An hour then your thoughts

[Curtis]

Jesus did not know Judas would betray Him.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

You really should "seek out" a matter before making assumptions about things you do not know.

 

[Sue D.]

@King J. -- you have a tendency to make some 'trouble-some' comments and it can be hard to figure out How to approach with an answer for you.

Would like to share another passage with you. Romans 11:33 - 34.

 

[KingJ]

Explanation indeed
However, unnecessary for my belief.

As for the person who has this need to know everything before coming to belief, rest assured they will never do so unless they have a Supernatural Experience. What they really mean in seeking all these answers, is that they require that God must come to them under their terms of understanding. Humility is not one of the attributes one fines in such people. Humility will allow one to submit, while pride that is more than likely behind the questions, will not. Pride more than many other things are boundaries that are self-created for the purposes of keeping themselves "rocks" so that God's love showered upon them will just roll right off.

I agree and disagree.

Me, sitting in an office with the unsaved. A discussion on Christianity is raised to the floor. I immediately make it clear that Christianity revolves around the cross 1 Cor 2:2 / God's love for mankind available to the whomsoever. Some person pipes up 'You mean the all knowing God who specially chose some'.

A Calvinist verse Arminian argument can arise from the simplest discussion. We ''have'' to have a defense for God ready. Otherwise the next line in public discussion is ''who cares about a partial God and '''His'''' religion'', next subject....evolution.

Whereas if I say, ''nobody can grasp God. All we can do is look at where the evidence points. ALL the evidence points to limited omniscience by God. God being as good as He is great. Lets not make assumptions of God when right now, each of us has true free will. Nobody likes to be miss represented!'' The floor remains open to discussion of a good God. Which is how it should be, because God is good.

Nobody, literally nobody wants to discuss serving an evil god. A hypocritical god. A partial god. I cannot defend such a god. I would not serve such a god. Nobody should. We have such good news to share with all. God is good. God is love. Psalm 136:1 alone took me to a great depth in my Christianity.

Of course it is. You know it's called "God in the box syndrome". They won't be satisfied until they have Him in a box with a neatly tied ribbon to top it off. I don't think our salvation is dependent upon us knowing everything there is to know about Him. If we know that He loves us and we love Him, we'll be well on the way to knowing Him as He Is and not as we want Him to be.

Yes, we will. Not the unsaved. We have to be good ambassadors for Him. If we can't we may as well not be here 1 Cor 5:10.

I firmly believe we have to be fully convinced on this and have a good answer ready and waiting. Free will is probably one of the most discussed subjects on atheist forums.

If there was a poll on a Christian forum on the existence of 'true' free will. Everyone should tick, 'yes it does exist'.

 

[KingJ]

On the One hand, you're saying that Jesus Did know He would choose those 12 disciples / apostles, but He did NOT know that Judas would betray Him. What would prevent Jesus Christ from knowing That as well. YOU are limiting omniscience.

You are suggesting that mere mankind can know the mind of Christ. As per your comment that "otherwise He would not have chosen him." How about 'this' -- Jesus Christ knew very well what Judah would do -- just as He knew the pain He would endure on the cross. He was experiencing the pain We would be feeling If we ended up in the lake of fire and brimstone. And in Isaiah -- 'by His stripes we are healed'.

You would like to re-write Scripture so You could understand it? You'd like all of Scripture to make sense to you. Having 'all knowledge' Also?!

The evidence points to Jesus saying one would betray Him after spending time to get to know them. Stop making assumptions and let's stick to actual scripture. Let's also read scripture properly. No pre-conceived views.

One comment I'd like you to address further -- a while back you said that God giving us brains to know good and evil puts God on our level. WHY.

I did not say that. I said ''regarding what is good and evil / the knowledge of good and evil, we are on His level'. A quote from Gen 3:22.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

So, now when we say ''we cannot grasp God being good or evil'', we are just talking 'unscriptural / sounds correct', nonsense.

 

[KingJ]

Isa 5:20 Those who call evil good and good evil are as good as dead, who turn darkness into light and light into darkness, who turn bitter into sweet and sweet into bitter. (NET)

This verse cannot be more out of context. This is referring to for example, the wicked calling homosexuality a good thing.

Not a Christian who knows God is good, defending him from others saying He is evil.

 

[Curtis]

This verse cannot be more out of context. This is referring to for example, the wicked calling homosexuality a good thing.

Not a Christian who knows God is good, defending him from others saying He is evil.

I have no idea what you are talking about! Do you call God good, or evil, or do you think he is both?

 

[KingJ]

I have no idea what you are talking about! Do you call God good, or evil, or do you think he is both?

Where have I called God evil? You have espoused God is evil, I have proven it, you have also quoted scripture stating He created evil, with no explanation.

 

[Curtis]

You have espoused God is evil,

I have never called God evil!!!

 

[KingJ]

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

You really should "seek out" a matter before making assumptions about things you do not know.

I have been waiting for someone to quote this. I would not be so quick to say I am making assumptions. It is more a case of scripture being cherry picked.

It requires a lengthy rebuttal. I just want to be crystal clear. You have read the whole of John 6, you have prayed and applied your mind to the insinuation you making. You are interpreting this verse 100% in a Calvinistic sense? You are not going to save me any rows on an explanation? You would just take it ''as is''?

 

[Curtis]

you have also quoted scripture stating He created evil,

Anyone who knows how to read understands that God created every thing good, not evil!!! If there is evil it is because it was created good, and then became evil on it's own!!!

 

[KingJ]

I have never called God evil!!!

But you have. I have proven that your statements on Him can only equate to an evil God. You did not give a rebuttal. You then quote scripture stating He created evil without an explanation. I feel for an unsaved person reading this thread.

 

[Sue D.]

This verse cannot be more out of context. This is referring to for example, the wicked calling homosexuality a good thing.

Not a Christian who knows God is good, defending him from others saying He is evil.

"This is referring to for example, the wicked calling homosexuality of good thing." Talk about 'pulling' something out of a passage that isn't there." Isaiah 5 -- the 5 "Woes" -- Your example belongs to You.

 

[KingJ]

Anyone who knows how to read understands that God created every thing good, not evil!!! If there is evil it is because it was created good, and then became evil on it's own!!!

If God is '''the''' omnipotent and omniscient Creator of all. Which you quite literally imply you believe in quoting John 6:64 'as is', then I quite literally have absolutely no idea how you arrive at the statement ''and then became evil on it's own''.

I am not fighting with you Curtis. I know you mean well. I just want to hear your rational explanation on how you arrive at the belief that God is not evil, with your interpretation of scripture. I can't and I do believe I have a strong argument to present against your Calvinistic 'as is' interpretation of John 6:64.

I do not believe you can present a rational rebuttal that is not Calvinistic. If there is one, outside of mine, I am truly dying to hear it.

 

[Sue D.]

The evidence points to Jesus saying one would betray Him after spending time to get to know them. Stop making assumptions and let's stick to actual scripture. Let's also read scripture properly. No pre-conceived views.

I did not say that. I said ''regarding what is good and evil / the knowledge of good and evil, we are on His level'. A quote from Gen 3:22.

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.

So, now when we say ''we cannot grasp God being good or evil'', we are just talking 'unscriptural / sounds correct', nonsense.

KingJ -- maybe You should go back up to post #201 -- Curtis was sharing John 6:64 and I'm including through the end of the chapter.

so, yes, we Are sticking to actual Scripture.

 

[KingJ]

KingJ -- maybe You should go back up to post #201 -- Curtis was sharing John 6:64 and I'm including through the end of the chapter.

so, yes, we Are sticking to actual Scripture.

Is that your final answer? You agree 100% with what Curtis has stated? You can not think of any other scripture to include to shine light on this? You are not going to save me any time typing rows in a reply? You are not a Calvinist?

2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is God breathed.

 

[KingJ]

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

You really should "seek out" a matter before making assumptions about things you do not know.

Lets look closely at the first part of John 6:64 'Jesus knows from the beginning 'who they were that believed not''. If we read that ''as is'' with no scripture shining light on it, it is 100% 5 point Calvinistic. God knows from birth who will be in heaven and from birth who will be in hell.

So the key word to be interrogated is ''beginning''.

The Greek word there is ''ἀρχῆς''. This appears as well in John 8:44 when it says ''satan has been a murderer from the beginning'.

Has satan been a murderer from the beginning?

You have also not dealt with the verse I presented. Luke 6:13 Jesus chose twelve disciples to be apostles. There was a time when Jesus chose twelve disciples to be apostles. Just as there was a time when the devil was not a murderer. Luke 6:13 does not say Jesus chose eleven to be apostles and one to betray Him. Was Jesus then being dishonest / lying to all in Luke 6:13?

If we add John 6:64 together with Luke 6:13, Acts 10:34, Psalm 136:1, John 3:16 we arrive at the correct conclusion.

Quoting John 6:64 in isolation as you have is almost as bad as quoting Rom 9:13 Esau I have hated, in isolation. Do you believe God hated Esau for no reason? Do you believe as Calvinists do that God can make a vessel unto dishonor Rom 9:21?

We cannot quote these contentious scriptures in isolation and assume the reader interprets it as God being good. This is my chief gripe with Calvinists. No rational thinking person on this planet will grasp God being good from these scriptures quoted in isolation.

 

[Curtis]

If we read that ''as is'' with no scripture shining light on it, it is 100% 5 point Calvinistic. God knows from birth who will be in heaven and from birth who will be in hell.

Yep...that's right. Every one knows that!

 

[Curtis]

[QUOTE="KingJ, post: 309429, member: 30204"]there was a time when the devil was not a murderer.[/QUOTE]
That's right. Lucifer (AKA the devil, the serpent, Satan) was chosen to be "the anointed Cherub" He was not chosen to be the devil, he became the devil through his own actions!!!

 

[Curtis]

does not say Jesus chose eleven to be apostles and one to betray Him. Was Jesus then being dishonest / lying to all in

Jesus chose twelve not eleven. One of his picks betrayed him, and killed himself. Every one has free will to chose whom they will serve, or deny. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just some, but not all will be saved!!!

 

[Curtis]

Do you believe God hated Esau for no reason? Do you believe as Calvinists do that God can make a vessel unto dishonor Rom 9:21?

This why you have no clue how this could be unless you believed God knows all things which you don't, so it will always be a mystery to you. The Lord knows every move, every decision, every thought you will have before he created the world, yet you have complete free will to think, and do what ever you want.

"Do I believe as Calvinists do that God can make a vessel unto dishonor"

God can make anything he wants since he is God, the creator! Does God make men vessels unto dishonor? Nope!!! But if he did, who are you to condemn him if he does? Would the one created say unto his creator why have you made me this way?