Check out the Augustinian View of Predestination

[Brother Mike]

I got some things in order.

David777:

Now, let's concentrate on the purpose of Romans chapters 9-11.

It is in these chapters 9-11 that the true meaning of Romans 8:29-30
will become apparent. Romans 9-11 can be summed up by two verses in Romans chapter 11:1-2

I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.

Paul is discussing the fact that the Jews were not rejected in God's plan of salvation.

Thank you David777, those that do not hold this idea that God just picks some to go to hell, and picks some to not go to hell know that everything you studied and posted to be true about Israel being God's Predestined, and elect. Their God's People and God's promise to Abraham for an everlasting Covenant. (We won't hash over the word Everlasting in what that really means.)

This was a pretty awesome post !!! and laid out in a easy to understand format with no question the scripture means what it means, being explained and expound upon as a teacher of God not throwing confusion in the mix or blatantly Ignoring hundreds of other scriptures. I read over your teaching here several times.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[John Zain]

Romans 8 (NKJV)
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,
to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called,
these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Yes, everyone knows this verse. But, what bothers me is the "foreknew".
It gives the Armenian an excuse to say, "See, God elects because of what He sees us do and say, etc.".

But, while I'm here, I'd like to share WHY ARMENIANS HAVE MORE FAITH THAN CALVINISTS.

(This is also why some people say that Armenians have a “double blessing” of FAITH.)

With their free will, they drum up enough FAITH to miraculously choose Jesus and His “foolish” gospel.

Then, God comes along and says:
“Just in case you guys don’t have quite enough faith, I’ll give you a free gift of MORE FAITH.
Now, you have A DOUBLE PORTION … This is My grace; isn’t it wonderful.”
.

 

[Brother Mike]

Yes, everyone knows this verse. But, what bothers me is the "foreknew".
It gives the Armenian an excuse to say, "See, God elects because of what He sees us do and say, etc.".

But, while I'm here, I'd like to share WHY ARMENIANS HAVE MORE FAITH THAN CALVINISTS.

David777 clearly posted who the elect was, I posted (Which you ignored all the scripture) how a sheep are made.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

God, being the Word, the word being God, drawing men by the anointed and called teachers of God with the Word, that is God drawing.

The Word is alive, is God, is anointed. Heb 4:12

The scripture was not given to take a few scriptures and interpret them privet (on their own, by themselves)

So, being an "ARMENIAN" Has nothing to do with faith!!

If you want to increase your faith, Jesus said if you have faith as the grain of a mustard seed there is power to speak to a tree and have it uproot itself.

Mustard Seed.

Mar 4:31 It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth:
Mar 4:32 But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

The seed (Faith) Grows until it produces something.

The seed, Word of God, produces faith.

1) Satan takes that seed, or they did not understand.
2) Some receive with gladness, but having no root are offended when persecution comes for the Word sake. (Satan telling them surly God did not say you where healed, surly God did not say he would pay your bills. They get offended, and give up.
3) Some so busy with life and love of other things let that choke the word.
4) some produce 30,60,100 fold depending on the Measure they gave the Word. This is what moves trees, and mountains. This what puts man in a place to believe God for the impossible, for all things are possible with God.

You want more faith..............start meditating in the Word day and night and you will make your OWN way prosperous. There is more than enough Power in the Word to do so.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[John Zain]

I posted (Which you ignored all the scripture) how a sheep are made.

You want more faith..............
start meditating in the Word day and night and you will make your OWN way prosperous.

Do I have to respond to everything you post?

I have more faith than you could ever imagine
... I just happen to have the gift of faith (1 Cor.12:9).
I had to have it to do what I was called to do.

Do you know much about the 9 major spiritual gifts in 1 Cor.12?
Know anyone who has any of these?
.

 

[Brother Mike]

Election.

Do I have to respond to everything you post?

We do ask that if someone questions things that the poster has mentioned, at least attempt to back their teaching, or doctrine with some scriptures. Certainly I did not want to get wrapped up in this Election stuff, but posting that Salvation is some game that is rigged and your comments to someone to get in the program certainly may have gotten my unwanted attention.

Do you know much about the 9 major spiritual gifts in 1 Cor.12?
Know anyone who has any of these?

I have heard the Election doctrine version of these before, but if you would like to share these feel free to make a thread about them.

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[John Zain]

I have heard the Election doctrine version of these before,
but if you would like to share these feel free to make a thread about them.

I can do this tomorrow, but I cannot see how any version could have anything to do with election.
Let us all strive to bless, edify, teach, etc. each other. Amen?

 

[will]

Will I will put more effort into my post so that you will understand more fully what I am saying.

The definition of Free Will:
The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances
or by an agency such as fate or divine will. I must add the Holy Spirit as this is a secular definition.


The definition alone should answer your question.

If not I can supply further in formation.

Always happy to be of assistance.

David,

In this particular case, the only assistance you've given me is by coming up with good examples and definitions of free will.

Your definition above fits many cases that are recorded in the bible.
For instance, when Adam with his own free will chose to disobey God's direct command (and blame his wife while at it) in his last day(s) at the Garden of Eden.

So please, skip the smug attitude that you're "putting more effort", or that you are "helping" me as though I am a little child.

Proceed with humility and re-think your beliefs. I had to do that as well regarding other concepts, we all have to do that at some point in time.
Isn't that what growing up spiritually means?

 

[will]

Does anyone believe for one moment that our beautiful Jesus.
Would lay down His life not for creation but for a small select group.
This is not Love, this is not kind, this is not scriptural.

A studious devotion to the scriptures guided by the Holy Spirit
and not by a theology. Is the scriptural way to read.

Any theology that distorts the simplicity of God's revelation
is to be rejected.

All for one and one for all.

Amen.
Clearly stated.

 

[Miss Elly]

Election Doctrine:




The belief that God is certainly a respecter of persons, that God already predestined who he created to go to heaven or hell. God made some with emotions, feelings, hopes, and dreams, to only burn eternally in Hell full of pain and anguish with no hope from the day they where born. The election god gets a kick out of this, but so does Satan.



Man has no choice, even if the Word is preached which should have had the power to produce faith, it does not. The Word being God, and the Word being preached does not produce faith. God himself personally must draw you to him without his Word, or your gonna roast.


as posted by John Zain:


What a miracle........wow..




English is not really English, nor do those that believe in election understand simple English inside church. Outside of christian discussions they get this sudden grasp of what "whosoever" means, or the word "ALL", inside Christian discussion the forget the meaning of these words.



Also, to believe in Election, one must change the word of God to include the Word elected. Whosoever, means to only include the elected of course. Changing God's word is fine at this point. John Zain helps us with an example.



Even though the bible states every man was given "THE" measure of faith, man given the ability to believe something. That simple won't do for the Election Doctrine. Man can't believe in anything that would save him. No matter what he he heard, man created in the image of God could not possibly reason within himself to make the right choice for Jesus. God has to pick who this amazing ability and gift goes to.



Which means the Bible is wrong, and we are not even close to the image of God.




The election person must also Back peddle on his election belief's or else he has to admit there is not need for any type of preaching. If we Go too hard core, we simply "Suspend" the belief system of the intelligent. John Zain was kind enough to provide an example of this.




Did you read that? The gospel must be presented to the elect before they can respond to it?????????? Lets go back....





It is very clear, the Elect was born without sin or rebellion, or somehow better than the non elected person. Someone in sin and rebellion would not accept God's invitation to accept Jesus. The elect has this removed for them of course just supernaturally.



There is no need to preach the word to the elect, they are chosen, and nobody can take them out of the fathers hand. This is a wishy washy version of election, I say we go full hard core here.



There is also no need for Jesus, if God picked you, it's all good.



We see the Election doctrine soften it's stance to some things as they certainly know they have to cover up some things.


The only Judgement God "REALLY" gives them is to tell them they where not chosen. It's nothing they did, God created them to suffer forever. At this point God would not lie to them before sending them off to a place most unimaginable, a place full of pain, and Horror. Hell. What a good God we serve..... and who can tell God what he can and can not do? Best answer.



Jesus is Lord.

I totally agree with you Bro. Mike! Also, why didn't God just create "the elect". Instead of going to everlasting punishment, that would be a nicer than to do than letting a lot of people be born who have not choice but to burn in hell fire. Why don't these predestined folks understand that God is talking about his foreknowledge of who will go to heaven and who won't? I hate this false belief of predestination.:secret:

 

[Miss Elly]

Do I have to respond to everything you post?

I have more faith than you could ever imagine
... I just happen to have the gift of faith (1 Cor.12:9).
I had to have it to do what I was called to do.

Do you know much about the 9 major spiritual gifts in 1 Cor.12?
Know anyone who has any of these?
.

Zain, just because christians have differing views of the bible, doesn't mean that are not part of the family of God. And if you will recall that Lucifer was found to have pride in his heart and was kicked out heaven. Some people are "proud" to be humble..."proud" they have so much faith and all the of the gifts of the Lord". You are uplifting yourself because you have "the gifts of the spirit", is that not pride? Remember Lucifier.