Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?

[rojoloco]

No sir, respectfully, I'm not missing your point at all. It's just that your point is not the bigger picture, it is the smaller view, the more comfortable one. I have study this in very great depth for over 20 years and have immersed myself in every commentary on the topic I could find, and then dissected the Scripture myself to arrive at my own theology, as I understand the Word of Truth.

If "Once saved, always saved." is the 'bigger picture' of Scripture then somebody should have told Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Peter, Paul and Jude, because they wasted an awful lot of words teaching otherwise! Not one of them taught, "Get saved, then do whatever you want, you're still cool with God!"

It was your very last sentence that just proved to me you haven't done any real research at all. If you truly have done 20 years of "immersed" study, have read "every commentary," and dissected the Scripture, you would know the doctrine of Eternal Security teaches nothing of "Get saved, then do whatever you want, you're still cool with God!" In fact, the doctrine of Eternal Security condemns this view as false teaching. The doctrine you just referenced to me is that held by anti-Calvinists who have graduated from the University of Internet and have sipped from the Chalice of Ignorance. Sorry for the snarky response. It just irks me when I hear people tell me what a doctrine (that they oppose) teaches when they clearly have no idea what it actually DOES teach.

Again, for 20 years of immersed study, I would expect more from you. I can tell you all about what the doctrine actually teaches. It's never too late to learn. As much as I want to teach the Truth of it to you, I feel I need to teach what it says first.

 

[RJ]

No sir, respectfully, I'm not missing your point at all. It's just that your point is not the bigger picture, it is the smaller view, the more comfortable one. I have study this in very great depth for over 20 years and have immersed myself in every commentary on the topic I could find, and then dissected the Scripture myself to arrive at my own theology, as I understand the Word of Truth.

If "Once saved, always saved." is the 'bigger picture' of Scripture then somebody should have told Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Peter, Paul and Jude, because they wasted an awful lot of words teaching otherwise! Not one of them taught, "Get saved, then do whatever you want, you're still cool with God!"

You just don't get it JD.

Of course no one taught: Not one of them taught, "Get saved, then do whatever you want, you're still cool with God!"[/QUOTE]

Why is it you and others that believe like you do, always want to take us, who believe in "once saved", and ALWAYS paint us in a corner that we can do ANYTHING we want?....Paul never said that and nor have I ever seen anyone say that. But, that is YOUR most common come back to put down "once saved".

In fact the opposite of what YOU believe or understand is true, that, any Christian who literally believes, that the gift of grace means that you can do or "get away" with anything is proof that they were not saved in the first place.

For most of your list of writers above, wrote most of their books while Jesus was alive and while man was fully under the LAW, for which Jesus was, then, the greatest supporter of the Law. The only writer that came in after the resurrection only AND was commissioned by God to teach us Grace, was Paul.

From his teachings, if Paul were alive today, he would be a staunch supporter of "once saved" and anyone he found doing or saying , in there heart, that they could do anything that THEY wanted, he would call them an Apostate.

 

[rojoloco]

You just don't get it JD.

Of course no one taught: Not one of them taught, "Get saved, then do whatever you want, you're still cool with God!"

Why is it you and others that believe like you do, always want to take us, who believe in "once saved", and ALWAYS paint us in a corner that we can do ANYTHING we want?....Paul never said that and nor have I ever seen anyone say that. But, that is YOUR most common come back to put down "once saved".

In fact the opposite of what YOU believe or understand is true, that, any Christian who literally believes, that the gift of grace means that you can do or "get away" with anything is proof that they were not saved in the first place.

For most of your list of writers above, wrote most of their books while Jesus was alive and while man was fully under the LAW, for which Jesus was, then, the greatest supporter of the Law. The only writer that came in after the resurrection only AND was commissioned by God to teach us Grace, was Paul.

From his teachings, if Paul were alive today, he would be a staunch supporter of "once saved" and anyone he found doing or saying , in there heart, that they could do anything that THEY wanted, he would call them an Apostate.

I never thought I would say this but I agree with everything you just said. :wink:

 

[RJ]

I never thought I would say this but I agree with everything you just said. :wink:

Crazy Red, LOL!... you never thought because you didn't believe that before or you just did'n t believe me?

 

[jiggyfly]

You just don't get it JD.

Of course no one taught: Not one of them taught, "Get saved, then do whatever you want, you're still cool with God!"

Why is it you and others that believe like you do, always want to take us, who believe in "once saved", and ALWAYS paint us in a corner that we can do ANYTHING we want?....Paul never said that and nor have I ever seen anyone say that. But, that is YOUR most common come back to put down "once saved".

In fact the opposite of what YOU believe or understand is true, that, any Christian who literally believes, that the gift of grace means that you can do or "get away" with anything is proof that they were not saved in the first place.

For most of your list of writers above, wrote most of their books while Jesus was alive and while man was fully under the LAW, for which Jesus was, then, the greatest supporter of the Law. The only writer that came in after the resurrection only AND was commissioned by God to teach us Grace, was Paul.

From his teachings, if Paul were alive today, he would be a staunch supporter of "once saved" and anyone he found doing or saying , in there heart, that they could do anything that THEY wanted, he would call them an Apostate.[/QUOTE]

Actually Paul was not a supporter or teacher of OSAS or NOSAS nor were any of the first century apostles. A study into "church history" bears this out.:wink:

 

[Tusk Barnes]

There is a vast difference between a threat and a promise. Do you actually believe God needs us? He's God!!! It's quite simple. Either we are reconciled to Him through the Son and will inherit eternal life or we are not and will not. It's not a threat. It's either/or. Think of it as a courtesy "head's up" so to speak.

I don't know how you differentiate a promise of torment from a threat of torment, but whatever works for you. To your first question, no, if there is a God, then I have no reason to believe He needs any of us. I totally agree with you and your three !s. Haha. I see what you're saying, but the fact remains that He created us with the foresight and the knowledge that 60-80% of us would never get to meet Him, and would have to pay with it...as if this were our fault.

Being reconciled to Him through His Son confuses me, though. Because His Son is Him. So we're reconciled to Him through Him. He sent Himself to pay the cost of something that He placed an exorbitant price on.

Say I'm a landlord and you rent one of my apartments, and then I set the rental price so high that you could never hope to pay. I look mean and thoughtless, don't I. Then say, I'm loving and I want to make sure you can still live in my apartment complex, so I make this big show of working 80-hour weeks and sacrificing time with family and friends just pay your share of the rent for your apartment, and to show you how much I care, with one caveat...You have to act like I paid for your rent, or other people will not believe that I actually did. Do I really look like I care? All I've done is pay myself for a ridiculous debt I created and placed on you. Why don't I just make the price more reasonable in the first place? I don't know, man. The whole "ultimate sacrifice" jargle just seems really silly and convoluted, and Love could have been demonstrated in a much simpler and less unnecessary way. The alleged sacrifice of Jesus says a lot about God. We can both agree on that. I just don't think we agree on what it says about Him.


P.S. I enjoyed your response to my "challenge," and I'll probably PM you later, because it's off subject now. I might open post on your other site since there hasn't been too much activity since you responded over there.

Be well and be good...or else. haha

 

[MightyAngel1]

Once saved, always saved? Can a Christian lose their salvation after they have truly accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior?

Howdy Seeker of Jesus!

First of all, This topic is a very powerful topic. Many Christians will do well and gain the Wisdom of God when they learn the Truth of Salvation.

So, To answer your question...My Biblical answer is...NO!!! A Christian who has truly accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour will NEVER lose their Salvation.

Now, Why is that? The Only way a Christian truly saved can loose their salvation is for God to remove the seal of the Holy Spirit on the circumcised heart of a believer in Jesus Christ. See Romans 2:28.

If God does this, God has violated a Commandment given to a Believer in Jesus Christ, i.e. Christian. Well, What has God violated? What promise has God given to a Christian that He would violate if He removed the Seal of the Holy Spirit?

God says...I will never leave you nor forsake you. Now, Since God does not change, see Malachi 3:6 in part, For I am the Lord, I change not, and God does not break Covenant, nor alter the thing that goes out of His lips, see Psalm 89:34,...

Then, A Christian has assurance that He or She will never lose their Salvation. Even, If they become reprobate, see Romans 1:28-32, God NEVER breaks Covenant.

Now, When a person is saved, They are saved by Grace. See Ephesians 2:8-9. But, There are many Christians who teach that Grace is a license to sin. However, This is not the case.

Grace is the license to Walk In The Spirit with the Power of the Holy Spirit. This is the License a Christian has in Jesus Christ being saved by Grace.

Seeker of Jesus--There is major divided opinion in the Body of Christ right now on this question. Many believe that you cannot lose your salvation – no matter how many bad things you may end up doing. The Bible says that we are “sealed” with the Holy Spirit at the moment of our salvation with the Lord and that nothing can break this seal – no matter how many bad and evil sins that person may commit after getting saved.

This is true.

SOJ--Others believe that God will not be mocked and that you can lose your salvation if you get into some of the more heavier and evil types of sins.

In the eyes of God, There is no little sin and there is no big sin. Sin is sin. Period.

SOJ--I believe there are several verses in Scripture that really do answer this question – with one verse in particular. After studying these verses very carefully, it is my own personal opinion that a Christian can lose their salvation after having already been saved. However, I do believe that you really have to get into some of the heavier type sins before this will actually happen.

Since God gives Salvation as a free gift, then, God is the only person who can take away that Gift of Salvation. There is absolutely nothing a person can do to lose their Salvation.

SOJ--I believe that the seal we have with the Holy Spirit is a very strong and powerful seal – but that it can be broken if that person with their own free will has chosen to live this life on the darker side.

Wait a minute. You believe the Seal of the Holy Spirit is a very strong and powerful seal. Okay. Then, A Christian who chooses to live on the darker side after they are saved has now become more powerful than God because they can break the Power of the Holy Spirit's Seal.

Really now? A Christian becomes so powerful that they can break the Power of the Holy Spirit's Seal? Have you really thought about this point?

I really believe that you need to rethink your position here.

SOJ--I will go ahead and give you the main verses from Scripture that deal with this possibility. You will each have to judge and discern for yourself whether or not you feel these verses are implying that a Christian can lose their salvation.

That sounds fair enough. But, A Christian can never loose their Salvation. But, I will take a look at what you have written.

SOJ--For those of you who are really wanting an answer on this issue – I would highly recommend that you study these verses very carefully, and then ask God the Father, through the Holy Spirit, to give you His direct answer on this issue due to the extreme importance of it.

God has already given to us the answer anyone seeks on this question. You will find the answer in the Bible.

SOJ--1. A Falling Away

In my opinion, this first verse hits the nail right on the head. Here is the verse, and then I will point out several key phrases showing that it might be possible for a Christian to lose their salvation.

Okay. Let us take a look.

SOJ--“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

First of all, Who is the specific audience being addressed here? We are in the Book of Hebrews Chapter 6 reading verse 4. Okay.

The Specific Audience being addressed here according to the Seed Covenant of Abraham is the Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the Heaven. Genesis 26:4.

SOJ--For the earth which brings in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.” (Hebrews 6:4-8)

Hebrews 6:7-8 is a very powerful passage of Scripture. You see, The Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the heaven will go through the very same judgment as the Seed of Abraham multiplied as the stars of the heaven. Genesis 15:4-5.

Both the Seed of Abraham and the Seed of Isaac in the New Testament Church Age will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, also known as the BEMA JUDGMENT, See Revelation 4:2-3,...

which occurs immediately after the Rapture of all believers in Jesus Christ, see Revelation 4:1 and Acts 15:17, taught by the Apostle Paul in Romans 14:10, 2 Corinthians 5:10, and 1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

You see, Every work of a believer at the Judgment Seat of Christ, Jew or Gentile, will be tried by fire, 1 Corinthians 3:15, and the outcome of this burning will determine if they receive a reward or suffer loss.

SOJ--First notice the specific wording being used to describe what I believe is a saved and born again Christian:

* Those who were once enlightened
* Have tasted the heavenly gift
* Become partakers of the Holy Spirit
* Have tasted the good Word of God

Since, The Book of Hebrews is addressing the Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the Heaven, The specific wording above describes Messianic Jewish believers in the Messiah Jesus Christ in the Church Age.

SOJ--You cannot be a “partaker of the Holy Spirit” unless you are saved and born again.

This is true.

SOJ--Only Christians receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation.

Not really. Jewish Saints do, too. That is the Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the heaven in the Church Age. They receive the Holy Spirit as well when they accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah.

SOJ--Nonbelievers do not have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of them like Christians do. You can only be a partaker of the Holy Spirit if you already have Him living on the inside of you.

I will agree with that.

SOJ--Only a Christian can truly “taste the good Word of God.” Unless you have the Holy Spirit living on the inside you – you can never fully understand the Bible because all of the Bible was really written by God the Father through the Holy Spirit.

Jewish Saints can as well.

SOJ--Much of the Bible has to be spiritually discerned and this is done by and through the Holy Spirit. It is the job of Holy Spirit to teach us all things and to guide us into all truth.

I agree with that. See John 14:26 and John 15:26.

SOJ---As a result of the Holy Spirit helping you to understand the Bible when you are reading it – you then start to become “enlightened” as the above verse states. You cannot become truly “enlightened” unless you already have the Holy Spirit living on the inside of you and He is working with you to help you understand the spiritual truths that are in the Bible.

On this point, I would say that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding. Proverbs 9:10. Also, The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Proverbs 1:7a.

SOJ--Put it all together – you cannot be truly enlightened, be a partaker of the Holy Spirit, and have the ability to “taste” the Word of God and the powers of the age to come unless you are a born-again Christian. I believe these specific words being used are showing that this verse is specifically talking about Christians.

Actually, The Verse above is referring to born again Jewish Saints in the Church Age of the Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the heaven. Once again, Scripture Reference is Genesis 26:4.

SOJ--And then watch what it says next: “For it is impossible … if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance …”

I think the key words in those phrases are “if they fall away.” What is considered a “falling away?” Obviously God the Father will be the final judge on what is considered a falling away from Him.

Please allow me to cut to the chase here. Let us look at If they fall away. Fall away here comes from the Greek Word parapipto which means to fall aside, i.e. (figuratively) to apostatize: --fall away.

Now, Let us bring in once again the four phrases that you used above.

* Those who were once enlightened
* Have tasted the heavenly gift
* Become partakers of the Holy Spirit
* Have tasted the good Word of God

Now, Since we are dealing with the Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the heaven, that is Born Again Jewish Saints in the Church Age also known as Messianic Jews, We can gain a better understanding of this verse.

The Question is...How does a Born Again Jewish Saint fall away, or apostatize who they are in Jesus Christ?

Well, First of all, We must have a Biblical understanding of what Faith is. Before Salvation, The Father gives to every man a measure of faith. For What purpose? To believe on the Name of His Holy Son, Jesus Christ. Romans 12:3.

When a person is saved, Jew or Gentile, what happens? The Heart of that person is circumcised, Jew or Gentile, and Jesus gives to them a measure of faith. Romans 10:17 every time they hear the Word of God proclaimed.

Also, When a person is saved, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit come an live within that person. See John 14:23 and 1 Corinthians 6:19. The Holy Spirit also gives a measure of faith and this faith is called the Gift of Faith. 1 Corinthians 12:9.

And, Every good gift from above, James 1:17, is given without repentance, Romans 11:29. Which literally means that when The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit gives a person who is saved their respective measure of faith, Almighty God never becomes a Grinch. A Believer will always have their faith.

So, Let us now examine what a Born Again Jewish Saint does as a believer in Jesus Christ. Well, The Bible teaches us in Revelation 14:12 that a Jewish Saint keeps the Commandments of God and has the Faith of Jesus.

Well, Since a believer can never lose the Faith of Jesus once given, That leaves us with the Commandments of God and the question that I have asked above which was...

How does a Born Again Jewish Saint fall away, or apostatize who they are in Jesus Christ?

Now, Here is the powerful answer. The only way a Born Again Jewish Saint can fall away is to stop keeping the 7 Feasts of the Lord. These 7 Feasts are the Commandments of God found in Leviticus 23.

Once they stop keeping the 7 Feasts of the Lord, It is impossible once they fall away to renew them to repentance. This is the very reason why you NEVER see a Born Again Jewish Saint not keep the 7 Feasts of the Lord.

Why? God gave these 7 Feasts of the Lord to the Jewish people to keep as a statute for ever throughout their generations in all their dwellings. Leviticus 23:14, 21, 31, & 41.

Because, Once they stop keeping the 7 Feasts of the Lord, God will place them under His curse, see Deuteronomy 11:28, and then, in His time, God will kill them.

An example of falling away from keeping the 7 Feasts of the Lord is not keeping the Feast of Unleavened bread. If a Born Again Jewish Saint decides to eat leavened bread during this Feast, God will kill them.

Why? Under the Torah, There are 42 sins that carry the death penalty. And, One of those sins that carry the death penalty is eating leavened bread during the Feast of Unleavened bread.

A Second example is not keeping the Feast of Passover. Any Born Again Jewish Saint that does not keep the Feast of Passover at the appointed time, carries the death penalty. God will kill them.

Once again, This is why you never see a Born Again Jewish Saint not keeping, or falling away from, the 7 Feasts of the Lord.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike

 

[RJ]

[/COLOR]

Why is it you and others that believe like you do, always want to take us, who believe in "once saved", and ALWAYS paint us in a corner that we can do ANYTHING we want?....Paul never said that and nor have I ever seen anyone say that. But, that is YOUR most common come back to put down "once saved".

In fact the opposite of what YOU believe or understand is true, that, any Christian who literally believes, that the gift of grace means that you can do or "get away" with anything is proof that they were not saved in the first place.

For most of your list of writers above, wrote most of their books while Jesus was alive and while man was fully under the LAW, for which Jesus was, then, the greatest supporter of the Law. The only writer that came in after the resurrection only AND was commissioned by God to teach us Grace, was Paul.

From his teachings, if Paul were alive today, he would be a staunch supporter of "once saved" and anyone he found doing or saying , in there heart, that they could do anything that THEY wanted, he would call them an Apostate.

Actually Paul was not a supporter or teacher of OSAS or NOSAS nor were any of the first century apostles. A study into "church history" bears this out.:wink:[/QUOTE]

The term OSAS was not used then but you miss the point, I did say that if Paul were alive today. Also, you must not understand what the meaning is of what Paul said in Hebrews 6:4-6.

If you are truly "Born Again", God, Jesus Christ, lives in you. When God said some 750 years before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, that he would PUT himself in the hearts and minds of men and would look at there sin no more, what is it that you don't believe about God being inside you?

Jesus himself said you have two births, one of the flesh from your earthly parents and one of the Spirit. When you are born of the spirit, God fulfills his promise still and indwells himself inside you. Why is it that you don't believe God, when he said that he would never leave us? To be born of either birth means that you can't be un-born from either one.

And in Hebrews 6:4-6, Paul is essentially saying that it is impossible to turn around and return to repentance a person who received his Spiritual Birth and then fell away to Apostasy. He is saying that you can't bring someone back from a place they have never been! Paul is also saying that once you have been born again, there is no such thing as then going to a state of rejection of Christ. He was saying that if it were true, then there is no more sacrifices and it is impossible to have Christ crucified again, he has sat down at the right hand of the father for all times.

You can't be born again and saved then unborn and unsaved, then, be born again..again...then be unborn again. Sounds like OSAS to me!:wink::wink:

 

[spirit1st]

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Eph 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:


Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.


Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
1Jn 4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

 

[rojoloco]

Crazy Red, LOL!... you never thought because you didn't believe that before or you just did'n t believe me?

I most definitely whole-heartedly believed in Eternal Security before. Heck, it puts the "P" in TULIP and, as I am a 5 point Calvinist, I promote it all the way. The two of us just always seem to have areas of contention in every one of our posts so it was nice to have 1 entire post that I could agree on and not debate over.

 

[JDFree]

The 'Once saved, always saved' belief varies widely between individuals, so it's not just you guy's or your church's doctrine or whatever that outlines the rules. There are many who believe they are saved, because they followed the teachings they heard of the 'Path to righteousness', but the teacher was a lying deceiver. Others may have come to that conclusion from reading a Bible all alone and making a decision without any further input or guidance, "Hey, haha, this is too easy....". In the complicated course of my life I'd honestly have to guess that I've met far more people that THINK they are saved than people who are ACTUALLY Saved. So, how are these people to truly know?

The view that Jesus was speaking to the world under the Law, and that His sacrifice had not come into effect yet is really pretty weak. He was and is, afterall, the SON of GOD! You make it sound like He'd have been surprised when the Romans showed up to hang Him! No, on the contrary, He was filled with the Spirit throughout His life and knew well from the beginning His eventual mission in life, and death, and resurrection and spoke to the same dying world continuously.

It was the Spirit of Jesus that would fill the hearts and minds and guide in the words of all those who would contribute to Scripture. It was that Spirit in Him which chose the apostles. It was that Spirit which chose the family He would be born into! Jesus spoke to the whole world throughout time, and spoke the same message, if you fully understand what was taught in the old Testament.

In my investigations I've hung out with everybody from Baptists to Calvinists, Brannonites, 'Anointed' poisonous snake handlers, Roman Catholics, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, 'The Way', mainline denominations and fringy splinter groups and ALL THOUGHT THEY WERE 'SAVED'! You just cannot paint with that broad of a brush to say that ALL people who believe in Eternal Security believe in it exactly as you do.

 

[JDFree]

I see more food for thought in these sayings of Jesus: [sorry if they were already posted or linked]

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore, by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Therefore, whosoever hear these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house: and it fell not; for it was founded on a rock.

And everyone that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." Matthew 7:13-27

"Also I say unto you, Whosoever confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God." Luke 12:8-9

 

[SpiritLedEd]

For most of your list of writers above, wrote most of their books while Jesus was alive and while man was fully under the Law.

Where did this info come from, RJ? My study Bible shows that none of the gospels were written before AD 50, while Christ's death and resurrection occured about AD 30. I haven't checked the epistles yet.

SLE

 

[RJ]

The 'Once saved, always saved' belief varies widely between individuals, so it's not just you guy's or your church's doctrine or whatever that outlines the rules. There are many who believe they are saved, because they followed the teachings they heard of the 'Path to righteousness', but the teacher was a lying deceiver. Others may have come to that conclusion from reading a Bible all alone and making a decision without any further input or guidance, "Hey, haha, this is too easy....". In the complicated course of my life I'd honestly have to guess that I've met far more people that THINK they are saved than people who are ACTUALLY Saved. So, how are these people to truly know?

The view that Jesus was speaking to the world under the Law, and that His sacrifice had not come into effect yet is really pretty weak. He was and is, afterall, the SON of GOD! You make it sound like He'd have been surprised when the Romans showed up to hang Him! No, on the contrary, He was filled with the Spirit throughout His life and knew well from the beginning His eventual mission in life, and death, and resurrection and spoke to the same dying world continuously.

It was the Spirit of Jesus that would fill the hearts and minds and guide in the words of all those who would contribute to Scripture. It was that Spirit in Him which chose the apostles. It was that Spirit which chose the family He would be born into! Jesus spoke to the whole world throughout time, and spoke the same message, if you fully understand what was taught in the old Testament.

In my investigations I've hung out with everybody from Baptists to Calvinists, Brannonites, 'Anointed' poisonous snake handlers, Roman Catholics, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, 'The Way', mainline denominations and fringy splinter groups and ALL THOUGHT THEY WERE 'SAVED'! You just cannot paint with that broad of a brush to say that ALL people who believe in Eternal Security believe in it exactly as you do.

The spirit in Jesus, as you say, is God, is the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God and Jesus is Holy Spirit; they are all in one.

So YOU, think that the view that Jesus was speaking to the world under the law and that his sacrifice had not come into effect yet is weak.

Since when is the truth weak?
I am not sure where you come up with all this but please, with your knowledge, what does these two passages say:

Mark 15:37-38
" And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed his last. And the curtain was torn in two, from top to bottom.


Hebrews 9:15-17
15Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.16For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

 

[RJ]

Where did this info come from, RJ? My study Bible shows that none of the gospels were written before AD 50, while Christ's death and resurrection occured about AD 30. I haven't checked the epistles yet.

SLE

One of my favorite movie statements is from "Cool Hand Luke" with Paul Newman. If you haven't seen it before, you need to find an archive of it somewhere, it is a classic!

The famous line was; " What we have here, is a failure to communicate'!

When they were written, doesn't matter. What does matter is that they were written by followers of Jesus and knew him intimately..."up close and personal"!

My point was, and I apologize if it was not clear enough, my point was that all these Gospels, the first part of each were written about Jesus before his death, burial and resurrection and therefore everyone then, including Jesus was fully under the LAW!

 

[Brighthouse]

I think all of you, are very smart in here!! So instead of arguing on either side,let me ask one question?? PLEASE!!! LOL Would you say,that those who believer we cannot lose our salvation,for any reason!! Does this mean we do not have the right to discard our salvation either?? I know I know!! why would we want to!! understand! The only point though to this question is can't we? If you say we cannot,then would that also mean we cannot sin either? Not a smack now!! just a question! Because if we cannot sin because we are saved,then why have any fruit? what is the point? thanks!

 

[KingdomSeeker]

Can you loose something you dont have yet? Jesus is the salvation way...we are on the path TO salvation, we will INHERIT Salvation.

1 Peter 1:5 "who are kept guarded by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

So we are converted to Jesus, and HE gives us the faith, in order to adhere to The Word till the end. We are grafted in to the vine at Conversion, given the Comforter at total submission...and Salvation at the end. Falling away...remember the great falling away is comming(or is here) You cant Fall away if you were never there in the first place...Satan was IN Gods presance...and fell away... So those who come before the Lord now, can still fall away...Eternal security is Just that eternal..but we havent reached eternity yet.

Hebrews 5:9 "and having been perfected, became to all them that obey him, author of eternal salvation"

ALL that Obey him. Obediance...SO if your one of those people that think "Oh I said a prayer 20 years ago, I go to church every week, now im just gunna sit here watch some football and wait for the rapture"

Even if there IS a rapture...youll be left here...watching football...since that takes presedence over Christ anyway...here enjoy...

ok haha that was a bit harsh...but you understand...So no you cant loose your salvation...becasue it is NOT Yours yet, it is still the Authors, and HE will give you salvation as your inheretence once you're a man(see 1 Corintians 13) When you are Matured, made complete, Perfected THEN you will be saved, and that can NOT happen untill Once we meet Jehovah.

Granted Jehovah knows who is his, he knows our herts and HIS Church is allready sealed. But Only HE knows who is sealed...we dont.

 

[JDFree]

The spirit in Jesus, as you say, is God, is the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God and Jesus is Holy Spirit; they are all in one.

So YOU, think that the view that Jesus was speaking to the world under the law and that his sacrifice had not come into effect yet is weak.

Since when is the truth weak?
I am not sure where you come up with all this but please, with your knowledge, what does these two passages say:

Mark 15:37-38
" And Jesus uttered a loud cry, and breathed his last. And the curtain was torn in two, from top to bottom.


Hebrews 9:15-17
15Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.16For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive.

I was trying to get the message across that Jesus, being God, the Son of God, and filled with the Holy Spirit was/is able to speak simultaneously to all men for all time. Because He says, "...I will write my LAWS in their hearts and in their minds..." it seems to me he just may be talking about His LAWS being written in the heart and in the mind. He doesn't say, "I will write my SALVATION in their hearts and in their minds." or "I will write my eternal security in my sacrifice in their hearts and in their minds."

What else I'm saying is that just because somebody went forward for the Altar Call at the age of 7 doesn't guarantee them entry into heaven if they live on through the age of accountability and through adulthood. There's far, far more to it, and every single book of the Bible addresses some aspect of the 'more', old or new Testament.

Going along with that, it's my deep conviction in my heart that this whole thing of Jesus is not a matter of sitting up in the box seats with our binoculars viewing the contest occurring on the field below. I believe that this thing of Spiritual Warfare is deadly serious and we face a tremendous adversary, against whom we are entirely helpless without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, strengthening by often fellowhip with Christian brothers and sisters, and by their prayers, immersion in the Word as often as possible, and by putting on the whole armor of God, so that we may withstand.

Maybe for a lot of folks it's all just going along okay fine. For me it has been a life and death struggle, meaning loss of everything I had, as loss of so much I cannot even describe between tangible and intangible, plus continuous physical attack of every type 24/7/365 for the last 8 years, direct attempts to take my life as in 3 attempted murders on my person, and a constant daily battle to stay right before my Lord God Almighty within His Perfect Sacrifice for my immortal soul. Example: I chose total celibacy. Okay, how many of you guys have a drop-dead gorgeous total stranger female show up and start stripping down to buck naked right in front of you, saying, "Come on, honey, how about it, there's nobody else around....?"!!!!! Yep, fact!

For me, it's a battle, moment by moment 24 hours a day, but THANK GOD my side always wins, because Jesus won at the cross....

All books in Scripture address Christian conduct and action, not kicking back and coasting through the pearly gates. If there's so very much in there about our conduct that should be a real big hint that there may be a whole lot more to it than just claiming His precious name and trusting Him to do all the work to keep us out of sin and eternal death and saying, "I'm eternally secure, it's a done deal!" I believe Paul addresses it best, as I mentioned previously: "Therefore, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling...."

 

[JDFree]

These are generally accepted dates for penning the books of Scripture. While researching these again I stumbled across the word I was looking for regarding the abuse of 'Eternal Security' and that is 'Antinomianism'. It's referenced in 2 Peter, second chapter. Certainly not saying at all that this applies to all who believe in Eternal Security; however it does apply to some who run on a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card mentality.

Matthew - AD 58-68
Mark - AD 67-68
Luke - AD 58-60
John - AD 90
Acts - AD 61
Romans - AD 56
1 Corinthians - AD 54-55
2 Corinthians - AD 55-56
Galatians - AD 55-56
Ephesians - AD 60-62
Philippians - AD 60-62
Colossians - AD 60-62
1 Thessalonians - AD 50-51 *
2 Thessalonians - AD 51-52
1 Timothy - AD 66
2 Timothy - AD 66
Titus - AD 64
Philemon - AD 62
Hebrews - AD 66 [Pauline] or before AD 70
James - AD 46 or before AD 62
1 Pete - AD 60's
2 Pete - AD 60's Antinomians
1 John - AD 85-90
2 John - AD 85-90
3 John - AD 85-90
Jude - AD <70
Revelation - AD 90?

 

[MightyAngel1]

I most definitely whole-heartedly believed in Eternal Security before. Heck, it puts the "P" in TULIP and, as I am a 5 point Calvinist, I promote it all the way. The two of us just always seem to have areas of contention in every one of our posts so it was nice to have 1 entire post that I could agree on and not debate over.

Howdy Rojoloco!

Well, There is one Powerful Point in the Bible that is so refreshing to me when I think about this point. Jesus Christ was NEVER a Calvinist. Jesus Christ was, is, and shall ever be the Son of the Most High God.

Secondly, John Calvin was one of many Believers in Jesus Christ in his day. And, When He stands before Jesus Christ on his judgment day, He will have a lot of explaining to do.

What would really be amazing on his judgment day is for John Calvin to find out from Jesus Christ that limited atonement did not apply to him.

Personally, I think it is too bad that he cannot come back and tell us what he learned. I have often wondered about the look on his face when Jesus told him everything.

Why would I say that? According to the Seed Covenant of Abraham spoken by God Himself, John Calvin is a member of the Seed of Abraham multiplied as the stars of the heaven.

And, According to the Seed Covenant of Abraham spoken by God Himself, Limited Atonement is only for the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth.

Also, Abraham and Jacob are not the same person.

If I was a gambling man, I would bet he would throw a temper tantrum right in front of Jesus Christ. I say again...If I was a gambling man.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike