Born again and Baptism, What's the connection?

[Butch5]

Right "Water" in the first birth and Spirit the second. Follow the flow of the conversation...they were already talking about a Mother's Womb. Jesus was explaining two births, one from the Womb(water) and one from the Holy Spirit...flesh to flesh..
and spirit to spirt.

Water isn't about being born of the flesh. Firstly, it doesn't make any sense for Jesus to tell someone they need to be physically born. How many people who came to Jesus to be saved who weren't physically born? None. That would be like telling someone that if they want to drive a car they have to be born. Well, of course they have to be born, that goes without saying. Secondly, Jesus said the one who believes and is baptized shall be save. Paul clears up any confusion one might have by saying that God saved them through the bath of regeneration and renewing of the Spirit. This is also in line with what we see first taught in the Church among the early Christians.

 

[B-A-C]

I have been given many gifts in my life. It didn't really cost me anything to receive these gifts.
But to use them cost me.

To use the car I was given, I had to pay registration, taxes, insurance, gas, and oil changes.
To use the bicycle I was given, I had to air up the tires and oil the chain from time to time.
I have to water the plant I given from time to time.

Even though the gifts were free, there was still time and effort put into using them.

Luke 14:27; "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
Luke 14:28; "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
Luke 14:29; "Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
Luke 14:30; saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'

Even Jesus says there is a cost to follow Him.

 

[Butch5]

Right "Water" in the first birth and Spirit the second. Follow the flow of the conversation...they were already talking about a Mother's Womb. Jesus was explaining two births, one from the Womb(water) and one from the Holy Spirit...flesh to flesh..
and spirit to spirt.

Nicodemus misunderstood. Jesus was talking about being born from above, not being born from the womb. Jesus saying, that which is born if the flesh is flesh, is telling Nicodemus that he missed the point. Remember, Nicodemus was a Jew and beleived that his physical birth afforded him entrance into the Kingdom of God. Remember, the Jews were the Kingdom of God.

Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits.

Jesus is telling him his physical birth as the seed of Abraham isn't sufficient. He needed to be born again.

 

[Butch5]

Nicodemus misunderstood. Jesus was talking about being born from above, not being born from the womb. Jesus saying, that which is born if the flesh is flesh, is telling Nicodemus that he missed the point. Remember, Nicodemus was a Jew and beleived that his physical birth afforded him entrance into the Kingdom of God. Remember, the Jews were the Kingdom of God.

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (Matt. 21:43 KJV)

Jesus is telling him his physical birth as the seed of Abraham isn't sufficient. He needed to be born again.

 

[Br. Bear]

Nobody is saved until the day of judgement, anyone can go astray from obeying God and fall from His grace (meaning favor).
Many people preach you can be saved without doing God's commandments, living a holy and sanctified life in strict obedience unto His will
but that is simply not true. That is why we are told in Matthew 7:14 that few will be saved. That is why Jesus Himself said that the
unprofitable servant will be cast into out darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

"Nobody is saved until judgment day" Thank you! That comes from studying the whole of Scripture.

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
John 9:39

And this is the verdict: The Light has come into the world, but men loved the darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.
John 3:19

Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out.
John 12:31

Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1Corinthians 1:20

 

[Br. Bear]

2Corinthians 5:16
[L So; As a result] From ·this time [now] on we do not think of anyone ·as the world does [or from a merely human perspective; L according to the flesh]. [L Although] In the past we thought of Christ ·as the world thinks [or as nothing more than a man; L according to the flesh], but we no longer think of him in that way.
EXB

This means that our knowledge of men can no longer be based on their outward lives (indeed, even though we knew Christ as a man we do not know him like that any longer). For if a man is in Christ he becomes a new person altogether—the past is finished and gone, everything has become fresh and new. All this is God’s doing, for he has reconciled us to himself through Jesus Christ; and he has made us agents of the reconciliation. God was in Christ personally reconciling the world to himself—not counting their sins against them—and has commissioned us with the message of reconciliation. We are now Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were appealing direct to you through us. As his personal representatives we say, “Make your peace with God.” For God caused Christ, who himself knew nothing of sin, actually to be sin for our sakes, so that in Christ we might be made good with the goodness of God.
Phillips JB

We are careful not to judge people by what they seem to be, though we once judged Christ in that way.
CEV

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
KJV

 

[Trevor]

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
John 9:39

Hi Br Bear, It appears that salvation is totally in the hands of our Savour, who can open eyes but also close them. So I'd say, that if we believe we are saved, it is futile to do battle with one another over semantics, we should instead, lift up the name of Jesus, through whom our blessings come, and praise his mighty name.

 

[Br. Bear]

Jesus is telling him his physical birth as the seed of Abraham isn't sufficient. He needed to be born again.

A new Birth, New Wine, Regeneration....

Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins,

And you hath He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Ephesians 2:

 

[Br. Bear]

lift up the name of Jesus, through whom our blessings come, and praise his mighty name.

Praise the Lord

 

[Br. Bear]

@Trevor

Hi Br Bear, It appears that salvation is totally in the hands of our Savour, who can open eyes but also close them. So I'd say, that if we believe we are saved, it is futile to do battle with one another over semantics, we should instead, lift up the name of Jesus, through whom our blessings come, and praise his mighty name.

Greetings Trevor,

it is okay to study together, to toss things back and forth a bit and fine tune our understanding.

I was thinking today about when i was a wee lad in Christ, [by my regenerated years, that is] how i was as saved by His Blood as ever i would be and i was told to KISS - keep it simple stupid - by one or two well meaning older folk of the faith. They were right. The milk was good milk and my eagerness to dissect it was stupidity. As my teeth grew a little, i started chewing more seriously over the meatier bits and to be honest, it became a battle at times to know arthur from martha and which way was up or down, as i encountered all sorts of allsorts and it did at times get confusing and i had to rely on the verse that God is NOT the author of confusion, to get through and get my head above water again.... which is fitting here... speaking of water and its significance.

But and only butt... if you are of the age (not the era) that you have a hard enough hide and a couple of decent horns to take a few blows now and again!


Bless you Trevor ....><>


I still think KISS is a good idea . I do, however enjoy getting my teeth into some deeper study and i really enjoy seeing more of the magnificent depth we have in Scripture, a gift from God, we can use rather than leave on the bookshelf gathering dust. Dust we were but we have been made new and He has breathed life into us...

Praise the Lord

 

[Br. Bear]

He that loveth father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, is not worthy of Me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for My sake shall find it.
Matthew 10:37-39

I have been given many gifts in my life. It didn't really cost me anything to receive these gifts.
But to use them cost me.

To use the car I was given, I had to pay registration, taxes, insurance, gas, and oil changes.
To use the bicycle I was given, I had to air up the tires and oil the chain from time to time.
I have to water the plant I given from time to time.

Even though the gifts were free, there was still time and effort put into using them.

Luke 14:27; "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.
Luke 14:28; "For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it?
Luke 14:29; "Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him,
Luke 14:30; saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.'

Even Jesus says there is a cost to follow Him.

Greetings B-A-C,

I was given a car some years ago, after asking our Father for one [that i needed the following day] - (a brother rang me later that evening and said, Bear, God just told me to buy you a car - i said, that's good. i just asked for one - i drove it the following day and my needs were met - praise the Lord) and one night some time later, i was sitting in my little Godmobile in prayer for a dear Sister who was bed-bound, near death. There was little time left. I had been praying for months and i mean praying. This night, the Lord showed me something in my searching and waiting.
He said (as much as we understand the Lord to speak to us in prayer) you are sitting in the car i gave you. If you never start it, it is close to useless to you, do you understand? [it is yours to use but it is up to you to use it] In the same way, I have given you authority.

It hit me.
He has given us authority. It is a gift.
If i didn't use it, it would be un-used. I had to put the key in and use that authority he had given me, the same authority He has given you, Brother. And that was my answer to my prayers.

I had been wanting the Lord to do the work that He had given to me to do. He did not give me a job to do without also providing all i needed to do it.

The dear Sister was healed that evening, through obedience, and up and about busy doing housework the next day as if never ill. Praise the Lord... He is Beauty-full !!!

So, yes, we have been given.... for God so loved the world... wow ... let us know the cost and be willing to spend our faith on what we have been given, for His glory and praise.


Praise the Lord and Bless you B-A-C ....><>

Jesus says there is a cost to follow Him.

and. yes, it did cost me. But to know Him.... what compares?

 

[Trevor]

it is okay to study together, to toss things back and forth a bit and fine tune our understanding.

Hi Br Bear, I agree, to share understandings is what we should be about, but many don't wish to take what a brother says and ponder on it with the possibility of having their minds changed or If their understanding has more relevance, changing the understanding of a brother. It seems many just want to win and they will alter scripture to fit their own narrative and try to bully brothers and sisters with scriptures that hold no relevance to the bible. but then, we are in an open forum and it is open to all and where that happens I'm sure the enemy would not miss an opportunity.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Yes Butch, you read scripture but I am afraid you either don't know, too biased because you were immersed or you need the the scales knock off your eyes! As we are:
NICODEMUS was confused...he was clearly hung up on the physical birth from his Mother. Jesus was simply saying, no,no no. To get to heaven you must be Born Again...to get to Heaven, one must have 2 births. Obviously, one has to have a
physical birth, the only one Nicodemus understood. THEN, if you believe you have a second birth by the Holy Spirit.
God gave us common sense, once you die and become a spirit you best have been born again when you were human. A Spirit can not be born of spirit, you must be born again while you are still alive, hence two births is the requirement.
Let say ,in a different way, than I have done before: you could have, very well, been born again during the process of water baptism...That is above my pay grade and will leave that one up to God. BUT, because of SCRIPTURE, I am most assured that is not the only way to be saved...Jesus is king!

 

[Br. Bear]

Hi Br Bear, I agree, to share understandings is what we should be about, but many don't wish to take what a brother says and ponder on it with the possibility of having their minds changed or If their understanding has more relevance, changing the understanding of a brother. It seems many just want to win and they will alter scripture to fit their own narrative and try to bully brothers and sisters with scriptures that hold no relevance to the bible. but then, we are in an open forum and it is open to all and where that happens I'm sure the enemy would not miss an opportunity.

Greetings again Trevor,

It is my experience [not that that means the world should turn accordingly] that our Lord always uses every situation to teach us, to speak Truth to us. If we listen, good... provided we don't then bury it.
So what i am saying here, is that sometimes in the past i have been so gritted up by the sort of tension and lack that you speak of but then the Lord shows me something much more important than little me getting my knickers in a knot, and that is the fact that i have got tangled in MY reaction to something... and it is His will that none of us get ruffled and lose His peace, not only with the world but with each other, and that 'each other' is the 'each other' he has given us all.. the 'each other family' we have been adopted into, by His great Grace

the sort of something that happens when we get born from above.

Praise the Lord


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

@Born Again 2004

Greetings,

you read scripture but I am afraid you either don't know, too biased because you were immersed or you need the the scales knock off your eyes!

is that really needed and helpful?
None of us are any better than the other. A couple of posts back you commented that sarcasm is not needed

...sarcasm never needed!

and yet you write like this to another?

I have done similar, too many times, so i do not judge you but i do encourage you to please be kinder in your wording.

Think about this, a person wondering about Jesus looks for something about being born again... sees this sort of talk and what will they be inspired to do, especially from one with your username?

================

I ask that everyone has a look in the mirror, more often than not, when posting here on the forums and if need be, wash any bits out of your eyes so that you can help others see, remembering the kindness of the Lord to you, having taken your guilt upon Himself and laying down His life that we might be friends, with Him
=================

Bless you ....><>

 

[Born Again 2004]

Good advice, too bad you don't need it!! I still say Jesus is Lord an Savior to all who believe!

 

[B-A-C]

James 2:19; You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

 

[Born Again 2004]

I did say Savior. He is my personal Savior, I don't think the demons say that!

 

[Born Again 2004]

All praises to AHAYAH BA HASHAM YASHAYAH WA RAACH!

Being Born and Being Birthed are two seperate things that happen to us before we experience this world.

We were Born a first time and we must be Born again!
I'm not speaking of Birth.

This what Nicodemus didn't understand as well as us!

CHRIST explains Born Again:

John 3:3,5-7
[3]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[5]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
[6]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
[7]Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Baptism explaned:

Matthew 3:16
[16]And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Acts 8:36,38
[36]And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
[38]And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Before I continue,
After reading these scriptures along with the ones I previously posted
What is the connection
In One word?

And I'll continue and show what was revealed to me.

None

 

[Butch5]

Yes Butch, you read scripture but I am afraid you either don't know, too biased because you were immersed or you need the the scales knock off your eyes! As we are:
NICODEMUS was confused...he was clearly hung up on the physical birth from his Mother. Jesus was simply saying, no,no no. To get to heaven you must be Born Again...to get to Heaven, one must have 2 births. Obviously, one has to have a
physical birth, the only one Nicodemus understood. THEN, if you believe you have a second birth by the Holy Spirit.
God gave us common sense, once you die and become a spirit you best have been born again when you were human. A Spirit can not be born of spirit, you must be born again while you are still alive, hence two births is the requirement.
Let say ,in a different way, than I have done before: you could have, very well, been born again during the process of water baptism...That is above my pay grade and will leave that one up to God. BUT, because of SCRIPTURE, I am most assured that is not the only way to be saved...Jesus is king!

Jesus didnt say one needs to he born again to get to Heaven. He said one needs to be born again to enter the Kingdom of God. As I said previously, Nicodemus understood that his physical birth as the seed of Abraham was sufficient to gain him access to the kingdom. The Jews had the Kingdom of God. Nicodemus was in it because of his physical birth as the seed of Abraham. However, the Kingdom was going to be taken away from the Jews and Nicodemus would need another way to enter the kingdom. He would need to be born again, metaphorically. He would need to be born of water and breath (spirit). His first birth was as the seed of Abraham. His second birth would need to be from above.

Regarding being a breath (spirit), man isn't a breath (spirit), he's a physical being.