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Can A Saved person Ever Become Unsaved?

Can A Saved person Ever Become Unsaved?


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    33
(Matt. 24:13). This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one’s eternal salvation, but to physical deliverance of those who trust in the Savior during the Tribulation. The endurance, then, is physical survival. While many will be martyred, a few will make to the end. Those who endure through the awful events of the Tribulation will be alive or delivered by Messiah when he returns to earth. This is not a reference to eternal salvation from sin, but rather the deliverance of survivors at the end of the Tribulation as stated in Romans 11:26 where the Deliver will save the nation Israel from its persecutors. Many will not endure to the end in that they will be martyred for their faith as described in Revelation 7:9-17

Does Matt. 24:13 conflict with free grace salvation and the believer’s security?
 
Greetings @Dave M ,

I hear what you are saying but something about it doesn't sit right. I read through the linked page and can see that you are sharing the same idea from there. While it can sound good if you are after 'proof' concerning any particular way one currently views this question of 'eternal security', that itself does not qualify the content of a teaching to be truth.
I think the enduring or overcoming is more than physically surviving a violent time. If that were the case, all who survive would be saved, regardless of faith they do or do not have.

Also, when you wrote :
a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one’s eternal salvation
it is agreed that the only result being salvation is God's grace through His Son Jesus Christ but may I ask for definition of what "personal self-effort" is?

It may help some to comprehend all you are attempting to get across in this thread?

Your posts give plenty to consider and often outside of the box.

Bless you ....><>
 
Hey bear

here is what was said in my post that you left out " This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one’s eternal salvation"

indicating about the scripture Matt. 24:13, if all it took was a physical effort on our part for salvation then that would make grace null and void. That would be a work, I think we all agree you can not work your way to salvation.

seems we agree
 
Hi Dave,Are you saying Jesus does the believing for us??? We as believers do have but one work,and that is to believe.( John 6:28-29) ( Rom 10:9-11) I sure agree Jesus did all the work, we just have to believe in what he did,that is our part.( Rom 10:4)
 
Hi Dave,Are you saying Jesus does the believing for us???

Ahh.. but to be a true Calvinist - you HAVE to believe that.
If any part (even just the believing) depends on us. Then it's it's possible we can fail (and we fail all the time).

we just have to believe

Well, we also have to repent. Mark 1:4; Mark 1:15; Luke 3:3; Luke 5:32; Luke 13:3; Luke 13:5; etc...
 
Hi Dave,Are you saying Jesus does the believing for us??? We as believers do have but one work,and that is to believe.( John 6:28-29) ( Rom 10:9-11) I sure agree Jesus did all the work, we just have to believe in what he did,that is our part.( Rom 10:4)

No we have the choice to believe or not, however scripture does also teach that we are chosen, that's a tough one get a handle on with our limited human minds in the flesh, so I do not try.
 
Greetings,

here is what was said in my post that you left out " This does not refer to a personal self-effort at endurance that results in one’s eternal salvation"

Dave,
Yes I did leave the other parts out because my thoughts were if an understanding of "personal self effort" could be grasped then the rest could be better understood.
Thanks for replying.

Regarding choice and more specifically 'chose' that you mention, keep in mind, first, not as an additive, Salvation is the LORD's. Salvation is His choice. Does that make sense?
Remember God is NOT willing that any perish and from my way of looking, that is a good choice. Most tend to fall short of choosing like that if someone deserves punishment, in their eyes. Jesus spoke a lot about that.
Do you think God's original plan was anything less than good for man? Before He created all we see, including man, His choice was all that Salvation incorporates, all that Salvation is. Why else would our Father be longsuffering, patient and full of mercy and grace? If the fullness of Salvation was not His desire towards us from before the foundation of the world then why would He bother? We can sum up with this, God is Love.
Jesus spoke a lot about that, too.

So don't get muddled with all the rubbish that is spoken but start with God and walk and run with Him.
In Christ we have Salvation.

He IS the author and finisher of our faith, that blessed thread that binds us and holds us.

We can believe Him and better still we can believe in Him, our Peace.

Bless you ....><>
 
Greetings,



Dave,
Yes I did leave the other parts out because my thoughts were if an understanding of "personal self effort" could be grasped then the rest could be better understood.
Thanks for replying.

Regarding choice and more specifically 'chose' that you mention, keep in mind, first, not as an additive, Salvation is the LORD's. Salvation is His choice. Does that make sense?
Remember God is NOT willing that any perish and from my way of looking, that is a good choice. Most tend to fall short of choosing like that if someone deserves punishment, in their eyes. Jesus spoke a lot about that.
Do you think God's original plan was anything less than good for man? Before He created all we see, including man, His choice was all that Salvation incorporates, all that Salvation is. Why else would our Father be longsuffering, patient and full of mercy and grace? If the fullness of Salvation was not His desire towards us from before the foundation of the world then why would He bother? We can sum up with this, God is Love.
Jesus spoke a lot about that, too.

So don't get muddled with all the rubbish that is spoken but start with God and walk and run with Him.
In Christ we have Salvation.

He IS the author and finisher of our faith, that blessed thread that binds us and holds us.

We can believe Him and better still we can believe in Him, our Peace.

Bless you ....><>


Bear this is getting off topic so I am going to stop here but would like to pursue it much farther and deeper so I am going to start another thread
.
 
Here is a point I look to make to a Calvinist,in which I have yet to get any kind of scriptural answer to,so perhaps you can help me understand. Let say for the sake not to debate this, that you are correct. Here is my question.If Jesus does everything including believing for us,which there is no scripture saying this,then upon judgment( Rev 20:11-15) How can we be judged at all? Jesus did it himself! He predestined me to not believe to start with? Now we know from his own word he would have everyone believe!( 2 Peter 3:9) So if God controls everything including ones own belief how can any perish? And if any do then it is not our fault, God did it himself. Is this correct??
 
Here is a point I look to make to a Calvinist,in which I have yet to get any kind of scriptural answer to,so perhaps you can help me understand. Let say for the sake not to debate this, that you are correct. Here is my question.If Jesus does everything including believing for us,which there is no scripture saying this,then upon judgment( Rev 20:11-15) How can we be judged at all? Jesus did it himself! He predestined me to not believe to start with? Now we know from his own word he would have everyone believe!( 2 Peter 3:9) So if God controls everything including ones own belief how can any perish? And if any do then it is not our fault, God did it himself. Is this correct??

I agree with you !!! however we also have to look at scripture like the following

John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Ephesians 1:3-4
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 8:28-30
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


Now for all that predestined talk and he chose us talk, there is also scripture that say we have choice to believe, so its a hard topic to full comprehend which I do not think man in the flesh is able to fully comprehend.

For the record I believe what scriptures says and that is we have a choice to believe or not, and that God already knows what we are going to choose!!!.
I am no Calvinist !!!

John 1:12-13
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.


Joshua 24:15
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

John 20:29
Jesus said to him, “Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

John 14:1
“Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.

John 1:12
But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
 
There of course are two trains of thought here.

1 Tim 2:3-4; 2 Pet 3:9; which say God wants EVERYONE to be saved. (some simply choose not to accept Him).
And all the verses about the elect and chosen and predestined - are for everyone. God draws us all near. Some just refuse God
and reject the Holy Spirit.

or...

God has chosen some to go to hell. In fact "hyper" Calvinists (not my term, I found it on the internet in several places)
like Jerry Bridges, and John MacArthur go so far as to say, God has so much control over us, that even when we sin
it's because God "makes" us sin. (dangerous doctrine)
 
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, He hath bid His guests.
Zephaniah 1:7

1Thessalonians 5:1-11;24,25
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Faithful is He that calleth you, Who also will do it.
 
It's basically depends on the time and place. This could be more much unsaved for you. Actually time will tell everything.
 
Greetings @Dave M

did you say something about 'off topic'?

Bless you ....><>

LOL :) I thought that very thing as I got sucked in and wrote that forgive me. So back on topic.

YOu can only be born again once and once you are you are saved for ever, and the things that you loose for being bad are rewards, and the things you gain for pleasing our heavenly Father are rewards. Praise Jesus. Eternal life we receive now when we are borned again. God bless. I do not think anyone is going to have there mind changed in this thread
 
Restore unto me the joy of Thy salvation;
and uphold me with Thy free spirit.

Psalm 51:12
 
I was not looking for a problem,I just like to do my best in understanding, if possible,the mindset of another. LOL But sometimes,I just cannot!
 
Romans 10:9-10
Because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

the thing about being saved is you (we) are still a sinner!! yes we do not live in sin as much as we used to, and you see a transformed life once we are saved, and compared to our past its probably a 100% better, but guess what you are still a sinner and not worthy we still deserve hell, only Jesus dying for us makes us worthy its all through him that we are saved.

 
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