corners of the earth.
The gospel must be presented to the elect before they can respond to it. And presenting it
to the non-elect ensures that they cannot claim at the Judgment that they never heard it.
The Augustinian view of predestination
Man is totally incapable of being saved on his own, but depends totally on God’s grace.
Man is not required to make any free-will choice to co-operate with God’s grace.
God’s choice of His elect has nothing at all to do with their choosing/believing the gospel.
All humans are destined to be separated from God, but God has chosen to grant mercy to some.
If you claim that God is not merciful enough (or, indeed, if you find any fault at all with God),
then you are committing blasphemy against God. So, it's best not to judgeGod.
This dissertation false teaching based on out of context verses and a total lack of understanding of the WORD.
If you do a little research on Augustine you will find he was a rabid Romanist. That alone will skew his doctrines. You cannot take a single verse and build a doctrine on it.
God knows peoples’ hearts and who He wants to have in Heaven
Uh Yeah!! I know the kind of people I would like to have live with me too. People of like mind. People who love me. People who will respect my house. Etc. That’s what GOD is looking for.
“the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts” 1 Chr. 28:9
“I dwell in the high and holy place with him who has a contrite and humble spirit” Isaiah 57:15
A repentant heart is necessary: “… unless you repent you will all likewise perish” Luke 13:3,5
The poor (in various ways) are the most likely to have the right heart attitude:
“He (Father God) has anointed Me (Jesus) to preach the gospel to the poor” Luke 4:18
Yup The Gospel…the Good News. You don’t have to be poor anymore. You don’t have to be sick anymore….
Luke 4:15-19 (King James Version)
<sup>15</sup>And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
<sup>16</sup>And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
<sup>17</sup>And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
<sup>18</sup>The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
<sup>19</sup>To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
“Has God not chosen the poor to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom?” James 2:5
God predestines and chooses His elect
“God's elect ... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father” 1 Pet. 1:1-2
Chosen because they were saved, not saved because they were chosen.
1 Peter 1 (Amplified Bible)
1 Peter 1
<sup>1</sup>PETER, AN apostle (a special messenger) of Jesus Christ, [writing] to the elect exiles of the dispersion scattered (sowed) abroad in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
<sup>2</sup>Who were chosen and foreknown by God the Father and consecrated (sanctified, made holy) by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and to be sprinkled with [His] blood: May grace (spiritual blessing) and peace be given you in increasing abundance [that spiritual peace to be <sup>[</sup><sup>a</sup><sup>]</sup>realized in and through Christ, <sup>[</sup><sup>b</sup><sup>]</sup>freedom from fears, agitating passions, and moral conflicts].
“He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world … having predestined us” Eph. 1:4-5 This man takes a single verse and builds a doctrine out of it. Paul was not saying that GOD would choose who HE would save. HE was saying what HE would do with the saved. What HE would do for them.
Ephesians 1 (Amplified Bible)
Ephesians 1
<sup>1</sup>PAUL, AN apostle (special messenger) of Christ Jesus (the Messiah), by the divine will (the purpose and the choice of God) to the saints (the consecrated, set-apart ones) <sup>[</sup><sup>a</sup><sup>]</sup>at Ephesus who are also faithful and loyal and steadfast in Christ Jesus:
<sup>2</sup>May grace (God's unmerited favor) and spiritual peace [which means peace with God and harmony, unity, and undisturbedness] be yours from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
<sup>3</sup>May blessing (praise, laudation, and eulogy) be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah) Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual (given by the Holy Spirit) blessing in the heavenly realm!
<sup>4</sup>Even as [in His love] He chose us [actually picked us out for Himself as His own] in Christ before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy (consecrated and set apart for Him) and blameless in His sight, even above reproach, before Him in love.
<sup>5</sup>For He foreordained us (destined us, planned in love for us) to be adopted (revealed) as His own children through Jesus Christ, in accordance with the purpose of His will [<sup>[</sup><sup>b</sup><sup>]</sup>because it pleased Him and was His kind intent]--
<sup>6</sup>[So that we might be] to the praise and the commendation of His glorious grace (favor and mercy), which He so freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.
“And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed (in the gospel)” Acts 13:48
Again! Out of context. Were not the Jews called? Was it not the Jews here that refused? Those that chose to believe were the ones that rejoiced.
Now Read every reference to ‘chosen, predestined, appointed and you will see that using this one verse to show that GOD chose who HE would save is wrong. GOD is not willing that any should perish.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
God’s guardian angels protect His people until they obtain salvation
“Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will (in the future) inherit salvation?” Hebrews 1:14
Wrong!! The angels are ministering spirits to GODs children. It’s the children of GOD who will inherit the Kingdom. Not the children of the world. Hebrews 1:13-14 (Amplified Bible)
<sup>13</sup>Besides, to which of the angels has He ever said, Sit at My right hand [associated with Me in My royal dignity] till I make your enemies a stool for your feet?<sup>(A)</sup>
<sup>14</sup>Are not the angels all ministering spirits (servants) sent out in the service [of God for the assistance] of those who are to inherit salvation?
salvation as the present possession of all true Christians
God does the choosing, not us
Wrong!
“All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me” John 6:37
John 6:34-37 (Amplified Bible)
<sup>34</sup>Then they said to Him, Lord, give us this bread always (all the time)!
<sup>35</sup>Jesus replied, I am the Bread of Life. He who comes to Me will never be hungry, and he who believes in and cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me will never thirst any more (at any time).
<sup>36</sup>But [as] I told you, although you have seen Me, still you do not believe and trust and have faith.
<sup>37</sup>All whom My Father gives (entrusts) to Me will come to Me; and the one who comes to Me I will most certainly not cast out [I will never, no never, reject one of them who comes to Me].
“No one can (has the ability to) come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” John 6:44
True
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you …” John 15:16
JESUS was not talking about HIM chosing us to be saved but us to go out and teach preach and minister.
John 15:11-24 (Amplified Bible)
<sup>11</sup>I have told you these things, that My joy and delight may be in you, and that your joy and gladness may be of full measure and complete and overflowing.
<sup>12</sup>This is My commandment: that you love one another [just] as I have loved you.
<sup>13</sup>No one has greater love [no one has shown stronger affection] than to lay down (give up) his own life for his friends.
<sup>14</sup>You are My friends if you keep on doing the things which I command you to do.
<sup>15</sup>I do not call you servants (slaves) any longer, for the servant does not know what his master is doing (working out). But I have called you My friends, because I have made known to you everything that I have heard from My Father. [I have revealed to you everything that I have learned from Him.]
<sup>16</sup>You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you and I have appointed you [I have planted you], that you might go and bear fruit and keep on bearing, and that your fruit may be lasting [that it may remain, abide], so that whatever you ask the Father in My Name [as <sup>[</sup><sup>a</sup><sup>]</sup>presenting all that I AM], He may give it to you.
<sup>17</sup>This is what I command you: that you love one another.
<sup>18</sup>If the world hates you, know that it hated Me before it hated you.
<sup>19</sup>If you belonged to the world, the world would treat you with affection and would love you as its own. But because you are not of the world [no longer one with it], but I have chosen (selected) you out of the world, the world hates (detests) you.
<sup>20</sup>Remember that I told you, A servant is not greater than his master [is not superior to him]. If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word and obeyed My teachings, they will also keep and obey yours.
<sup>21</sup>But they will do all this to you [inflict all this suffering on you] because of [your bearing] My name and on My account, for they do not know or understand the One Who sent Me.
<sup>22</sup>If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin [would be blameless]; but now they have no excuse for their sin.
<sup>23</sup>Whoever hates Me also hates My Father.
<sup>24</sup>If I had not done (accomplished) among them the works which no one else ever did, they would not be guilty of sin. But [the fact is] now they have both seen [these works] and have hated both Me and My Father.
Man appears to have the freedom to choose
God’s plan of salvation: the sinless Messiah came to die on the cross for the sins of the elect,
and the elect must hear this gospel (good news), believe it, and believe-trust-obey- love Jesus.
The free-will verses encourage evangelists to take the gospel to the 4 corners of the earth.
The gospel must be presented to the elect before they can respond to it. And presenting it
to the non-elect ensures that they cannot claim at the Judgment that they never heard it.
The Augustinian view of predestination
Man is totally incapable of being saved on his own, but depends totally on God’s grace.
Man is not required to make any free-will choice to co-operate with God’s grace.
God’s choice of His elect has nothing at all to do with their choosing/believing the gospel.
All humans are destined to be separated from God, but God has chosen to grant mercy to some.
If you claim that God is not merciful enough (or, indeed, if you find any fault at all with God),
then you are committing blasphemy against God. So, it's best not to judgeGod.
This dissertation false teaching based on out of context verses and a total lack of understanding of the WORD.
If you do a little research on Augustine you will find he was a rabid Romanist. That alone will skew his doctrines. You cannot take a single verse and build a doctrine on it.
Brother Mike
Member
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2008
- Messages
- 1,335
it's not a game.
El Hombre viejo
Well, I am still Waiting on John Zain to kindly show me His Election Doctrine scripture that Salvation is a (Rigged) game, I have not run across that translation and would like to obtain a copy.
And............ I was not really wanting to get involved, until I saw some prideful remarks, then I saw that the plan of salvation is just game that God Rigged.
That pretty much settles it for me about this "Election Doctrine" What I believe certainly does not think Salvation is some Game. Just like Myth Busters the Election Doctrine by it's own Hanging is.
BUSTED!!
Jesus Is Lord.
El Hombre viejo
Well, I am still Waiting on John Zain to kindly show me His Election Doctrine scripture that Salvation is a (Rigged) game, I have not run across that translation and would like to obtain a copy.
And............ I was not really wanting to get involved, until I saw some prideful remarks, then I saw that the plan of salvation is just game that God Rigged.
That pretty much settles it for me about this "Election Doctrine" What I believe certainly does not think Salvation is some Game. Just like Myth Busters the Election Doctrine by it's own Hanging is.
BUSTED!!
Jesus Is Lord.
El Hombre viejo
Member
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2010
- Messages
- 1,068
Hello all.
Look, I am too impatient, here is one of the famous verses used in the theology of determinism. Thank me later John.
Romans 8:29-30 (NKJV)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Context is vitally important, what is Paul discussing! Revealing!
Release the hounds.
Look, I am too impatient, here is one of the famous verses used in the theology of determinism. Thank me later John.
Romans 8:29-30 (NKJV)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
Context is vitally important, what is Paul discussing! Revealing!
Release the hounds.
Dear will.
Will I will put more effort into my post so that you will understand more fully what I am saying.
The definition of Free Will:
The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances
or by an agency such as fate or divine will. I must add the Holy Spirit as this is a secular definition.
The definition alone should answer your question.
If not I can supply further in formation.
Always happy to be of assistance.
Will I will put more effort into my post so that you will understand more fully what I am saying.
The definition of Free Will:
The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances
or by an agency such as fate or divine will. I must add the Holy Spirit as this is a secular definition.
The definition alone should answer your question.
If not I can supply further in formation.
Always happy to be of assistance.
Brother Mike
Member
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2008
- Messages
- 1,335
We have already seen.
David777:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Jesus was the firstborn)
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Thank you for the scriptures David777, your explanation of them would have been helpful but being impatient I can fully understand.
Truly I suppose that should explain everything about man not having a free will, despite the hundreds of examples that prove otherwise.
Rom 8:29 clearly is speaking of Jesus who was here with God at the start, and Jesus was the firstborn among many of us..
Jesus Our brother:
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Heb 2:17
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate,...........
Predestinate: To decide beforehand.
Certainly the disciples where determined beforehand, King Saul was chosen though he failed. Certainly anyone that God chooses to do something is Predestinated, just like Mary. This is no indication of not having a free will.
them he also called, Chosen.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: The beginning of what? We can assume birth.There are many cases of God choosing someone and working with someone. The Apostles where definitely Chosen.
How does God choose? He tells us.
2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Every single Christian is Chosen, and has a plan. Being a functioning body part. I already posted on how that happens. (No response yet of course)
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
What happens if God calls someone, chooses them, do they have a choice?
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Yes, they have a choice to not answer, and not be chosen.
---------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion:God certainly has marked many from birth to do something for him. That is very evident in scripture. God certainly chosen the 12 disciples, and gave charge to some to even add to the mighty Word of God. There are Apostles today, but not in the class of the 12 original. God certainly Called Mary to have Jesus.
Anyone who is in the Body of Christ has a call and function as it pleases God. (See scripture above)
We also have scripture where God called some, and it ends in failure. Why? Free choice. God Called Saul a King, and even Gave the Holy Spirit of Prophecy to King Saul, the anointing. We see Later God tell us he wishes (Repents) of ever making Saul King. That's not God's fault, That is King Saul exercising his free will of disobedience.
We see by Romans chapter 8 that God called many, and justified many unto Glory. We also see that Being Called with a plan does not mean you get picked or chosen because you have disqualify yourself. There is no remote trace of not being able to have free will. (well, God did some things, but I'll save the scripture for later.)
We see in Matt 22:2 concerning the doctrine of salvation or going to Heaven.
Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto............... The servants went out to call those that were chosen, they bidden them to come, but each under their free will chose to do something different and did not Go, even though God did call them.
Jesus finished it with saying........Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
If man has the ability to decline God's Calling and invitation, Man certainly has the ability to accept once he hears the Word and good news. Or hear God himself (The Word) call them through the preaching of the anointed man/women of God with the Word of life and spirit.
The Elect.
If you not the so called elect, you certainly can be as one. Elect means chosen.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Not the Elect? Just put it on as the elect.
Israel God's Elect.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Those who are brothers and sisters in Christ are God's Elected.
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
Still waiting on the scriptures of why this "Election" doctrine thinks Salvation is just a game that is rigged.
Jesus Is Lord.
David777:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Jesus was the firstborn)
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Thank you for the scriptures David777, your explanation of them would have been helpful but being impatient I can fully understand.
Truly I suppose that should explain everything about man not having a free will, despite the hundreds of examples that prove otherwise.
Rom 8:29 clearly is speaking of Jesus who was here with God at the start, and Jesus was the firstborn among many of us..
Jesus Our brother:
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Heb 2:17
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate,...........
Predestinate: To decide beforehand.
Certainly the disciples where determined beforehand, King Saul was chosen though he failed. Certainly anyone that God chooses to do something is Predestinated, just like Mary. This is no indication of not having a free will.
them he also called, Chosen.
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: The beginning of what? We can assume birth.There are many cases of God choosing someone and working with someone. The Apostles where definitely Chosen.
How does God choose? He tells us.
2Ch 16:9 For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to shew himself strong in the behalf of them whose heart is perfect toward him. Herein thou hast done foolishly: therefore from henceforth thou shalt have wars.
Jer 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.
Every single Christian is Chosen, and has a plan. Being a functioning body part. I already posted on how that happens. (No response yet of course)
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
What happens if God calls someone, chooses them, do they have a choice?
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Yes, they have a choice to not answer, and not be chosen.
---------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion:God certainly has marked many from birth to do something for him. That is very evident in scripture. God certainly chosen the 12 disciples, and gave charge to some to even add to the mighty Word of God. There are Apostles today, but not in the class of the 12 original. God certainly Called Mary to have Jesus.
Anyone who is in the Body of Christ has a call and function as it pleases God. (See scripture above)
We also have scripture where God called some, and it ends in failure. Why? Free choice. God Called Saul a King, and even Gave the Holy Spirit of Prophecy to King Saul, the anointing. We see Later God tell us he wishes (Repents) of ever making Saul King. That's not God's fault, That is King Saul exercising his free will of disobedience.
We see by Romans chapter 8 that God called many, and justified many unto Glory. We also see that Being Called with a plan does not mean you get picked or chosen because you have disqualify yourself. There is no remote trace of not being able to have free will. (well, God did some things, but I'll save the scripture for later.)
We see in Matt 22:2 concerning the doctrine of salvation or going to Heaven.
Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto............... The servants went out to call those that were chosen, they bidden them to come, but each under their free will chose to do something different and did not Go, even though God did call them.
Jesus finished it with saying........Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
If man has the ability to decline God's Calling and invitation, Man certainly has the ability to accept once he hears the Word and good news. Or hear God himself (The Word) call them through the preaching of the anointed man/women of God with the Word of life and spirit.
The Elect.
If you not the so called elect, you certainly can be as one. Elect means chosen.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Not the Elect? Just put it on as the elect.
Israel God's Elect.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Those who are brothers and sisters in Christ are God's Elected.
1Th 1:4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
Still waiting on the scriptures of why this "Election" doctrine thinks Salvation is just a game that is rigged.
Jesus Is Lord.
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Sorry for the delay Mike.
I tried to be as brief as possible, please read it carefully.
In order to be precise in our understanding of Romans 8:29-30
it helps to understand the context. What is Paul discussing in the previous and following chapters, this allows us to better understand Romans ch 8.Then, we also need the meaning of the verb "foreknew" and the pronoun "them".
Let's have a look then at the context of Romans chapter 8.
- Preceding Chapters 5-8, the Life in Christ.
- Following Chapters 9-11, God’s Relationship with Israel.
Now, let's concentrate on the purpose of Romans chapters 9-11.
It is in these chapters 9-11 that the true meaning of Romans 8:29-30
will become apparent. Romans 9-11 can be summed up by two verses in Romans chapter 11:1-2
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
Paul is discussing the fact that the Jews were not rejected in God's plan of salvation.
Not only do these verses sum up Romans 9-11, it surprisingly gives us the usage by Paul of the word "foreknew" at the same time. Here foreknew has only one meaning, personal, those God had previously known, the Jews.
Let's consult Strong's concordance for the meaning of "foreknew"
and "them".
Foreknew from the Greek - Proginosko, meaning: To know before.
The pronoun "them": Used as the object of a verb or preposition to refer to two or more people. This means a group not a person, this is vital.
So lets insert the personal meaning, Romans 11:2 "God has not cast away the Jews whom He knew before."
This provides a powerful insight to the true meaning of Romans 8:29-30.
Now three possible interpretations with appropriate substitutions:
1) For whom He knew before, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, (The Jews) He also called; whom He called, (The Jews) He also justified; and whom He justified, (The Jews) He also glorified.
2) For whom He knew before, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, (The Jews + Gentiles) He also called; whom He called, (The Jews + Gentiles) He also justified; and whom He justified, (The Jews + Gentiles) He also glorified.
3) For whom He knew before, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, (The Gentiles) He also called; whom He called, (The Gentiles) He also justified; and whom He justified, (The Gentiles) He also glorified.
I repeat that the verses are referring to a group not an individual.
I tried to be as brief as possible, please read it carefully.
In order to be precise in our understanding of Romans 8:29-30
it helps to understand the context. What is Paul discussing in the previous and following chapters, this allows us to better understand Romans ch 8.Then, we also need the meaning of the verb "foreknew" and the pronoun "them".
Let's have a look then at the context of Romans chapter 8.
- Preceding Chapters 5-8, the Life in Christ.
- Following Chapters 9-11, God’s Relationship with Israel.
Now, let's concentrate on the purpose of Romans chapters 9-11.
It is in these chapters 9-11 that the true meaning of Romans 8:29-30
will become apparent. Romans 9-11 can be summed up by two verses in Romans chapter 11:1-2
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.
Paul is discussing the fact that the Jews were not rejected in God's plan of salvation.
Not only do these verses sum up Romans 9-11, it surprisingly gives us the usage by Paul of the word "foreknew" at the same time. Here foreknew has only one meaning, personal, those God had previously known, the Jews.
Let's consult Strong's concordance for the meaning of "foreknew"
and "them".
Foreknew from the Greek - Proginosko, meaning: To know before.
The pronoun "them": Used as the object of a verb or preposition to refer to two or more people. This means a group not a person, this is vital.
So lets insert the personal meaning, Romans 11:2 "God has not cast away the Jews whom He knew before."
This provides a powerful insight to the true meaning of Romans 8:29-30.
Now three possible interpretations with appropriate substitutions:
1) For whom He knew before, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, (The Jews) He also called; whom He called, (The Jews) He also justified; and whom He justified, (The Jews) He also glorified.
2) For whom He knew before, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, (The Jews + Gentiles) He also called; whom He called, (The Jews + Gentiles) He also justified; and whom He justified, (The Jews + Gentiles) He also glorified.
3) For whom He knew before, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, (The Gentiles) He also called; whom He called, (The Gentiles) He also justified; and whom He justified, (The Gentiles) He also glorified.
I repeat that the verses are referring to a group not an individual.
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Further.
There is no choice but to see Christ as predestined from eternity.
For the reconciliation of mankind to God.
An individual is not predestined to salvation.
This is obvious from my previous post.
God has announced that all Jews and Gentiles can access
salvation through Jesus Christ.
Why did God do this, because He loves us all.
God has no favorites.
Acts 10:34-36
Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does
not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him
and do what is right. You know the message God sent to the people
of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who ...
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish
but that all should come to repentance.
There is no choice but to see Christ as predestined from eternity.
For the reconciliation of mankind to God.
An individual is not predestined to salvation.
This is obvious from my previous post.
God has announced that all Jews and Gentiles can access
salvation through Jesus Christ.
Why did God do this, because He loves us all.
God has no favorites.
Acts 10:34-36
Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does
not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him
and do what is right. You know the message God sent to the people
of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who ...
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish
but that all should come to repentance.
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More....
Does anyone believe for one moment that our beautiful Jesus.
Would lay down His life not for creation but for a small select group.
This is not Love, this is not kind, this is not scriptural.
A studious devotion to the scriptures guided by the Holy Spirit
and not by a theology. Is the scriptural way to read.
Any theology that distorts the simplicity of God's revelation
is to be rejected.
All for one and one for all.
Does anyone believe for one moment that our beautiful Jesus.
Would lay down His life not for creation but for a small select group.
This is not Love, this is not kind, this is not scriptural.
A studious devotion to the scriptures guided by the Holy Spirit
and not by a theology. Is the scriptural way to read.
Any theology that distorts the simplicity of God's revelation
is to be rejected.
All for one and one for all.
