Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?

[amadeus2]

Indeed. For just one example: Don't you suppose that is why He re-defined the act of Adultery, in that, if we even look at another with lust in our heart, we have already committed Adultery?

Did Jesus redefine the Word of God or did he simply clarify it? God has never changed [Mal 3:6, Heb 1:12]. He was always looking at the heart of a man more than the outward practices. Otherwise why did He give these words to Solomon some 1000 years before Jesus was born in Bethlehem?

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

And the father of Solomon, David, was given these words to write;

"For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise:16-17

 

[Sebastian]

Joh...

Hey Sephiro'yoh, God wants you to be the receptient of this message: Go strong; keep work right as Ye Are; -yer cart is railed FoR 4Tund5s;-less soap.

I don't really get some of it,, -especially the soap'bit... buuut... Maybe you use soapbars too much or shower like sometimes twice a day or some ****??? soaping ur hands an awful lot? -Water is usually sufficient, -just plan water showers n bath, -maybe just a little for the groin or if you've been in touch with foul energy, -i don't know really, -keep going Ahe3ad.

Your's - truly,

I.

~~,~~

 

[Ceptor]

Did Jesus redefine the Word of God or did he simply clarify it?

Goodness I love it. Someone pass the popcorn, I don't need to say a word with men like these around.

:laugh:

 

[RJ]

Did Jesus redefine the Word of God or did he simply clarify it?

I would say, with respect to God, it was a matter of clarification. With respect to man it redefine what Adultery really was, not only was it a physical transgression but, now under the New Covenant, it was also, a transgression of the mind. Before I was saved it was always a physical transgression, not until I received God's grace and read Matthews 5: 27-28 for the first time, did I full understand the sin of Adultery could be a spiritual transgression.

 

[Ceptor]

I would like to say that the New Covenant, or Testament is a fulfillment of the Old Covenant, or Testament in Jesus Christ as the Word of God. And as such nothing has changed in God or His ways, only that we are taught the understanding of God's ways from the beginning. (Shown in verses like quoted by Amadeus: Psalms 51:16-17)

Matthew 5:17
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

But we often do very much need God's clarification to redefine our sinful hearts. I can sympathize with that. I am full of ignorance and ever learning.

 

[amadeus2]

I would say, with respect to God, it was a matter of clarification.

Yes, because who has ever fully understood God. If we have been growing as we should, we understand better than when we first began.

With respect to man it redefine what Adultery really was, not only was it a physical transgression but, now under the New Covenant, it was also, a transgression of the mind.

But even in this consider the two adults among the natural Israelites who were allowed to continue into the Promised Land: Caleb and Joshua. Was it because they never broke any of the 613 literal laws which God gave to Moses? I doubt that. I believe that Peter is confirming that no one had been able to do that. He did not make exceptions for Joshua and Caleb or anyone:

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10

We know that David and others in the OT did please God, but they did not walk flawless in accord with the law given to Moses. They did nonetheless please God because of something within their hearts.

Before I was saved it was always a physical transgression, not until I received God's grace and read Matthews 5: 27-28 for the first time, did I full understand the sin of Adultery could be a spiritual transgression.

Yes, you are speaking of your personal understanding. But as we also know both in the OT and in the NT, ignorance in the end of the matter is no excuse. The wages for unatoned sin is still death. The price for even a sin done ignorantly had to be [or has to be] paid. Is this not why only God is capable of measuring us to see if we have come up short or not?

And if we saved by faith and/or grace as many will say, does this not come about in spite of our lack of merit? We certainly are not saved because we have earned it. So what of those in the OT who did not have the way of faith and grace available to them when we consider the following verses?

"For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:" Deut 10:17

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:" Acts 10:34

 

[Brighthouse]

Understand your view brother Ceptor,there is one point one cannot overlook though.Please look at John 15:6-7 IF YOU!!!! There is but one work Jesus cannot do for any of us!!! Jesus cannot, nor will ever BELIEVE for anyone!! (John 6:28-29) If believing was done by God then no one could ever fall away from the faith,but in 1 tim 4:1-2 it is clear one sure can.

Now many can say they never believed to start with,but there is no scripture which can direct that man made doctrine. For how could one fall from any faith, unless one truly believed in the faith to start with?? humm?? hehe The best example I can show you in scripture of this in action comes from (Matt 13:19-23)

These are talking about people who say they believe,see what can happen before verse 23? NOW!!! When we get to verse 23!!! I agree with you then!!Verse 23 is once saved always saved, because we are on good soil, a man who hears the word, and understands the Word,and!!! who indeed bears fruit of the very Word.

Many say they believe,but saying I am a believer does not make you one unless fruit is born through ones own belief in Jesus.For with the heart a person believes!!( Rom 10:10) Not Jesus believing for any.I believe in some eternal security bro,but many have a false understanding of what grace truly is!! GRACE!!!! INSTRUCTS!!!( Titus 2:1-2)

Believing grace bears fruit. Always to me bro. I know you may disagree, but I did wish to show you through scripture not just what is believed which is so important, but why.I hope you will not take this as a bash bro,for it was never meant to bash you at all!! There has always been a requirement by God to, and for his own people

.It was about demand in the Old Covenant ( Deut 28 ) works based entire! Promise of blessing Deut 28:1-14, and the promise of cursing Deut 28:15-68 Today the New Covenant we live under, which is all about supply!!( Phil 4:19) With but only one single requirement!! We MUST BELIEVE! Jesus has no need to believe, he already knows what he has already fulfilled,but do we?? hehe If we believe then action has to take place from ones belief,our only work bro. Rom 10:4!!

 

[Ceptor]

Many say they believe,but saying I am a believer does not make you one unless fruit is born through ones own belief in Jesus.For with the heart a person believes!!( Rom 10:10)

I agree. That's exactly what I'm saying. If one is saved in their heart they are surely God's and surely will produce fruit. We all may grow in different ways and some take longer than others, but those that truly love God produce good fruit! No way around it.

And you aren't bashing me, you're posting scripture! :laugh: I'm here to learn and serve and praise God. Be I right or wrong I like being here with you guys!!!

Matthew 20:37-40
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

This is the commandments for the New Testament (New Covenant). These four verses have guided every step I've ever taken with my Creator. Loving God with all your heart will lead you to Jesus. I don't believe a person can truly seek God with all their heart and not find Jesus. Not when the Holy Spirit is there to show them the way.

So this agrees with believing on Jesus being the only way, because He is God, and we believe in and love Him. He knocks at every man's heart (Revelation 3:20). Faith in God like Abraham (Genesis 15:6)

And if we can backslide and "lose" salvation did God not already know who was His?? Just saying brother! :whistle lol

But in true curiosity to keep an open mind on scripture, what does this passage mean if it doesn't mean we can't lose our salvation if we really are a believer and really are saved? I don't know what else it could mean, or what it could be referring to except for that.

John 10:28-29
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

[Ceptor]

Addition!! Cough Cough, it locked me out! lol

(Jeremiah 29:13)

 

[RJ]

I agree. That's exactly what I'm saying. If one is saved in their heart they are surely God's and surely will produce fruit. We all may grow in different ways and some take longer than others, but those that truly love God produce good fruit! No way around it.

And you aren't bashing me, you're posting scripture! :laugh: I'm here to learn and serve and praise God. Be I right or wrong I like being here with you guys!!!

Matthew 20:37-40
37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

This is the commandments for the New Testament (New Covenant). These four verses have guided every step I've ever taken with my Creator. Loving God with all your heart will lead you to Jesus. I don't believe a person can truly seek God with all their heart and not find Jesus. Not when the Holy Spirit is there to show them the way.

So this agrees with believing on Jesus being the only way, because He is God, and we believe in and love Him. He knocks at every man's heart (Revelation 3:20). Faith in God like Abraham (Genesis 15:6)

And if we can backslide and "lose" salvation did God not already know who was His?? Just saying brother! :whistle lol

But in true curiosity to keep an open mind on scripture, what does this passage mean if it doesn't mean we can't lose our salvation if we really are a believer and really are saved? I don't know what else it could mean, or what it could be referring to except for that.

John 10:28-29
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing
John 15:5

 

[Ceptor]

Did I seem to imply we can do something apart from Him RJ?

 

[B-A-C]

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing
John 15:5

This may be true....
But I would ask...
Can any trees bear bad fruit? Matt 7:17-19; Matt 12:33; Luke 6:43; Matt 3:10;
If a tree produces bad fruit, is it because of Jesus?

There are of course trees that bear no fruit... ( Luke 13:7-9; )

It appears the branches of the tree can be broken off... because of unbelief. ( Rom 11:17-19; )

 

[RJ]

Did I seem to imply we can do something apart from Him RJ?

Not that I noticed!

 

[RJ]

This may be true....
But I would ask...
Can any trees bear bad fruit? Matt 7:17-19; Matt 12:33; Luke 6:43; Matt 3:10;
If a tree produces bad fruit, is it because of Jesus?

There are of course trees that bear no fruit... ( Luke 13:7-9; )

It appears the branches of the tree can be broken off... because of unbelief. ( Rom 11:17-19; )

Not sure what you are driving at? All your verse would prove than without Jesus in you, you can bare no good fruit and in the end, there is a process of separating the "good trees" from the "bad trees"....similar to separating the sheep from the goats; those with Christ in them and those without Christ in them.

 

[Brighthouse]

I get ya brother Ceptor!! John 10: 28-29!!! This is true!! providing, yes brother providing!!! We believe!! And if we believe then our fruit becomes abundantly fruitful! through our Jesus amen! and verse 23 of matt 13 is indeed our finished work through our Lord Jesus!! Very good brother!! We are on the same page! And I am very thankful for the Lord in you, to know, that in truth no matter who is speaking this,grace is always provided with truth!!( John 1:14!!) Blessing to all!

 

[Sebastian]

NVM (I'll ride 'n' Get one MySelf -no problem, -i feel like getting out anyway)

Edit: -but im not a diabetic.

rapper.*

 

[Bendito]

I would like to say that the New Covenant, or Testament is a fulfillment of the Old Covenant, or Testament in Jesus Christ as the Word of God. And as such nothing has changed in God or His ways, only that we are taught the understanding of God's ways from the beginning. (Shown in verses like quoted by Amadeus: Psalms 51:16-17)

Matthew 5:17
17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

But we often do very much need God's clarification to redefine our sinful hearts. I can sympathize with that. I am full of ignorance and ever learning.

I would like to say that the New Covenant, or Testament is a fulfillment of the Old Covenant, or Testament in Jesus Christ as the Word of God. And as such nothing has changed in God or His ways, only that we are taught the understanding of God's ways from the beginning.

Yes! Yes! YES! Very good answer my friend.

 

[RJ]

I would like to say that the New Covenant, or Testament is a fulfillment of the Old Covenant, or Testament in Jesus Christ as the Word of God. And as such nothing has changed in God or His ways, only that we are taught the understanding of God's ways from the beginning.

Yes! Yes! YES! Very good answer my friend.

Yes, a good answer; from the foundation the world, God's word has always been about Jesus. But, the big question is, exactly how has Jesus fulfilled the law in the New Covenant?

 

[Bendito]

Yes, a good answer; from the foundation the world, God's word has always been about Jesus. But, the big question is, exactly how has Jesus fulfilled the law in the New Covenant?

All of the Old Covenant Law was given to show us that we are in sin. It is to show us our need of a savior. Its all based on Gods love. Jesus, who is Love, came and paid the price demanded by the law, and bought our salvation. Simplistic? Yes but its true. If there had been no law, we would not even know about sin. So everything in that law was directed to one goal. Jesus showed us our need, fulfilled the need and then gives us the way we want to live. How? "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Rom 1:16 Gods Word, is the power of salvation. Who is the Word? Jesus is the Word.

 

[RJ]

All of the Old Covenant Law was given to show us that we are in sin. It is to show us our need of a savior. Its all based on Gods love. Jesus, who is Love, came and paid the price demanded by the law, and bought our salvation. Simplistic? Yes but its true. If there had been no law, we would not even know about sin. So everything in that law was directed to one goal. Jesus showed us our need, fulfilled the need and then gives us the way we want to live. How? "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Rom 1:16 Gods Word, is the power of salvation. Who is the Word? Jesus is the Word.

True!
But, only Jesus can fulfill the law perfectly, which includes all you mention. The problem is that we can not, therefore, I think the better answer for how did Jesus fulfill the law in the New Covenant, is that he , being the embodiment of the law, fulfilled it by getting inside us. We offer nothing, but with him in us, God credits us with his, righteousness, holiness, blamelessness, perfection, not ours!