Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?

Tusk Barnes · Nov 18, 2010

El Hombre viejo said:
The fact of the matter is, Tusk, that you don't have the cojones to accept Jesus on faith. You think we're all a bunch of dupes and less than realistic. But the truth is You're afraid and dishonest with yourself. It takes courage to put your life into somebody's hands

I'm not doing my job? I'm doing exactly as I'm supposed to

I've certainly done no mocking. I simply see no value in faith. Perhaps you can explain what makes faith so great, because I cannot yet see it.

Faith is belief that is not based on evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in it's truth. By definition, even if we hold a belief "in faith," we still have no reason to believe it is actually true. It's just wish-thinking. How are cajones necessary for that? That sounds neither courageous nor rational.

Making unfounded claims about the fears and dishonesty of a person you don't know is making you look insecure and fearful yourself. Please talk to me like a human being. You're making Jesus look bad, and you're making yourself look bad. If you have really read any of my posts, surely you've noticed that I have not attacked anyone here. I have not said anything that could be read as an appeal to ridicule. I care about you guys more than you think you have to care about me. Bet. I love you guys more because no One is telling me that I have to or I should. I love you guys because I know that I too was once shackled to a Cross and thought I was free. I see what I once was in the people on this forum.

I don't think anyone here is a dupe. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

What is your job?

Well, what charge did Jesus give you? To love your neighbor as yourself. I for one, do not feel very loved. You're not doing so great. Another charge is to take the Gospel to all people and all nations. Well, by God, you have the gift of the Internet, and here is your chance to do just that. If anyone could be considered lost, I guess it's me, and yet you choose to imply I am foolish, instead of presenting your case. You are failing, and you are blaming me for it.

C'mon.

El Hombre viejo · Nov 18, 2010

Tusk Barnes said:
I've certainly done no mocking. I simply see no value in faith. Perhaps you can explain what makes faith so great, because I cannot yet see it.

Faith is belief that is not based on evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in it's truth. By definition, even if we hold a belief "in faith," we still have no reason to believe it is actually true. It's just wish-thinking. How are cajones necessary for that? That sounds neither courageous nor rational.

Making unfounded claims about the fears and dishonesty of a person you don't know is making you look insecure and fearful yourself. Please talk to me like a human being. You're making Jesus look bad, and you're making yourself look bad. If you have really read any of my posts, surely you've noticed that I have not attacked anyone here. I have not said anything that could be read as an appeal to ridicule. I care about you guys more than you think you have to care about me. Bet. I love you guys more because no One is telling me that I have to or I should. I love you guys because I know that I too was once shackled to a Cross and thought I was free. I see what I once was in the people on this forum.

I don't think anyone here is a dupe. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

What is your job?

Well, what charge did Jesus give you? To love your neighbor as yourself. I for one, do not feel very loved. You're not doing so great. Another charge is to take the Gospel to all people and all nations. Well, by God, you have the gift of the Internet, and here is your chance to do just that. If anyone could be considered lost, I guess it's me, and yet you choose to imply I am foolish, instead of presenting your case. You are failing, and you are blaming me for it.

C'mon.

Ok. Tusk Did your mother ever tell you she loves you? Did you believe her? Probably. Did she present evidence? "Look Tusk, I'm doing this to show you that I love you'. Your dad promised you a car if you graduated with good marks. You believed him. Trust essentially is faith. You trust that God is as good as His Word. Can you do that?

Tusk Barnes · Nov 18, 2010

El Hombre viejo said:
Ok. Tusk Did your mother ever tell you she loves you?

Yes.

El Hombre viejo said:
Did you believe her?

Yes.

El Hombre viejo said:
Did she present evidence?

Everyday. In the form of her presence, her hugs, her cooking, her teaching, her concern with the goings-on of my everyday life, her tangibility, etc.

El Hombre viejo said:
"Look Tusk, I'm doing this to show you that I love you'. Your dad promised you a car if you graduated with good marks. You believed him. Trust essentially is faith.

I won't say I necessarily disagree with this last sentence, although I am not sure how you arrived at that equivocation. The way I see it, trust is given after it has been earned previously; we know whether someone is trustworthy by the evidences (or "fruits" if you prefer) that support or go against the notion of trust. Whereas faith is given or asked for without providing evidence that the one (or One in this case) asking is actually worthy of said faith (see definition in previous post). Perhaps I have misunderstood you, though. Could you perhaps clarify?

El Hombre viejo said:
You trust that God is as good as His Word. Can you do that?

I absolutely could!...If I were given a reason--even just one--to believe that God actually existed. It's not so difficult to trust my parents. Faith is not a factor here, because evidence of their existence is present. For example, they are tangible, audible, visible (during holidays at the moment, at least, haha), and basically real. They have met the burden of proof as far as presenting their existence as the reason for my own existence. In contrast, God, god, or gods are invisible, inaudible, untraceable, and incorporeal. Since He, he/she, or they cannot be observed or verified, I have no reason (yet anyway) to believe any really exist. This is the same reason I (and undoubtedly you) don't believe in fairies, Santa Claus, leprechauns, dragons, or the gods of any other religion.

Keep in mind, I am completely open to ANY idea (even the existence of a god or God or gods), so long as objective evidence for it can be provided. All I need is a reason to believe. And at the moment, I have none.

The ball is in your court.

El Hombre viejo · Nov 18, 2010

Tusk Barnes said:
Yes.

Yes.

Everyday. In the form of her presence, her hugs, her cooking, her teaching, her concern with the goings-on of my everyday life, her tangibility, etc.

I won't say I necessarily disagree with this last sentence, although I am not sure how you arrived at that equivocation. The way I see it, trust is given after it has been earned previously; we know whether someone is trustworthy by the evidences (or "fruits" if you prefer) that support or go against the notion of trust. Whereas faith is given or asked for without providing evidence that the one (or One in this case) asking is actually worthy of said faith (see definition in previous post). Perhaps I have misunderstood you, though. Could you perhaps clarify?

I absolutely could!...If I were given a reason--even just one--to believe that God actually existed. It's not so difficult to trust my parents. Faith is not a factor here, because evidence of their existence is present. For example, they are tangible, audible, visible (during holidays at the moment, at least, haha), and basically real. They have met the burden of proof as far as presenting their existence as the reason for my own existence. In contrast, God, god, or gods are invisible, inaudible, untraceable, and incorporeal. Since He, he/she, or they cannot be observed or verified, I have no reason (yet anyway) to believe any really exist. This is the same reason I (and undoubtedly you) don't believe in fairies, Santa Claus, leprechauns, dragons, or the gods of any other religion.

Keep in mind, I am completely open to ANY idea (even the existence of a god or God or gods), so long as objective evidence for it can be provided. All I need is a reason to believe. And at the moment, I have none.

The ball is in your court.

Tusk Here is a short essay a lady wrote as evidence of God. I think you'll find it interesting..

Does God exist? Here are six straight-forward reasons to believe
that God is really there.
By Marilyn Adamson
Just once wouldn't you love for someone to
simply show you the evidence for God's
existence? No arm-twisting. No statements of,
"You just have to believe." Well, here is an
attempt to candidly offer some of the reasons
which suggest that God exists.
But first consider this. If a person opposes
even the possibility of there being a God, then
any evidence can be rationalized or explained
away. It is like if someone refuses to believe that people have walked on the
moon, then no amount of information is going to change their thinking.
Photographs of astronauts walking on the moon, interviews with the
astronauts, moon rocks...all the evidence would be worthless, because the
person has already concluded that people cannot go to the moon.
When it comes to the possibility of God's existence, the Bible says that there
are people who have seen sufficient evidence, but they have suppressed the
truth about God.1 On the other hand, for those who want to know God if he is
there, he says, "You will seek me and find me; when you seek me with all
your heart, I will be found by you."2 Before you look at the facts surrounding
God's existence, ask yourself, If God does exist, would I want to know him?
Here then, are some reasons to consider...
1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate
Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end.
But here are a few:
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity
holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about
50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere
would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its
atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only
known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to
sustain plant, animal and human life.
The Earth is located the right distance from
the sun. Consider the temperature swings we
encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120
degrees. If the Earth were any further away
from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer
and we would burn up. Even a fractional
variance in the Earth's position to the sun
would make life on Earth impossible. The
Earth remains this perfect distance from the
sun while it rotates around the sun at a
speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also
rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly
warmed and cooled every day.
And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its
gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so
ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet our massive oceans are restrained
from spilling over across the continents.4
Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can
survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water
(about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the
characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:
It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to
live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our
bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.
Water is a universal solvent. This property of
water means that thousands of chemicals,
minerals and nutrients can be carried
throughout our bodies and into the smallest
blood vessels.5
Water is also chemically neutral. Without
affecting the makeup of the substances it
carries, water enables food, medicines and
minerals to be absorbed and used by the
body.
Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow
upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of
even the tallest trees.
Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth,
there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then

El Hombre viejo · Nov 18, 2010

Water is a universal solvent. This property of
water means that thousands of chemicals,
minerals and nutrients can be carried
throughout our bodies and into the smallest
blood vessels.5
Water is also chemically neutral. Without
affecting the makeup of the substances it
carries, water enables food, medicines and
minerals to be absorbed and used by the
body.
Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow
upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of
even the tallest trees.
Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.
Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth,
there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then

distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean
waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the
wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is
a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system
of recycled and reused water.6
The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of
information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the
temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the
sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of your
keyboard. Your brain holds and processes
all your emotions, thoughts and memories.
At the same time your brain keeps track of
the ongoing functions of your body like your
breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger
and movement of the muscles in your
hands.
The human brain processes more than a
million messages a second.7 Your brain
weighs the importance of all this data,
filtering out the relatively unimportant. This
screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your
world. The brain functions differently than other organs. There is an
intelligence to it, the ability to reason, to produce feelings, to dream and plan,
to take action, and relate to other people.
The eye...can distinguish among seven million colors. It has automatic
focusing and handles an astounding 1.5 million messages -- simultaneously.8
Evolution focuses on mutations and changes from and within existing
organisms. Yet evolution alone does not fully explain the initial source of the
eye or the brain -- the start of living organisms from nonliving matter.
2. Does God exist? The universe had a start - what caused it?
Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous
explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the
singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start
of space, and even the initial start of time itself.
Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed
of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first
instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe
came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment
of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot
find out what caused that to happen."9
Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this
explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees
Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."10
The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that?
Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter.

El Hombre viejo · Nov 18, 2010

3. Does God exist? The universe operates by uniform laws of nature.
Why does it?
Much of life may seem uncertain, but look at what we can count on day after
day: gravity remains consistent, a hot cup of coffee left on a counter will get
cold, the earth rotates in the same 24 hours, and the speed of light doesn't
change -- on earth or in galaxies far from us.
How is it that we can identify laws of nature that never change? Why is the
universe so orderly, so reliable?
"The greatest scientists have been struck by how strange this is. There is no
logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by
the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that
the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a
universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or
even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."12
Richard Feynman, a Nobel Prize winner for quantum electrodynamics, said,
"Why nature is mathematical is a mystery...The fact that there are rules at all
is a kind of miracle."13
4. Does God exist? The DNA code informs, programs a cell's behavior.
All instruction, all teaching, all training comes
with intent. Someone who writes an
instruction manual does so with purpose. Did
you know that in every cell of our bodies
there exists a very detailed instruction code,
much like a miniature computer program? As
you may know, a computer program is made
up of ones and zeros, like this:
110010101011000. The way they are
arranged tell the computer program what to
do. The DNA code in each of our cells is very
similar. It's made up of four chemicals that
scientists abbreviate as A, T, G, and C. These are arranged in the human
cell like this: CGTGTGACTCGCTCCTGAT and so on. There are three
billions of these letters in every human cell!!
Well, just like you can program your phone to beep for specific reasons, DNA

instructs the cell. DNA is a three-billionlettered
program telling the cell to act in a
certain way. It is a full instruction manual.14
Why is this so amazing? One has to
ask....how did this information program wind
up in each human cell? These are not just
chemicals. These are chemicals that instruct,
that code in a very detailed way exactly how
the person's body should develop.
Natural, biological causes are completely
lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You
cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone
intentionally constructing it.
5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is
constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.
I was an atheist at one time. And like most atheists, the issue of people
believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would
spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't
believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I
attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people...to help
them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had
another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply
curious to see if they could convince me otherwise. Part of my quest was to
become free from the question of God. If I could conclusively prove to
believers that they were wrong, then the issue is off the table, and I would
be free to go about my life.
I didn't realize that the reason the topic of God

El Hombre viejo · Nov 18, 2010

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w

unctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w

oNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/> <w

ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> weighed so heavily on my mind, was because
God was pressing the issue. I have come to
find out that God wants to be known. He
created us with the intention that we would
know him. He has surrounded us with evidence
of himself and he keeps the question of his
existence squarely before us. It was as if I
couldn't escape thinking about the possibility of
God. In fact, the day I chose to acknowledge
God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the
underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is
because God is actively pursuing them.
I am not the only one who has experienced this. Malcolm Muggeridge,
socialist and philosophical author, wrote, "I had a notion that somehow,
besides questing, I was being pursued." C.S. Lewis said he remembered,
"...night after night, feeling whenever my mind lifted even for a second from
my work, the steady, unrelenting approach of Him whom I so earnestly
desired not to meet. I gave in, and admitted that God was God, and knelt and
prayed: perhaps, that night, the most dejected and reluctant convert in all of
England."
Lewis went on to write a book titled, "Surprised by Joy" as a result of knowing
God. I too had no expectations other than rightfully admitting God's
existence. Yet over the following several months, I became amazed by his
love for me.
6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is
the clearest, most specific picture of God revealing himself to us.
Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that
Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as
teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God.
Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He
said God exists and you're looking at him. Though he talked about his Father
in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union,
unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had
seen the Father, anyone who believed in him, believed in the Father.
He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in
darkness, but will have the light of life."15 He claimed attributes belonging
only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of
sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven.
Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed
people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth."
He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but
through me."16
What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people
can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf,
even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over
objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several
thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a
lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People
everywhere followed Jesus, because he constantly met their needs, doing
the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you
should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.17
Jesus Christ showed God to be gentle, loving, aware of our selfcenteredness
and shortcomings, yet deeply wanting a relationship with us.
Jesus revealed that although God views us as sinners, worthy of his
punishment, his love for us ruled and God came up with a different plan. God

himself took on the form of man and accepted the punishment for our sin on
our behalf. Sounds ludicrous? Perhaps, but many loving fathers would gladly
trade places with their child in a cancer ward if they could. The Bible says
that the reason we would love God is because he first loved us.
Jesus died in our place so we could be forgiven. Of all the religions known to
humanity, only through Jesus will you see God reaching toward humanity

El Hombre viejo · Nov 18, 2010

providing a way for us to have a relationship with him. Jesus proves a divine
heart of love, meeting our needs, drawing us to himself. Because of Jesus'
death and resurrection, he offers us a new life today. We can be forgiven,
fully accepted by God and genuinely loved by God. He says, "I have loved
you with an everlasting love, therefore I have continued my faithfulness to
you."18 This is God, in action.
Does God exist? If you want to know, investigate Jesus Christ. We're told
that "God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever
believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."19
God does not force us to believe in him, though he could. Instead, he has
provided sufficient proof of his existence for us to willingly respond to him.
The earth's perfect distance from the sun, the unique chemical properties of
water, the human brain, DNA, the number of people who attest to knowing
God, the gnawing in our hearts and minds to determine if God is there, the
willingness for God to be known through Jesus Christ. If you need to know
more about Jesus and reasons to believe in him, please see: Beyond Blind
Faith.
If you want to begin a relationship with God now, you can.
This is your decision, no coercion here. But if you want to be forgiven by God
and come into a relationship with him, you can do so right now by asking him
to forgive you and come into your life. Jesus said, "Behold, I stand at the
door [of your heart] and knock. He who hears my voice and opens the door, I
will come into him [or her]."20 If you want to do this, but aren't sure how to put
it into words, this may help: "Jesus, thank you for dying for my sins. You
know my life and that I need to be forgiven. I ask you to forgive me right now
and come into my life. I want to know you in a real way. Come into my life
now. Thank you that you wanted a relationship with me. Amen."
God views your relationship with him as permanent. Referring to all those
who believe in him, Jesus Christ said of us, "I know them, and they follow
me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall
snatch them out of my hand."21
So, does God exist? Looking at all these facts, one can conclude that a
loving God does exist and can be known in an intimate, personal way. If you
need more information about Jesus' claim to divinity, or about God's
existence, or if you have similar important questions, please email us.
------------------
About the Author: As a former atheist, Marilyn Adamson found it difficult to
refute the continuously answered prayers and quality of life of a close friend.
In challenging the beliefs of her friend, Marilyn was amazed to learn the
wealth of objective evidence pointing to the existence of God. After about a
year of persistent questioning, she responded to God's offer to come into her
life and has found faith in Him to be constantly substantiated and greatly
rewarding.
(1) Romans 1:19-21
(2) Jeremiah 29:13-14
(3) R.E.D. Clark, Creation (London: Tyndale Press, 1946), p. 20
(4) The Wonders of God's Creation, Moody Institute of Science (Chicago, IL)
(5) Ibid.
(6) Ibid.
(7) Ibid.
(8) Hugh Davson, Physiology of the Eye, 5th ed (New York: McGraw Hill,
1991)
(9) Robert Jastrow; "Message from Professor Robert Jastrow";
LeaderU.com; 2002.
(10) Steven Weinberg; The First Three Minutes: A Modern View of the Origin
of the Universe; (Basic Books,1988); p 5.
(11) omitted
(12) Dinesh D'Souza, What's So Great about Christianity; (Regnery
Publishing, Inc, 2007, chapter 11).
(13) Richard Feynman, The Meaning of It All: Thoughts of a Citizen-Scientist
(New York: BasicBooks, 1998), 43.
(14) Francis S. Collins, director of the Human Genome Project, and author of
The Language of God, (Free Press, New York, NY), 2006
(15) John 8:12
(16) John 14:6
(17) John 14:11
(18) Jeremiah 31:3
(19) John 3:16
(20) Revelation 3:20
(21) John 10:27-29
This article is from www.EveryStudent.com. Permission is granted

El Hombre viejo · Nov 18, 2010

Sorry its so long but it is a good read

Here is another

I'm giving you these because these folks are more knowledgeable and better writers than I.

Tusk Barnes · Nov 19, 2010

Excellent! You'll have you give me a minute to respond, but thank you.

Before I respond to this flood of posts though, I'm curious about what convinced you of a god's and than The God's existence. Surely you believed before you read these texts, and these texts only served to bolster your belief.

So what was good enough for you?

El Hombre viejo · Nov 19, 2010

Tusk Barnes said:
Excellent! You'll have you give me a minute to respond, but thank you.

Before I respond to this flood of posts though, I'm curious about what convinced you of a god's and than The God's existence. Surely you believed before you read these texts, and these texts only served to bolster your belief.

So what was good enough for you?

You're asking what convinced me there was a God?

I've always known. Since my first memories I remember talking to Him and His answers. He healed me, protected me through a hellish childhood, provided for me..... He has always been His own proof for me. He has always been more real to me than anything physical

I think you'll find the second read most fascinating Tusk.

JDFree · Nov 19, 2010

Back at pg. 17 Tusk Barnes wrote: "I've certainly done no mocking. I simply see no value in faith. Perhaps you can explain what makes faith so great, because I cannot yet see it.

Faith is belief that is not based on evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in it's truth. By definition, even if we hold a belief "in faith," we still have no reason to believe it is actually true. It's just wish-thinking. How are cajones necessary for that? That sounds neither courageous nor rational.

I won't say I necessarily disagree with this last sentence, although I am not sure how you arrived at that equivocation. The way I see it, trust is given after it has been earned previously; we know whether someone is trustworthy by the evidences (or "fruits" if you prefer) that support or go against the notion of trust. Whereas faith is given or asked for without providing evidence that the one (or One in this case) asking is actually worthy of said faith (see definition in previous post).

I absolutely could!...If I were given a reason--even just one--to believe that God actually existed. It's not so difficult to trust my parents. Faith is not a factor here, because evidence of their existence is present. For example, they are tangible, audible, visible (during holidays at the moment, at least, haha), and basically real. They have met the burden of proof as far as presenting their existence as the reason for my own existence. In contrast, God, god, or gods are invisible, inaudible, untraceable, and incorporeal. Since He, he/she, or they cannot be observed or verified, I have no reason (yet anyway) to believe any really exist. This is the same reason I (and undoubtedly you) don't believe in fairies, Santa Claus, leprechauns, dragons, or the gods of any other religion.

Keep in mind, I am completely open to ANY idea (even the existence of a god or God or gods), so long as objective evidence for it can be provided. All I need is a reason to believe. And at the moment, I have none.

The ball is in your court."

Some of the above is not quite correct in regard to God, who gave us the Bible. In it we find astonishing evidence of the validity of Faith, where "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." How's that? The nation of Israel!

Long before your time but recently an impossible thing happened: the nation of Israel returned to their native land and reclaimed it in 1949, EXACTLY as ONLY GOD said they would!

This is after their being taken captive as an entire nation numerous times in history, and having been carried away to distant lands and forced into assimilation of other cultures. Plus several of the most powerful nations on earth at the time, or people groups, did and do attempt to wipe them completely out of existence! Just a quick glance at the horrors of Holocaust reveals much! Even now it's attempted by some to call it a lie, a figment: but for a fact we still have mountains of verifiable proofs and bared arms with death camp tatoos. Why to cover it up, dismiss it? Because it irrefutably PROVES the God of Israel!

The thing is, as a people the most precious thing to them is their Holy Scripture, literally handed down from Moses. By it they have an uninterrupted record of the astounding Might of the God & Father of Israel and every Jew. In it are countless prophecies fulfilled throughout the centuries, some still awaiting fulfillment. In it is the actual birth record of the nation before it was a nation, traced seamlesly back to the very first being ever created, Adam! Within that you can go to Israel, or even to many cities in America, and simply ask, "Hey, is all that goofy stuff in this stupid Torah thing really true?" After you get out of the hospital you will have your answer: "YES!"

Israel as a nation testifies every ticking instant of ever day that again, "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." because the Holy Word of the only True Living God Almighty is the very root and substance of their existence, and THEY will testify to that!

How do we know their testimony is factual? Simple; because just like all of us, they had mothers and fathers. Those mothers & fathers had laps, and their children sat on them. The truths of the days of old were lovingly and faithfully recited, as a living testimony that it was true. "Your father is - - - , and he is descended from - - - , who is a descendent of - - -, who is a descendent of..." and so has it always been, all the way back. And then, "...and I am a descendent of..." etc. That by a mother's and father's love, who wouldn't lie about it to their own children, the living Truth of the only True Living God Almighty is known as verifiable fact even by the actual flesh and blood of their generations and family tree!

It may be called, 'Faith Alive' by its living substance and living evidence of things hoped for, and fulfilled beyond imagination! In addition, if that wasn't enough: continual archaelogical discoveries over the centuries prove Scripture TRUE where PROPHETIC verses that were called lying fairy tales were suddenly proven 100% true by the tip of a shovel in the arrid desert's sands! Personal names unknown except for being quoted in Scripture are found etched in stone, people groups unknown but for Torah are proven as historically accurate, events described in Torah are found etched or carved in stone, and ancient manuscripts such as Dead Sea Scrolls, sealed undisturbed in clay pots for centuy after century, stop the mouths of mockers. In addition, the historical records of other nations continually verify that it is true, as they precisely describe the same times & events just as the Torah does, which records are highly prized and protected nationally for their historical accuracy. Therefore a second independent verification to the veracity of the Truth of Scripture.

Faith? Yes. Faith as 'FAITH ALIVE!' breathing, walking, talking, and still bearing children to add to God's Chosen people the Jews!

Checkmate.

Jaareshiah · Nov 20, 2010

Three days before his death, in answering a question by his apostles concerning "the sign of (his) presence and of the conclusion of the system of things"(Matt 24:3), Jesus said that "he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved."(Matt 24:13) Some three years earlier, Jesus had said to his apostles, that "you will be objects of hatred by all people on account of my name; but he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved."(Matt 10:22)

In addition, Jesus said that "by endurance on your part you will acquire your souls."(Luke 21:19) At Revelation 2:10, Jesus told the "congregation in Smyrna", that "the Devil will keep on throwing some of you into prison that you may be fully put to the test....Prove yourself faithful even to death, and I will give you the crown of life."

Thus, only by a Christian loyally enduring any trial or tribulation down the end, either to the end of this system of things or to their death, can these have hope of being saved and gaining everlasting life on earth as subjects of God's kingdom (Rev 7:9) or in heaven as "kings and priests."(Rev 5:10)

At Ezekiel 33, God speaks of the "righteous one" and says: "When I say to the righteous one: “You will positively keep living,” and he himself actually trusts in his own righteousness and does injustice, all his own righteous acts will not be remembered, but for his injustice that he has done—for this he will die."(Eze 33:13)

On the other hand, God says to the "wicked one": "And when I say to the wicked one: “You will positively die,” and he actually turns back from his sin and carries on justice and righteousness, and the wicked one returns the very thing pledged, pays back the very things taken by robbery, and actually walks in the very statutes of life by not doing injustice, he will positively keep living. He will not die. None of his sins with which he has sinned will be remembered against him. Justice and righteousness are what he has carried on. He will positively keep living.’ "(Eze 33:14-16)

The apostle Paul wrote to the Hebrews, that "you have need of endurance, in order that, after you have done the will of God, you may receive the fulfillment of the promise."(Heb 10:36) Paul further tells them, quoting from Habakkuk 2:4: "But my righteous one will live by reason of faith," and "if he shrinks back, my soul (God's) has no pleasure in him." Hence, Paul concludes: "Now we are not the sort that shrink back to destruction, but the sort that have faith to the preserving alive of the soul."(Heb 10:38, 39)

Hence, the religious belief of some that hold "once saved always saved" has no Biblical basis, but rather those who become "righteous" in God's eyes and remain as such, not ' shrinking back', are the ones who will be saved. Salvation thus can be lost by disobedience, just as with Adam and Eve, who were created perfect by God.(Gen 1:31; 3:17-19)

JDFree · Nov 20, 2010

I find in Philippians 2:12, in the words of Paul speaking to saved Christian believers in Philippi:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Pretty hard to wring 'Once saved always saved' out of that! I detest the potential for depravity in that erroneous doctrine and like many, have witnessed it first hand. I have gotten the distinct impression throughout the new testament Scripture that we are admonished & warned again and again, "Straighten up & fly right!". That's pretty much a waste of words if there isn't an, "...or else!" following?

Tusk Barnes · Nov 20, 2010

The "Or else" is the thing I have a problem with.

It sounds petty when we hear it in the movies, and it sounds petty coming from an all-powerful being.

Why would He have to threaten us in order to coerce us to believe in Him?

rojoloco · Nov 20, 2010

Tusk Barnes said:
Very impressive Rojoloco. Very impressive indeed. Please accept my apologies, next time I'll be sure to point out my references to make things a little less arduous.

No worries. Just thought I'd point it out. It was definitely a challenge trying to find them all though.

Tusk Barnes said:
I don't have to many problems with this apologia, but I do have a few. Geisler points out that a contradiction is not necessarily present because 1 is a subset of 2, and so we can safely assume that there were probably 2 present at the tomb, and depending on the author's stylistics either one or two were focused on. However, by this same reasoning we have no way of knowing exactly how many were present. For all we know it could have been as many as 50 men present at the tomb, and certainly still two men were there...it never fails. So by your own reasoning, how reliable is your own acceptance that "only" two were present?

The great thing is that it doesn't matter how many were present. It is clear there is no contradiction so I am content letting this one be as the amount of people is not what the author is trying to convey. If there is no contradiction, it leaves me free to actually listen to what is being said instead of getting sidetracked with a point the author is not trying to make and is no longer present to address.

Tusk Barnes said:
Actually, if read in the original Greek, John makes it a point to state that Jesus was not helped at all. It is not an omission, it is a blatant correction of the other three gospels. As John was written later, and is undoubtedly the most evangelical of the Gospels, the author wanted to portray Jesus as more supernatural or divine than any of the other three, John was attempting to make Jesus look tough enough to do it all on his own. It's almost as if he was trying to quiet the other Gospels of the notion that Jesus ever needed help. This is still a contradiction.

Care to give the Greek lesson? I know I'm not seeing it in my research. Sounds more like some skeptic who was trying to sound smart by using the phrase "in the original Greek" and then going on with some half-cocked, shameful excuse for research so that countless others could read his misinformation and run with it all over the internet. This may not be the case here but I see it all the time. If one is going to claim "in the original Greek," I am going to ask for the Greek lesson. I know I always provide a brief one whenever I claim the phrase. All we see is that Jesus carried his own cross. From what we can gather, he carried his own cross as he left Pilate. He continued to carry it for a while until his body gave out and he could not keep up with the pace of the centurion. From there, he carried his own cross with some help for the remainder of the journey. We can't just jump straight to claiming of contradiction, omission, or correction. First, we must piece it together and see if anything blatantly contradicts. As we can see, it does not. It actually compliments.

Tusk Barnes said:
You are dodging the question, and trying to paint a pretty picture about trust instead. The fact remains, one verse says "Take NO staff (not staffs)," While other verses suggest taking only a staff. If we are in disagreement here, it is at least because the translations are faulty.

Actually, it only says that in certain translations. In fact, if you look at the KJV, it even says staves. This is the plural form of staff. I am not a Greek whiz so don't hold me to it but, on a few Greek grammar sites (unfortunately, not allowed to post links on this site for some reason), it says it is the accusative plural feminine. If this is the case, it would not only not be a contradiction but it would also be perfectly in accord with the other Gospels. Once again, it would be a skeptic's lack of understanding or research that would be the problem.

Tusk Barnes said:
This again is a numbers problem and a demonstration of how easily even ridiculous numbers can be read into Scripture without necessarily contradicting it. It could have just as likely been, Mary, Mary Magdalene, Salome, Jeff, Dave, Susan, Robert, Nancy, and Pat too, right? Not necessarily a contradiction, sure...but an inaccuracy? Yes.

Not a contradiction. Not even an inaccuracy. Possibly an inconsistency but even then, it is consistent with itself. Being that they are 4 separate accounts, inconsistencies with each other are to be expected and, so long as no contradiction arises from it, it is perfectly acceptable.

Tusk Barnes said:
That sounds great on the face of it. Who doesn't love hearing about a mother taking care of her offspring...but you're reading things back into Scripture. The mother may be consoling her offspring, but that's both an anthropomorphism of a donkey, and it's also not what the Bible says.

As implied earlier, we will never really know why the mother was there. What we can know is that Jesus only rode the colt. Again, it is sort of a silly mental image to imagine Jesus riding both a mother and a colt (probably 2 different sizes) at the same exact time. It just doesn't make sense. As a result, we can be assured the mother was there for a different reason than to be ridden. However, we can only speculate as to what that reason may have been. Thankfully, the reason isn't really important which is probably why the author didn't bother to share it with us.

Tusk Barnes said:
Again, this is not what the Bible says. You are reading things into Scripture.

Are you not reading into things in claiming it is a contradiction? If it said he hung from a tree and never crashed to rocks or vice versa, it would be a contradiction. However, it never says this. It simply says both things happened but it is spread over 2 different accounts. If I am reading into Scripture by saying he crashed onto rocks after hanging from the tree, you are also reading into Scripture by saying only one event happened but not the other.

Tusk Barnes said:
So in one case Luke is saying Jesus was carried up to heaven on the day he resurrected. And in Acts, Luke says he stuck around until the Pentecost 40 days later. We know that Luke said both of these things. But which one is true?

Luke never says it occurred on the same day as the resurrection. He only says after leading people out to Bethany and blessing them, he ascended. He never gives a duration between the two events. However, in Acts, he does give this time duration; 40 days.

Tusk Barnes said:
From the looks of things? Again, this is not what the Bible says.

Yet it isn't what the Bible says didn't happen either. If we trust the Scripture to be the inspired Word that it says it is, it makes absolute perfect sense that they were both reviling him at one point and then, at some point before Jesus' death, one of them stopped reviling him and came to trust in who he was. While it never flat out says this is how it went down, it also never says this is not what happened and it does make perfect sense with the information we are given. It's like piecing together multiple accounts from multiple witnesses. Police collect all the evidence, throw out what is inconsistent, and piece together the rest to get a clear picture. Only in this case, nothing needs to be thrown out because it all fits perfectly as it stands. Not a contradiction in sight!

Tusk Barnes said:
Curious how God encourages us to trust in Him through all suffering in some cases, and to trust in the numbing effects of alcohol in other situations.

Nowhere does it say we are to trust in alcohol. This is you reading into Scripture. There is nothing wrong with easing the pain of a suffering person. Today, we have Tylenol, Motrin, percocet, vicodin, morphine, etc. In their day, they did not have all this. We aren't placing our trust in Tylenol any more than they were placing trust in wine. It was simply a tool to take the edge off when suffering. In the grand scheme of things, our trust is always to be placed in Christ.

Tusk Barnes said:
This question was a little more rhetorical. I think we can both safely assume that they ran and told. If they hadn't, how would we know today, right?

We know somebody told. We just don't know who it was. What we do know is that they were afraid, had planned to not tell anybody, and, at some point shortly thereafter, somebody let the cat out of the bag.

Tusk Barnes said:
I know this is long, but there is a point I had to all of this. You're obviously well versed, but here's where I have a problem. This collection of books is supposed to be perfect, without deficiency. If the Bible were truly perfect, there would be no room for interpretation. There would be no questions, no doubt. There would be no excuse for getting it wrong. There would be one denomination, not 38,000. The fact that you have to exercise your impressive and vast knowledge of apologetics demonstrates that the Scripture itself is lacking and incapable of standing alone. I think you and I could have done a better job together at crafting a flawless and perfect work.

It isn't really Scripture that has a problem here. It is your idea of perfection and what kind of masterpiece you would create if you were God. However, this is not the case. God is God and God chose to do what He did. He used human vessels to convey His inspired Word. This Word was laced with writing style and nuances of their day and was fully understandable by the people to whom they were addressed. Time is our enemy yet, despite the time difference and cultural difference, only skeptics have a hard time coming to terms with it. Those who believe it to be true really don't have a difficult time figuring it out. There are many denominations but these are mainly based off little things. To be honest, most often, it is because a denomination is letting their culture determine their interpretation instead of basing their culture off of the absolute, unchanging Truth of the Word of God. Regardless, the essentials of the faith are largely agreed upon by most, if not all, denominations. The ones who disagree on the essentials tend to be the cults and they don't count anyway. :wink:

Again, it isn't so much what you would do to make a perfect book but what God decided to do. His idea of perfection is obviously different from ours. Besides, Scripture is also clear that there was a purpose in things being withheld from Scripture so it isn't exactly silent on this issue. Skeptics were not the first to point it out. God let us know long beforehand.

rojoloco · Nov 20, 2010

Tusk Barnes said:
The "Or else" is the thing I have a problem with.

It sounds petty when we hear it in the movies, and it sounds petty coming from an all-powerful being.

Why would He have to threaten us in order to coerce us to believe in Him?

There is a vast difference between a threat and a promise. Do you actually believe God needs us? He's God!!! It's quite simple. Either we are reconciled to Him through the Son and will inherit eternal life or we are not and will not. It's not a threat. It's either/or. Think of it as a courtesy "head's up" so to speak.

JDFree · Nov 20, 2010

Tusk Barnes said:
The "Or else" is the thing I have a problem with.

It sounds petty when we hear it in the movies, and it sounds petty coming from an all-powerful being.

Why would He have to threaten us in order to coerce us to believe in Him?

That was not the subject matter of that which was posted. It was not about coming to believe at all; it was about believing deeply enough in the heart of hearts to maintain that active, living belief, such as to maintain the state of salvation.

If one dies in unbelief there's not much point in hoping for the rewards of belief: not going to happen!

I've posted enough information, personal experience, Scripture verse, historical evidence, genealogical evidence, archaelogical evidence, logical argument and simple common sense to reveal a God one MAY believe in.

But you can't get there from here if you lack the humble heart that allows you to accept that God is God, and you're not. As God He has the right to wipe humanity and the universe off the chalkboard at the end of the lesson with no further comment, as God does not depend on our appproval for His existence and actions.

A proud heart, a haughty spirit, a high opinion of self or preoccupation with self will effectively deny any man of their hope of salvation and eternal reward. That state of mind isn't God's fault, though He does His best to break through it. But, God forces no man to believe, it's an all volunteer group in heaven.

Many are very impressed with their own cleverness at supposedly logical arguments against the existence of God. However, no man has a right to heaven, it is a gift, given to those humble enough to believe. Those who lack the humble heart will lack the opportunity to know God and fully accept Him as their God. Bottom line: they are their own god and the True Living God isn't into time sharing.

In truth, He gives every man the desires of their heart. The problem is the haughty spirit receives only that which they desired, self, and the emptiness of it echoes hollow for all of eternity. They will not realize the superficial nature of their own belief until the final curtain falls, which may come at any instant.

rojoloco · Nov 20, 2010

JDFree said:
I find in Philippians 2:12, in the words of Paul speaking to saved Christian believers in Philippi:

"Wherefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Pretty hard to wring 'Once saved always saved' out of that! I detest the potential for depravity in that erroneous doctrine and like many, have witnessed it first hand. I have gotten the distinct impression throughout the new testament Scripture that we are admonished & warned again and again, "Straighten up & fly right!". That's pretty much a waste of words if there isn't an, "...or else!" following?

You are definitely missing the bigger picture and, like many, picking out select verses for the sake of making your own point instead of the point that God is making. We are totally depraved being but, thanks to His complete work of justification, we have been regenerated, renewed, and reclaimed. We are His and His alone and He has promised to never lose any of us. To reject Eternal Security is to reject the Biblical doctrine of justification and replace it with something less powerful.

Justification is a finished act. It is not something done within us but is something that is declared of us. Christ's merit is conveyed to us and, as a result, we are spotless in God's eyes. This is why we are also declared as already glorified (past tense in Scripture) despite not being dead and actually glorified yet. It is all because Christ gave up his riches and became poor so that we, as poor sinners, could become rich and inherit the kingdom of God. It in finished. It is complete. It is not temporary and swaying with the wind. Eternal Security in Eternal Life!

JDFree · Nov 20, 2010

rojoloco said:
You are definitely missing the bigger picture and, like many, picking out select verses for the sake of making your own point instead of the point that God is making. We are totally depraved being but, thanks to His complete work of justification, we have been regenerated, renewed, and reclaimed. We are His and His alone and He has promised to never lose any of us. To reject Eternal Security is to reject the Biblical doctrine of justification and replace it with something less powerful.

Justification is a finished act. It is not something done within us but is something that is declared of us. Christ's merit is conveyed to us and, as a result, we are spotless in God's eyes. This is why we are also declared as already glorified (past tense in Scripture) despite not being dead and actually glorified yet. It is all because Christ gave up his riches and became poor so that we, as poor sinners, could become rich and inherit the kingdom of God. It in finished. It is complete. It is not temporary and swaying with the wind. Eternal Security in Eternal Life!

No sir, respectfully, I'm not missing your point at all. It's just that your point is not the bigger picture, it is the smaller view, the more comfortable one. I have study this in very great depth for over 20 years and have immersed myself in every commentary on the topic I could find, and then dissected the Scripture myself to arrive at my own theology, as I understand the Word of Truth.

If "Once saved, always saved." is the 'bigger picture' of Scripture then somebody should have told Jesus, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Peter, Paul and Jude, because they wasted an awful lot of words teaching otherwise! Not one of them taught, "Get saved, then do whatever you want, you're still cool with God!"

Welcome!

Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Members Online

Trending content

Newest members

Community Stats