Calvinism

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Job 38:21 But of course you know all this! For you were born before it was all created, and you are so very experienced!
Does anyone care to explain this verse or should we continue to choose to ignore it?


Thanks to any who take the time to consider why these doctrines are tossing me to and fro..
Read Job 38 in context. I believe God is making a point with Job that he's not in control. He's not saying that Job does know it's that he doesn't know. In the KJV the verse reads this way. "21Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?"
 
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Bambi - why go Ad Hominem on me? Why get personal? If I offended you...I'm sorry...but you should ask yourself why you're feeling the need to get defensive about this man-made "ism" and heresy?

What is so important about this particular ideology to you? What does it "do" for you? What does it "get" you? Comfort? Some sort of assurance that you wouldn't otherwise have with knowing just the simplicity of His great Love for you? Some sort of control or power? A sense of authority, perhaps?

I know exactly why I reject this lie: because of the things I've already stated above -- it lies against God, and his created beings. It lies against Love.

And frankly, yes, I get angry about that.


But you (and other Calvinists) --- why? Why adhere to such ideology? It must do something for you somehow, someway. You should understand what that thing is. I don't believe it is humility, and I don't believe it is born in love.
I mean't no attack. I was just using observations. I'm sorry if you feel you were attacked. You just seem that way to me. And I will be praying for you to come to an understanding.

As to why, because it's what I believe the Bible teaches. Just like you believe your right. I believe I'm right. Bye.
 
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Read Job 38 in context. I believe God is making a point with Job that he's not in control. He's not saying that Job does know it's that he doesn't know. In the KJV the verse reads this way. "21Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?"
The KJV does pose this verse as a question but most translations do not.
Sometimes translators find a verse that does not fit their ideas so they tweak the translation
to try to make more sense.Most translations do not pose this verse as a question.
If you study an interlinear or Hebrew lexicon you can decide for yourself if God was being sarcastic or if he was simply stating a fact that he knew Job did not remember.

Is God being sarcastic?
Sarcasm is "a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter gibe or taunt."[1][2] In modern usage, the word "sarcasm" is commonly interpreted as involving irony,[3] or employs ambivalence,[4] but traditionally sarcasm was not necessarily irony.[5]
Was God taunting Job after he had endured such sorrow and pain?
 
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Was God taunting Job after he had endured such sorrow and pain?[/QUOTE said:
I think if you read the entire book of Job you see that Job was too self-righteous. He didn't give God the glory that should have been his. Everything that Job had or didn't have was because of the sovereignty of God.
 
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Actually,Job's friends accused him of being self righteous but God vindicated everything Job said.

Job 42:7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.

God was angry with Job's friends for their finger pointing.
 
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Actually,Job's friends accused him of being self righteous but God vindicated everything Job said.

Job 42:7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.

God was angry with Job's friends for their finger pointing.
But if you read chapters 32-41 you will read about another friend of Job name Elihu and then God's correction of Job.
 
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But if you read chapters 32-41 you will read about another friend of Job name Elihu and then God's correction of Job.
Yes,Neither God or Job disagree with Elihu.
His speech maintains that Job, while righteous, is not perfect. Job does not disagree with this and God does not rebuke Elihu as he does Bildad, Zophar, and Eliphaz.

My position in this thread (I hope) was to be an Elihu and offer a bridge between the two opposed camps of thought presented here.
Both camps of thought offer plenty of scripture and logic to back up their position but neither position satisfies all scripture.

I offered a bridge that purposes the answer is "something we have not yet considered".
 
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I will be praying for you to come to an understanding.
Passive aggressive Christianity. Nice.

I'm used to that...so next time, use this on someone who may be younger in the faith that might actually believe you're offering real help, care and love.

I'm an old dog, and know Christian bs when I see it.
 
I don't care what web the Calvinist may want to spin on this: Love is absent without free and unfettered CHOICE. We are sovereign to choose.
So a parent which stops their young child cross a busy road by their own is not a loving parent? Afterall, the child is sovereign to choose. Letting people do what they like, is not love. That is no love at all. Love sets boundaries, and even stops us from making choices that might be bad for us.

Jesus Himself did not have free choice, or free speech, He was not a free agent, He only did the Father's will, and spoke what the Father said:
Jn 12:49-50 "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak."

Being a Christian, is all about denying our self, and denying our self includes denying our "right to choose".

See, this is where I will disagree. The ONLY way LOVE can fit into the picture is if there is CHOICE. I'm talking free choice. Free will. Free wheelin'. Do what you want. Whatever that looks like. You may see love. You may find love. You may not. You may die in hate. You may die in bliss having found love abounding.
You have described the life of a person who does not have Christ on the throne of their heart. "Do what you want" - is the self on the throne. It is like a wild stallion. But if Christ is on the throne of our heart, we would do what Christ wants, just as He only did what the Father wanted.
If we have the living God inside of us, He directs our steps and orders our environment (Prov 16:9).

Prov 16:9 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.
Prov. 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD

A slave of Christ does not mean we can "do what we want", and this implies we do not have free choice:
1 Cor 7:22 "And remember, if you were a slave when the Lord called you, you are now free in the Lord. And if you were free when the Lord called you, you are now a slave of Christ."

But God in His sovereignty sets boundaries around our decisions. When we open the fridge to get a meal we can only choose to eat what is in the refrigerator. Our choice is free yet also limited. Our choices are governed by our nature. A dog cannot choose to be a cat, and if it acts like a cat it will be something it is not, that is, a hypocrite.
Sinners make most choices according to their nature, and so do good and evil and godly men.
Calvinism does not deny free choice but understands that choices are limited by our own nature and our environment, which is ultimately not from ourselves but from God.

If you can credit to yourself, any of the steps which led to you choosing Christ , then by all means, credit is due to your free choice, but if you cannot, then only God can get the glory. There would have been people praying for you, and the Bible says the Spirit helps us in our prayers, and God would have arranged all the circumstances and people in your life so you could hear the Gospel and be saved. God did all this before you could choose Him, and therefore He prearranged, even predestined your salvation. Just like the color of our hair and skin was already determined by God, not my 'free choice', how much more does God arrange the more important things such as our salvation.
 
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Yes,Neither God or Job disagree with Elihu.
His speech maintains that Job, while righteous, is not perfect. Job does not disagree with this and God does not rebuke Elihu as he does Bildad, Zophar, and Eliphaz.

My position in this thread (I hope) was to be an Elihu and offer a bridge between the two opposed camps of thought presented here.
Both camps of thought offer plenty of scripture and logic to back up their position but neither position satisfies all scripture.

I offered a bridge that purposes the answer is "something we have not yet considered".
I would disagree with your bridge theory of Elihu, but tell me what is your bridge?
 
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You would have to read my previous posts to find out.
I've read through your posts, not sure I understand your bridge. It almost sounds as if you think their should be a compromise of the two views or that both are wrong. Either way some of the things you've stated I would disagree with.
 
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Here's a question. What does Ephesians 2:8-9 mean?

Eph 2:8-9. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.
 
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I've read through your posts, not sure I understand your bridge. It almost sounds as if you think their should be a compromise of the two views or that both are wrong. Either way some of the things you've stated I would disagree with.
I see them as waves of doctrine which tosses us to and fro.
Calvin had an awesome revelation about the sovereignty of God which had been obscured due to
Christianity becoming a political entity.
He had to step out of the box(limited understanding and popular opinion) to get this revelation.
However if I swallow Calvin's doctrine completely I have to believe that nothing I do will make any kind of change about anything.
That would make prayer for others to come to a knowledge of the truth a total waste of time because if it isn't God's will for them to receive the truth then all my prayers can't change a thing.

If there is freewill then God is powerless to change a heart and my prayers for others are just so much noise.
This is important to me because I spend much time and energy praying for the lost.

One doctrine says I can't do a thing about anything (which makes God out to be a tyrant,because he apparently created some just to torture for eternity)
and the other says it's all up to me(which makes Jesus of no effect).
I think the answer is "something we have not yet considered".

Bambi
Here's a question. What does Ephesians 2:8-9 mean?

Eph 2:8-9. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.​
I believe it means what it says but my interpretation must satisfy ALL scripture.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Calvinism says God is sovereign(I agree) and will save who he wants to but these scriptures say he wants to save ALL and held us ALL in unbelief specifically to show his great mercy to ALL.
Do you believe ALL will come to repentance and that none will perish?
 
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Jesus Himself did not have free choice, or free speech, He was not a free agent
Heresy begets....heresy. The only way to cover your tracks if you lie, is to......lie more. That's why it's always easier to tell the truth. It's easier to remember your story.

So it is with Calvinism. If you want to believe in predestination and lack of choice....I suppose it only makes sense that you would believe that Christ our Lord also was merely something other than a free agent. I guess that sounds more palatable than a robot, even though they would essentially mean the same thing.


This particular bastardization of the truth strikes at the character of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. Think about it --- what you're saying here is that Jesus' temptation in the desert, and his sweating blood in the garden was merely a really-really-good act. He's got Brad Pitt beat hands down. He's so good he convinced His disciples that he was really sweating blood. So much so that they wrote about it, and it was canon'ized in the Holy Bible that we read today.

After all -- if Jesus had no choice in the matter, and only willingly executed the desire of His Father in heaven....then, why the blood sweating? What is there to be fearful of?

This goes back to my question of risk. What risk / fear / trepidation would there reasonably be on Jesus part in all this? Were his temptations in the desert merely gyrations, or an act, so that we humans could tell (and more importantly, believe) the story of how Jesus was "tempted in all ways but conquered temptation...so we know we can!!!". Some sort of Tony Robbin's 'like self-help stunt?

Just one thing - among many, of course - that makes Jesus who He is...is that He willingly laid down His life. If He was merely a droid of sorts...then...well, then a LOT OF THINGS would need to be recalibrated in our belief system. Just one -- for example -- would be that God was not really all that personally involved in HIS OWN story...which is also ours.

IF you think this is a lie and bastardization of the truth (which I'm telling you, it is) -- I would encourage you to go back to the start. Go back to the drawing board to discover what seed has been planted in the beginning of your thought process here, that has developed into this ideology....which has manifested into the belief that Jesus was just some form of robot

I hope you might discover where this lie incepted, and see the truth behind it.
 
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I see them as waves of doctrine which tosses us to and fro.
Calvin had an awesome revelation about the sovereignty of God which had been obscured due to
Christianity becoming a political entity.
He had to step out of the box(limited understanding and popular opinion) to get this revelation.
First things first Calvinism isn't something that John Calvin invented. The doctrines of Sovereign Grace has been around since the beginning. John Calvin quoted many early church fathers regarding these doctrines, including Augustine. The term Calvinism came about when a group of reform believers in Holland were debating followers of Jacobus Arminius. I don't know the full details but that's were we get the terms Calvinism and Arminianism.

However if I swallow Calvin's doctrine completely I have to believe that nothing I do will make any kind of change about anything.
That would make prayer for others to come to a knowledge of the truth a total waste of time because if it isn't God's will for them to receive the truth then all my prayers can't change a thing.
Yep, I know what you mean I felt that way too, but it's not like that at all. God's will and man's action go hand in hand. He wants us to pray for others. In fact he tells us to pray for others in several passages. But just because we pray for our self and others it doesn't mean that what we pray will come about, God still is sovereign in the answers to our prayers. By praying we also communicate with God, having a relationship with him. If a child ask his parents for something and his parents say no, was it a waste of time for that child to ask? Does a child know everything his parents will allow? If a child only talks to his parents when he knows he'll get what he wants will that child have a strong loving relationship? Probably not. Praying is not a waste of time.

f there is freewill then God is powerless to change a heart and my prayers for others are just so much noise.
This is important to me because I spend much time and energy praying for the lost.
Keep praying only a Hyper-Calvinist believes he doesn't have to do anything. God is not powerless he is sovereign.

One doctrine says I can't do a thing about anything (which makes God out to be a tyrant,because he apparently created some just to torture for eternity)
and the other says it's all up to me(which makes Jesus of no effect).
I think the answer is "something we have not yet considered".
Calvinism doesn't make God a tyrant. God isn't just about love. He is a just, holy, and righteous. He demands justice to be carried out for sins of mankind. He is holy and can't be in the presence of sin, figure that at the cross:baffle:. He is righteous so he can't be a tyrant if he condemns some to everlasting damnation. He created us for his glory and how can he be glorified when you can't compare what he has done for us when there is nothing to contrast it with. There is free-will in this regard. Those who he didn't elect have free-will to chose God's gift of salvation. But because of their nature they hate God and would never choose him. Romans 3:10-11. So if God left us all alone and didn't chose any of us, our nature would reject God's gift. But because God is love he did choose some for salvation. And just because God chose us doesn't mean we don't have to choose him. We still have to make that decision to submit to God and receive his salvation. I believe by making that decision it's not making you a Christian it's proving you are one. You just didn't know it before then.

I believe it means what it says but my interpretation must satisfy ALL scripture.

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Calvinism says God is sovereign(I agree) and will save who he wants to but these scriptures say he wants to save ALL and held us ALL in unbelief specifically to show his great mercy to ALL.
Do you believe ALL will come to repentance and that none will perish?
Where did your faith come from? Faith comes from God. Romans 10:17
The word "All" even in our English language doesn't mean "All" all the time. If God is not willing that "All" perish then none will go to hell, and we know that's not the case. So then God is either a liar, not all powerful or he isn't talking about everyone just the elect. If you go and read the entire chapter and watch the nouns and pronouns you will see that Peter is talking not about everyone in the world who has been or will be born. He's talking about the "beloved", the elect.

Many times even Reform thinkers have a tendency to take verses out of context. We have to compare scripture with scripture. We can't just take a verse and say this is doctrine. We have to make sure what it is saying, in context, to know exactly what it's saying.
 
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I believe by making that decision it's not making you a Christian it's proving you are one. You just didn't know it before then.
That is the only way it makes any sense to me.
Instead of "proving you are" I would have said "revealing who you are in Christ" to yourself "proving you are" to principalities and powers.
That is what I was proposing in my previous posts,that is the type of bridge I'm talking about.

If God is not willing that "All" perish then none will go to hell,and we know that's not the case
If that's not the case then the bridge just crashed and your quote below is not valid.
it's not making you a Christian it's proving you are one. You just didn't know it before then
Eternal means no beginning and no end,always was and always will be and that fits perfectly with your quote above.

The Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world.
Jesus is the lamb of God and he was slain 2000 years ago but also before the foundation of the world.

Jesus said:
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

He came from heaven but he never left heaven either.
In quantum physics this type of thing is no big deal.

That which was out of time-space came into time-space.
But since there's no time outside time-space you can't leave or come.
I don't understand how you can die and go anywhere at all.
Jesus had to resurrect in life before returning to where he came from.

Job 38:21But of course you know all this! For you were born before it was all created, and you are so very experienced!

We can't just take a verse and say this is doctrine. We have to make sure what it is saying, in context, to know exactly what it's saying.
Believe it or not ,that is what I am trying to do.
I appreciate your input.
 
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If God is not willing that "All" perish then none will go to hell,and we know that's not the case
If that's not the case then the bridge just crashed and your quote below is not valid.
it's not making you a Christian it's proving you are one. You just didn't know it before then


I think you believe we were originally in eternity. I don't believe that is the case. We are created beings. We had a place and time when we began. But just because we had a place and time of beginning doesn't mean God didn't know us before time began. He is omniscient.

Eternal means no beginning and no end,always was and always will be and that fits perfectly with your quote above.

The Lamb of God was slain before the foundation of the world.
Jesus is the lamb of God and he was slain 2000 years ago but also before the foundation of the world.
I'm believe the passages that state, "before the foundations..." "before the world began" may imply that it was planned before the world was created. Now Jesus was in eternity but that doesn't mean he was slain then it just mean it was the plan before the foundations of the world.

Jesus said:
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

He came from heaven but he never left heaven either.
In quantum physics this type of thing is no big deal.

That which was out of time-space came into time-space.
But since there's no time outside time-space you can't leave or come.
I don't understand how you can die and go anywhere at all.
Jesus had to resurrect in life before returning to where he came from.

Job 38:21But of course you know all this! For you were born before it was all created, and you are so very experienced!



Believe it or not ,that is what I am trying to do.
I appreciate your input.
Don't know much about quantum physics and I'm not an expert on the bible, so I could all be wrong and you should study to make sure I'm right or deem me wrong. It's been nice talking to you. Pray for your growth in the Lord. :smiley:
 
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Did God create Satan?

Did God place Satan smack-dab in the middle of the garden of Eden? And did God, in His sovereignty, cause the serpent to deceive the Eve, then Adam? Did God then...essentially...throw us out the of the Garden?

Was the Garden even God's original intent for mankind?



In my experience, these questions are not generally addressed in an honest way by the Calvinist. If or when they are...this inevitably turns itself into one of the most pivotal questions you'll ever ask in your faith:

Is God good?

But for now, can I get an honest response from a Calvinist as for how Satan ever got here...and if it was God that created Satan...WHY?
 
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