Born again and Baptism, What's the connection?

[Born Again 2004]

This is where you are wrong about me...Know one "has taught me"...other than the Holy Spirit via the Bible.

 

[Butch5]

This is where you are wrong about me...Know one "has taught me"...other than the Holy Spirit via the Bible.

I didn't say anything about you.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Are you Orthodox Christian?

 

[Born Again 2004]

Don't go back to far because we're, as functional Christians, supposed to be guided by the Bible and the New Covenant but, if you must go back, re-read Jeremiah 31:33, where God forecasted the "New Covenant".

 

[Butch5]

Are you Orthodox Christian?

What do you mean by Orthodox? Are you asking if I hold the "accepted" doctrines or are you asking if Orthodox is my denomination

 

[Butch5]

Are you Orthodox Christian?

What do you mean by Orthodox? Are you asking if I hold the "accepted" doctrines or are you asking if Orthodox is my denomination

Don't go back to far because we're, as functional Christians, supposed to be guided by the Bible and the New Covenant but, if you must go back, re-read Jeremiah 31:33, where God forecasted the "New Covenant".

That's where Christianity came from. I simply look to those who were first taught as opposed to those of today.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Very simple question, you are either Orthdox Christian or you are not. If you don't understand it , please look it up...We're "these people" under the Old Covenant or New Covenant?

 

[Butch5]

Very simple question, you are either Orthdox Christian or you are not. If you don't understand it , please look it up...We're "these people" under the Old Covenant or New Covenant?

Me looking it up isn't going to tell me what "you" mean by Orthodox Christian. You used a capital O in Orthodox which makes me think you may mean is Orthodox a part of my denomination such as an Eastern Orthodox or Greek Orthodox. But, orthodox with a small "o" simple means that which is commonly accepted. I'm simply trying to get clarification.

 

[Born Again 2004]

So be it brother. As long as we both understand and agree that Christ is Lord!..that is all that matters in all of this..
..my belief that you don't understand the Gospel , including the New Covenant is a mute point, like Capital letters or not!

 

[Butch5]

So be it brother. As long as we both understand and agree that Christ is Lord!..that is all that matters in all of this..
..my belief that you don't understand the Gospel , including the New Covenant is a mute point, like Capital letters or not!

As you can see, I don't hold to many of the typical Christian doctrines. If that's what you were getting then I guess I wouldn't be orthodox.

 

[Br. Bear]

The LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved for ever.
Psalm 37:28

Greetings,

How long?

He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13

Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.
I Corinthians 16:13

Hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Revelation 3:11

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life.
Revelation 3:5

How long is a man saved for?
How long does he have his crown?
Is the Book of Life only a chapter or volume or part of a series?

In Psalm 37 [above] are the saints only preserved for that present age - for a certain age or time?

@Butch5
I raise these questions because these are the sort of things that we tie in with our concept of eternity and as we have been discussing, for ever and ever.

Likewise, the Lord changes not. Ever or always or never?

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:8

How do believers find peace in this verse? What does it mean, yesterday, and to day, and for ever?
Those who have trusted in the Lord for His Salvation, by grace, through faith, look for a never ending time with the Lord as His people. No set ages or stop-starts, so to speak, but an 'eternal preservation' and unity with He Who never changes and with Whom there is no variableness.

We see sunsets and sunrises each and every day, yet in truth, it is always rising and setting - a continuing manifestation of what presently we only see for the limited time that we are subject to it, because of our present limited position.
Is there any scope for our Salvation and Life in Christ being perpetual?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Born Again 2004]

Hebrews 6:4-6 Hebrews 10:26. John 10: 27-30. John 3:16.
John 15:6
John 5:24
Ephesians 1:13-14

 

[Born Again 2004]

Christ is the Alpha and Omega! That's perpetual!

 

[Butch5]

The LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved for ever.
Psalm 37:28

Greetings,

How long?

He that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Matthew 24:13

Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong.
I Corinthians 16:13

Hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Revelation 3:11

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life.
Revelation 3:5

How long is a man saved for?
How long does he have his crown?
Is the Book of Life only a chapter or volume or part of a series?

In Psalm 37 [above] are the saints only preserved for that present age - for a certain age or time?

@Butch5
I raise these questions because these are the sort of things that we tie in with our concept of eternity and as we have been discussing, for ever and ever.

Likewise, the Lord changes not. Ever or always or never?

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hebrews 13:8

How do believers find peace in this verse? What does it mean, yesterday, and to day, and for ever?
Those who have trusted in the Lord for His Salvation, by grace, through faith, look for a never ending time with the Lord as His people. No set ages or stop-starts, so to speak, but an 'eternal preservation' and unity with He Who never changes and with Whom there is no variableness.

We see sunsets and sunrises each and every day, yet in truth, it is always rising and setting - a continuing manifestation of what presently we only see for the limited time that we are subject to it, because of our present limited position.
Is there any scope for our Salvation and Life in Christ being perpetual?


Bless you ....><>

Hi Br Bear,

I think the way we got here is from theologians imposing their understanding on the text. Why do we understand aion as eternity? It's because theologians have told us that God is eternal. The reasoning goes, if God is eternal then aion must mean eternal. That's actually using their theology to determine the text rather than using the text to determine their theology. There was already a well established belief system long before there were English translations. We started out with the olam, what is to the horizon or "l'olam va'ed" what is to the horizon and beyond. This was into the distant future. Then the Scriptures were translated into Greek and the translators choose the aion or age. "l'olam va'ed" became unto the ages of the ages. Both olam and aion are used for varying periods of time. They don't carry the idea of eternity. To the horizon is not eternity, it's a foreseeable length of time. That's the base definition. An age is an undefined period of time. We use the context to determine how long an age is. For instance, scientists speak of the bronze age or the iron age. These time periods are of different lengths but they were not eternal. We speak of someone's age. That's a shorter period of time. People aren't eternal. So, theologians have taken a Greek and a Hebrew word that don't really mean eternity and translated them as eternity.

The phrase, unto the ages of the ages, is a long period of time. However, we're not told how long those ages are or how many ages there are. It's my understanding that neither Hebrew nor Greek had a word that meant eternity. Thus we have olam and aion. If they didn't have a word for eternity, then all they could do with the language was what they did. If they didn't have a word for eternity and we are translating their words as eternity, then we aren't being true to the text and worse, imposing something onto the text that it simply doesn't say.

OK, to answer your questions above, we don't have to rely on the words olam or aion. We know how long people are "saved" , from Jesus Himself. Jesus was speaking to the Sadducees and said,

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Lk. 20:34-36 KJV)

Jesus said of those who obtain the resurrection, "neither can they die anymore". There is eternal life. To die no more, is eternal life. But notice something that again in this passage shows that aion doesn't mean eternity. In verse 35, where it says "obtain that world", the word world is aion. Jesus actually said, they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that age, aion. What age? The one that is to come. If aion means eternity, how many are there? If eternity is unending how can there be one after this one? Jesus tells us there is an age coming after this one where believers will receive aionious Life.

But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. (Mk. 10:30 KJV)

Again, the word world is the word aion.

That brings up another issue. The English words world and eternity have completely different meanings. They are in no way tied together. One refers to the world system, or people, or the planet. The other is time related. Why would the translators use two completely unrelated words to translate that same Greek word? If the Bible uses the same Greek word in both places then there is a concept being expressed. By using different words that concept is lost. If they used the same word, age, then the reader would see the connection between Jesus speaking of the coming age and there being ages of ages.

I do see the concept of eternity expressed in the Scriptures, but not in olam or aion. It is expressed in phrases such as, "neither shall they die anymore" or "of his kingdom there shall be no end".

25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:1
27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end. (Ps. 102:25-27 KJV)

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (Isa. 9:7 KJV)

And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. (Lk. 1:33 KJV)

These passages carry the concept of eternity, but they do it with phrases rather than the words olam or aion.

In the end we don't have to rely on olam or aion to know how long people will live. Jesus tells us. But, with that understanding we can know that while the resurrected believer will never die, there will be ages in that time, or at least one more age.

This is how I see it. This is how everything comes together and harmonizes. Like I said, when I see aion translated forever, I see problems.

 

[B-A-C]

Mar 10:30; but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
Total KJV occurrences: 128

This is where we get the word "eon". A long period of time. It can be forever, but isn't always necessarily forever.
This is much like saying the "bronze age" or "Jurassic age". Just a long period of time, likely thousands (millions) of years.

The word "eternal" at the end of this verse is a different word.

αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Total KJV occurrences: 71

Non-ending, perpetual, never ceasing.

 

[Butch5]

Mar 10:30; but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

G165
αἰών
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
Total KJV occurrences: 128

This is where we get the word "eon". A long period of time. It can be forever, but isn't always necessarily forever.
This is much like saying the "bronze age" or "Jurassic age". Just a long period of time, likely thousands (millions) of years.

The word "eternal" at the end of this verse is a different word.

αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).
Total KJV occurrences: 71

Non-ending, perpetual, never ceasing.

Hi B-A-C,

It's not a different word. Aionios is the adjective form of aion. It's the same word it's just inflected. The last three letters ios make it an adjective. English does this too. Take the word "run" for instance. Run is a verb, however, when we add the letters "ner" we have runner which is a noun. The last three letters just change the way the word is used. The meaning doesn't change. Aion means an age, aionios, is using aion as an adjective.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Yes, baptized by the Holy Spirit, in or out of water

 

[Born Again 2004]

Born Again is the second birth not the first one or flesh giving rise to flesh. But being g born a second time and for the believer in Christ and being born of the Holy Spirit inside or outside of water.

 

[Br. Bear]

@Butch5

Greetings,

following along with that which you have shared thus far regarding the discussion recorded in the Gospel of John Chapter 3, does and/or can 'born again' [born from above] be likened to being saved?

We know how long people are "saved", from Jesus Himself.

====================

As this discussion/thread is Born again and Baptism, What's the connection? , should we be able to or should we/can we tie 'saved' into either Born Again and/or Baptism?
Perhaps this can help with the question here, " What's the connection? " for those interested.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Trevor]

What's the connection of Being born again with getting Baptized?

Hi Lacawar,
Throughout scripture, passing through water signifies the separation of the chosen from the world, Noah entered the ark and the world was left under the water, Moses parted the sea, the chosen went through unharmed, the Egyptians perished under the water. When we are baptised, we symbollicaly go under the water and rise up leaving the world behind. Jesus was baptised by John, so he put great store in baptism. If a person chooses not to be baptised, then firstly, they make light of what our King deems important, and secondly, they symbollicaly remain in the world. Being born again, requires acknowledgement and repentance of sin and verbal covenant with Jesus. If this is done with a true heart, then the Holy Spirit will enliven the spirit of the believer into new life causing them to be born again in Spirit. I believe both baptisms are required, one to acknowledge separation from the world and the other to move into new life and communion with God. Blessings.