Calvinism

[james1523]

Heresy begets....heresy. The only way to cover your tracks if you lie, is to......lie more. That's why it's always easier to tell the truth. It's easier to remember your story.

So it is with Calvinism. If you want to believe in predestination and lack of choice....I suppose it only makes sense that you would believe that Christ our Lord also was merely something other than a free agent. I guess that sounds more palatable than a robot, even though they would essentially mean the same thing.


This particular bastardization of the truth strikes at the character of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. Think about it --- what you're saying here is that Jesus' temptation in the desert, and his sweating blood in the garden was merely a really-really-good act. He's got Brad Pitt beat hands down. He's so good he convinced His disciples that he was really sweating blood. So much so that they wrote about it, and it was canon'ized in the Holy Bible that we read today.

After all -- if Jesus had no choice in the matter, and only willingly executed the desire of His Father in heaven....then, why the blood sweating? What is there to be fearful of?

This goes back to my question of risk. What risk / fear / trepidation would there reasonably be on Jesus part in all this? Were his temptations in the desert merely gyrations, or an act, so that we humans could tell (and more importantly, believe) the story of how Jesus was "tempted in all ways but conquered temptation...so we know we can!!!". Some sort of Tony Robbin's 'like self-help stunt?

Just one thing - among many, of course - that makes Jesus who He is...is that He willingly laid down His life. If He was merely a droid of sorts...then...well, then a LOT OF THINGS would need to be recalibrated in our belief system. Just one -- for example -- would be that God was not really all that personally involved in HIS OWN story...which is also ours.

IF you think this is a lie and bastardization of the truth (which I'm telling you, it is) -- I would encourage you to go back to the start. Go back to the drawing board to discover what seed has been planted in the beginning of your thought process here, that has developed into this ideology....which has manifested into the belief that Jesus was just some form of robot

I hope you might discover where this lie incepted, and see the truth behind it.

Jesus did not do what He liked but always did the Father's will. He had the ability to choose but He gave that ability up and took the Father's will even to the cross. It is yourself suggesting that Jesus was a robot, not me. Perhaps you do not understand the concept of being a "slave" to God. A slave is not a free agent, it only does what its master tells it to do. But the slave does have choice, but the choice is surrendered completely to the Master's will. Calvinism does not deny choice it denies the Pelagian idea that original sin did not affect human nature and that men can choose what is truly good without the aid of God. It is not a question of having choice or not, but a question of having the power to make the right choices and do good deeds. If you have the power to make the right choices and do good deeds, then you may save yourself. But if not, then only God can enable you to make the right choices and hence it is not dependant upon your choice but the decision of God. Clearly your continued misrepresentation of Calvinism proves you do not yet understand it.

Regarding Jesus's blood-sweating, presumably Jesus was afraid of the process of dying, the pain and suffering he was to endure (hence him saying "cup of suffering").

You say Jesus willingly laid down His life and you are correct. But unfortunately you (wrongly) believe His will was separate from His Person, His nature. But Jesus was the Son of God, even God Himself, so how could Jesus ever go against Himself by not willingly laying down His life? That is, His choice was constrained by His nature. Because Christ had a perfect nature, He could never not do the Father's will.
To suggest that Christ could deny the Father's will is to say that Christ did not have perfect nature and that there was some sin within Him. IF Christ was a fallen human being such as ourselves, the probability of Him doing the Father's will may have been 50/50. But since He is the Son of God and even God incarnate in the flesh, the probability of doing the Father's will to not, was 100 to 0. So He was not a robot, because the Father was not forcing Him to make any choices, yet He was a slave, in that He denied His own will and did the Father's, because He had a perfect nature.

 

[B-A-C]

Jesus did not do what He liked but always did the Father's will. He had the ability to choose but He gave that ability up and took the Father's will even to the cross. It is yourself suggesting that Jesus was a robot, not me. Perhaps you do not understand the concept of being a "slave" to God. A slave is not a free agent, it only does what its master tells it to do. But the slave does have choice, but the choice is surrendered completely to the Master's wil

I work with many Muslims. They pray often, I am sometimes humbled at how often they pray. Yet despite this, they rarely ask for Allah to do anything for them. In fact the overwhelming philosophy seems to be...
"it will happen or not happen as Allah wills it". Many of them also believe we have no choice in the things we do, but everything is pre-ordained by their god (Allah).

 

[james1523]

I work with many Muslims. They pray often, I am sometimes humbled at how often they pray. Yet despite this, they rarely ask for Allah to do anything for them. In fact the overwhelming philosophy seems to be...
"it will happen or not happen as Allah wills it". Many of them also believe we have no choice in the things we do, but everything is pre-ordained by their god (Allah).

Yes. Then I wonder why they ever defend themselves or declare Jihad? They don't see God as a personal being we can relate to and interact with.

 

[s.i.e.]

Yes. Then I wonder why they ever defend themselves or declare Jihad? They don't see God as a personal being we can relate to and interact with.

A: because they are as paradoxical as the Calvinist.

Any Calvinist apologist want to take on the question as to why did God create Satan?

 

[james1523]

A: because they are as paradoxical as the Calvinist.

Any Calvinist apologist want to take on the question as to why did God create Satan?

I know the answer: for His purpose.

 

[s.i.e.]

I know the answer: for His purpose.

+1 for John Calvin. His legacy lives on.

 

[james1523]

+1 for John Calvin. His legacy lives on.

I have a question for you.

If God is not sovereign over the will and choices of man, why do we bother praying for the salvation of the lost?

 

[Boanerges]

Calvinism is just another ism. It is a boat with only one oar in the water rowing in dizzy circles.

 

[s.i.e.]

Nice one, Boanerges.

I have a question for you.

If God is not sovereign over the will and choices of man, why do we bother praying for the salvation of the lost?

We?

This question assumes that things are black or white. They're not.

 

[Boanerges]

I have a question for you.

If God is not sovereign over the will and choices of man, why do we bother praying for the salvation of the lost?

Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.


Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

What an odd question. If we are His body, would not the hands be reaching, the feet going, the mouth speaking , and the heart praying?
Why do you think we are called to pray at all? If it is not needed why does the bible tell us to pray?
God delights in using His children; He delights in being glorified in and through these vessels.

Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


1Jn 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
1Jn 5:15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

 

[Chad]

I'm closing this thread since it's too long now, 27 pages long.

Please create a group if you'd like to further discuss and invite whomever wishes to discuss further.