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Can not know the Lord without Repentance??

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Active
You think no one is in prison because of threats and conspiracy?
Oh, I know there, but give me a number.

We can parallel it to the number of venial sinners whose love of sin warrants them going to hell.
 
Active
Remember, the verdict is: People go to hell / reject the light (Jesus) ......''''''because'''''.........they......'''''LOVE''''......the darkness John 3:19.

Not easy to prove a venial sinner, loves the darkness.
 
Active
Remember, the verdict is: People go to hell / reject the light (Jesus) ......''''''because'''''.........they......'''''LOVE''''......the darkness John 3:19.
Not easy to prove a venial sinner, loves the darkness.
"Venial" sinners have rejected the Light.
It is written..."The way of the wicked is as darkness:" (Pro 4:19)
Together with..."If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:" (1 John 1:6)...makes it clear that sinners have no fellowship with God.
 
Active
God does not change Num 23:19. Stop making your own god.
Is it a sin to not stone an adulterer?

You are unreal. You ignore the first eight verses and completely focus on this passage.
On this passage,
1. Notice the '''ers'' at the end of each sin. When we repent we are not sinn'ers'. These people are active sinners without a desire to repent. The adulterer that goes on in adultery. An adulterer who has not got a desire to repent. If he did, he would be called the person who used to be in adultery, then made a mistake of it (Christianity / repentance is only ever questionable if we continue in or make once off mortal sins), who repented. We are called saints who make occasional mistakes. Often venial sins.
I can agree that folks who repent of sin are not sinners.
Thankfully I realized the love of God now provides us with the ways and means to make that "turn" permanent.
Why don't you?

Note he does not say ''those who thought of these sins'''
Yep,I can see the difference between temptation and sin..

Note the first eight verses is him URGING us to JUDGE BETTER then the unsaved. Now we know that the unsaved know the difference between a thief who steals a single candy from a candy store and a thief who robs orphans of all their food.
There is no difference...they are both thieves.

Paul will NOT be impressed with your interpretation of this chapter!! I can guarantee that! He is clearly referring to those sold out to these sins!
By "sold out to" I'm sure you mean "kept doing them".
That is the manifestation of no repentance or a false repentance.
And the opposite of that is...?
Men who don't commit any sin anymore.

How many people who have thought about committing sins are in prison?
Who knows?
But only the ones who actually did, and were convicted of the sin/crime, are in prison.
 
Loyal
"How many people who have thought about committing sins are in prison?"

thats easy 100% of the people in prison thought about committing sin and are now in prison :smile:
 
Active
"How many people who have thought about committing sins are in prison?"

thats easy 100% of the people in prison thought about committing sin and are now in prison :smile:
That is an answer to a different question.
Not everyone who thought about committing a crime actually did so.
Some where scared off by guards or were scared of the jail time if caught.
 
Unworthy Servant
Staff Member
Greetings,


I was reading through some of the discussion of late and this took my attention.
Jesus was tempted, but never did he succumb to the temptation according to the verse which was quoted [Heb 4:15]. Every other man has similarly been tempted but all of the rest of them [us] at some point have failed to overcome the temptation... and sinned. This is what it means to be an overcomer.
@amadeus2
Not ignoring anyone's comments and thoughts regarding any part of this discussion but simply to raise a thought, preferably without going backwards over ground covered thus far,

Quite a few have not (yet) overcome, which is evident to them, if no one else.
Could it be that the Lord will continue to allow temptation, even the same temptations until we do overcome, not willing that any should perish? ( a bit like a slow learner's society?)
I am quite sold on the 'doctrine' that the Lord not only wants us (all ) to be overcomers, but that to do so would be a delight to Him.

Could it be that due to His patience and longsuffering to usward, that although we (might) have not overcome one of the temptations as yet,* that in His mercy and grace and love, He allows further testing or trying, as in, for us to try again, much like if one failed an exam, they can sit for it again, and indeed HAVE TO in order to receive the honours due to that exam being passed? {* be it one or all, the figure given for example purpose only}

Trying to see if there might be a bridge in the gap. This is not prolong an already much discussed topic, nor to stir any reason to bite and/or devour one another but in order to oofer some hope for any who are struggling with the place they are in.

Yes, repentance is needed for any to turn to the LORD but He will only accept on His terms, not ours, which is right and just for He is Holy, not us and His terms are Holy, not ours.

Perhaps another take on this could be that in repentance, one still must overcome, so the same temptations that ensnared us at any time prior to repentance will come again to seduce.

Speaking of exams, a consideration is this:
our part is to attend the exam. The rest is and only can be in His Strength and His life, His faithfulness to not cast out any that would come to Him.
Once the exam as such is past, one must walk worthy of the vocation wherewith they have been called or lose their earned qualifications... and if not barred for life, must start at the beginning again.

Which does raise a serious point raised for all in The Bible. Namely crucifying Christ afresh.

Again, a few thoughts.

I would appreciate it if any who want to reply, do so without hostilities and/or finger pointing and but instead with a heart and mind wanting to share in God's love. I am not saying (writing) that any one will, but I know at least one person (member) who has been guilty of that in the past.... but we don't have to)


Bless you ....><>
 
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Active
That is an answer to a different question.
Not everyone who thought about committing a crime actually did so.
Some where scared off by guards or were scared of the jail time if caught.
I don't know why you arguing this. An immoral thought is a sin Matt 5:28.
 
Active
Is it a sin to not stone an adulterer?
OT Jew who had the curse of the law, no. Anyone else, yes. Unless you are perfect. Would you stone the prostitute Jesus saved?

I can agree that folks who repent of sin are not sinners.
Thankfully I realized the love of God now provides us with the ways and means to make that "turn" permanent.
Why don't you?
Perfect is a moving target. You seem to think it is ...only....being sin conscious.

Yep,I can see the difference between temptation and sin..
A thought is not a temptation.


There is no difference...they are both thieves.
I am glad you are not a judge. The thief that steals a single half rotten apple off of the floor of their neighbors yard = 10 years in prison. The thief that steals a pensioners retirement savings = 10 years in prison.

By "sold out to" I'm sure you mean "kept doing them".
Continuing in is one half, yes. The other half is the degree of wickedness. Mortal sins are not venial sins.

That is the manifestation of no repentance or a false repentance.
And the opposite of that is...? Men who don't commit any sin anymore.
[LEFT]Who knows? But only the ones who actually did, and were convicted of the sin/crime, are in prison[/LEFT]
You really do need to grasp the difference between mortal and venial sins.
 
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Unworthy Servant
Staff Member
Greetings,

I honestly didn't want to start up any fires by my last post.
Is it OK with everyone if we back off the attack?

If you're still interested @amadeus2 , I am interested genuinely in what you might think about what I presented a couple of posts back?

===================
@KingJ
I am glad you are not a judge. The thief that steals a single half rotten apple off of the floor of their neighbors yard = 10 years in prison. The thief that steals a pensioners retirement savings = 10 years in prison.
slow down..... slowly slowly... I don't want to argue with you... my lifeis too short.
Let's praise the Lord and stress less over things that are not doing that.

A judge does not make up his own laws for the occasion. He follows the laws in place.
As far as your example goes, different countries have different laws and they have all changed and evolved since dot..... except God's rule , Which is His Word.
to be believed, trusted and obeyed ... for life and a very, very good reason to praise Him.

May I tell you something? There have been times that I have felt so unworthy and came to the conclusion that is I were to perish I still want to praise the LORD because He is righteous and true, Holy and faithful in all He does and even though He won't change any rulesfor me, I don't want Him to because then He would not be a God of Justice we can depend on.

He sent His Son.... let us never scoff or expect anything less that His perfection in Judgement and Justice.

In the Letters from the apostle Peter, he basically is telling the hearers to keep the faith. Times were tough, much tougher than you and i have ever known and maybe even tougher than we ever might (i of course do not know) but no matter what happens, no matter who is right and who is wrong about anything, we have before us an opportunity to praise the LORD for His goodness and to rejoice in His Salvation....
why waste time doing much else if it only gets you grumpy or upset?

I appreciate your zeal but if i may say, zeal has not always been my best friend!


Bless you ....><>
 
Active
I don't know why you arguing this. An immoral thought is a sin Matt 5:28.
How about an immoral thought that you rejected?
Immoral thoughts can come to us via the devil, and without us dreaming it up by our selves.

Matt 5:28..."But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
Do you see the difference between "looking on a woman" and "looking on a woman to lust after her"?
 
Loyal
Greetings,


I was reading through some of the discussion of late and this took my attention.
Amadeus said:
Jesus was tempted, but never did he succumb to the temptation according to the verse which was quoted [Heb 4:15]. Every other man has similarly been tempted but all of the rest of them [us] at some point have failed to overcome the temptation... and sinned. This is what it means to be an overcomer.
Not ignoring anyone's comments and thoughts regarding any part of this discussion but simply to raise a thought, preferably without going backwards over ground covered thus far,

Quite a few have not (yet) overcome, which is evident to them, if no one else.
Could it be that the Lord will continue to allow temptation, even the same temptations until we do overcome, not willing that any should perish? ( a bit like a slow learner's society?)
Indeed, that is at least close to what I see. I look to the example of King David to help me understand. David committed murder and adultery. For either one of those offenses under the law God gave to Moses the punishment was death... yet we see the prophet speaking here and we see God has mercy toward David:

"Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon." II Sam 12:9

"And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die." II Sam 12:13

The black and white of the law was very clear:

"And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death." Lev 24:17

"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." Lev 20:10

God does not leave us to look for or depend upon a black and white answer only [scripture?] although at times He will show us how He sees according to what is written in black and white. Consider what Apostle Paul wrote here:

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." I Cor 10:13

Others may not see it, but in that verse I see that God may allow a faithful believers to move into temptation but if He does He will always either keep them within the limits by which they are already bound [by time, ability, opportunity, etc.] or He will enlarge their limits [increase their strength] to allow them to walk toward or into the worse of temptations but then to escape without committing a purposeful [unpardonable?] sin .

David sinned but God provided a punishment less severe the death mandated by the letter of the law. David should have been a dead man as spiritually we should also be dead men, but for God's mercy. Why would He be so merciful to one [David] and yet exact the letter of the law against another [King Saul] whose crimes on the surface were lesser crimes? Because God was and is always seeing deeper than the superficial action or inaction of the person. God sees the heart of the man and it is according to that that He makes His judgement.

"If thou sayest, Behold, we knew it not; doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it? and he that keepeth thy soul, doth not he know it? and shall not he render to every man according to his works?" Prov 24:12

"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48


I am quite sold on the 'doctrine' that the Lord not only wants us (all ) to be overcomers, but that to do so would be a delight to Him.
Amen, this is what He wants and He opened the Way so that each of us can do it. If we do not, we have also made that choice. How much do we love God as opposed to simply loving the rewards promises to overcomers?
Could it be that due to His patience and longsuffering to usward, that although we (might) have not overcome one of the temptations as yet,* that in His mercy and grace and love, He allows further testing or trying, as in, for us to try again, much like if one failed an exam, they can sit for it again, and indeed HAVE TO in order to receive the honours due to that exam being passed? {* be it one or all, the figure given for example purpose only}
Everyone here who has really had a favorable experience with God is already an overcomer. But is our overcoming completed by one experience or can we move closer to God by continuing to overcome as we have time and opportunity? Compare the experience of Job, the perfect man according to Job 1:1, who then had to go through some rough experiences, with the experience of the so-called good thief who died on the cross next to Jesus. How much time or opportunity was given to each of them according to scripture? How successful was each of them in the considering the time provided?

Consider again these words spoken by Jesus:

[LEFT]"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48

Was not Job was given more time after being called perfect than the man on the cross who was promised a place with Jesus in paradise? It would seem to me that according to Jesus's words in Luke 12:48 more time given meant more would be required in return. [/LEFT]

Trying to see if there might be a bridge in the gap. This is not prolong an already much discussed topic, nor to stir any reason to bite and/or devour one another but in order to oofer some hope for any who are struggling with the place they are in.

Yes, repentance is needed for any to turn to the LORD but He will only accept on His terms, not ours, which is right and just for He is Holy, not us and His terms are Holy, not ours.

Perhaps another take on this could be that in repentance, one still must overcome, so the same temptations that ensnared us at any time prior to repentance will come again to seduce.

Speaking of exams, a consideration is this:
our part is to attend the exam. The rest is and only can be in His Strength and His life, His faithfulness to not cast out any that would come to Him.
Once the exam as such is past, one must walk worthy of the vocation wherewith they have been called or lose their earned qualifications... and if not barred for life, must start at the beginning again.

Which does raise a serious point raised for all in The Bible. Namely crucifying Christ afresh.
All that we have been given: time, opportunity, intelligence, money, education, or the lack of each of these, goes into that "much is given, much is required" according to Jesus. If we were born to a family with a comfortable place to live and enough food on the table in a comparatively rich technically advanced supposedly Christian and reasonably democratic country and treated well instead of to a poor family in a country like Haiti, where we were regularly mistreated, would we not suppose that God would require more of us than of them? The complexity of such comparisons can only be fairly made by God Himself. Again the Apostle Paul writes of this:

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise." II Cor 10:12

Again what have we been doing with what God has given us and what are we doing?

If you have a Bible written in your native language which you know how to read and no one limits your right or ability to read it, are you not in a different place than the illiterate person who has no Bible and no one who is allowed by the laws of the land to teach him about Jesus?

Is not God always fair?
 
Unworthy Servant
Staff Member
Greetings amadeus2,

thank you for putting the time into replying.

I'm considering starting a new thread to give us a place to dig deeper into the treasure box of Scripture and like children share the excitement of jewels found!

Recently I have had the honour to be able to talk about overcoming and the three 'temptations', the 'original sin' and the trees in the midst of the Garden. I must tell you that I have had a lot of inspiration through the things you share and have been able to pass on with even more depth some of what i have seen in what you present here. So, thank you for being honest and faithful to share things that can help us all appreciate the wonders we have before us in Scripture and how they all reflect the Glory of God in His Son Jesus Christ.

and to use your words,

give all glory to God!


Bless you ....><>
 
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