An hour then your thoughts

[Curtis]

God is omnipotent. He created everything. He created evil?

Every thing God created from the beginning was "good". If there is evil in this world it is because it was created good, and then became evil.

 

[Christ4Ever]

God is omnipotent. He created everything. He created evil?

Would you equate the possibility for evil to exist as the same as God Creating it?

So we see that God is not the dictionary definition of omnipotence. Likewise God is not the dictionary definition of omniscience.

Actually I don't see any problem with God and the Dictionary Definition of both words:

Omnipotence: one who has unlimited power or authority
Omniscience: the state of knowing everything

Nor does it contradict God's ability to limit Himself as He wills in power or knowledge. I see "limit" as God's application of His "will" to do as He pleases.

God is love 1 John 4:8. He can only love. God's love falls down on all like rain. The unsaved harden their hearts to Him and are like rocks that don't hold any of it. The saved are like cups that catch His love, drink it and grasp it.

I like this mucho brother! Nice way of putting it. Hope you don't mind me using this periodically?

Apologies for being a little behind on replying Brother.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[KingJ]

No one can use this scripture to proof Jesus did not know what was going on during his crucifixion! Jesus was simply quoting from the Old Testament scripture, thus fulfilling prophecy. (Ps 22:1) Jesus knew everything concerning his mission as he told his disciples that he would be delivered unto the hands of wicked men, be crucified, and then raise from the dead on the third day. (Matt 17:22-23)

Jesus knew of the cross and being a Lamb to the slaughter before the foundations of the earth Eph 1:4.

The evidence however, does not point to Him knowing how it would transpire. Otherwise He would not have said what He said as He said it.

In addition, there is a truth to grasp in grasping what exactly was planned. All Jesus ''had'' to do was die for us. He did not have to be a Lamb to the slaughter. He did not have to come under all the temptations of the flesh. He did not have to preach and share the truth. He did not have to come back after the three days and spend more time with us. He did all these 'extra' things because He wants us to grasp how committed He is to a relationship with mankind. He did not want any of us to say ''God, how would you know, you have not experienced this'' or ''God, all the evidence always points to you not limiting yourself''.

 

[KingJ]

Every thing God created from the beginning was "good". If there is evil in this world it is because it was created good, and then became evil.

God is the Creator. Evil Exists. God created evil. Is God good? Please provide a rebuttal.

Saying God created good and that good then became evil is not a rebuttal. You are merely moving the goal posts.

 

[KingJ]

Would you equate the possibility for evil to exist as the same as God Creating it?

No. But it needs one 'hell'' of an explanation.

Many would say yes. If you consider hunting dogs eating game. God created the dogs with sharp teeth, but not the kill potential of a lion. Witnessing a cruel death has every appearance of an evil creator.

If one can prove God is not evil when there is so much evil with regards to creation from His omnipotence, then we can likewise prove God is not evil when there is so much assumption of evil with regards to His omniscience.

Actually I don't see any problem with God and the Dictionary Definition of both words:

Omnipotence: one who has unlimited power or authority
Omniscience: the state of knowing everything

Nor does it contradict God's ability to limit Himself as He wills in power or knowledge. I see "limit" as God's application of His "will" to do as He pleases.

So, you would say that 'God is omniscient in as much as His will to do as He pleases, permits'. I agree.

That is not the dictionary definition of omniscience. I am fine with someone stating it as you have. Omniscience + God's will to be good. The problem is when people put a full-stop after the dictionary definition of omniscience. That is miss-representation of God.

I like this mucho brother! Nice way of putting it. Hope you don't mind me using this periodically?

Apologies for being a little behind on replying Brother.

:smile: No problem.

 

[Curtis]

Oops...double post...Please delete me.

 

[Curtis]

God is the Creator. Evil Exists. God created evil. Is God good? Please provide a rebuttal.

Saying God created good and that good then became evil is not a rebuttal. You are merely moving the goal posts.

Gen 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (KJV)

Isa 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things. (AMP)

...I create evil.... The Hebrew word for "create" is bara’ (H1254) and here it means to bring about.. The Hebrew word for "evil" is ra‛ (H7451). It is never rendered "sin,"

Any person,or nation that does wickedness surly God brings evil (calamity) upon them.

End of rebuttal!!!

 

[Dave M]

. Evil Exists. God created evil

Dear brother please do not tell me that you really think that??

, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.

Did God create evil?

 

[B-A-C]

[King James Authorized Version]
Isa 45:7; I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Curtis]

The evidence however, does not point to Him knowing how it would transpire. Otherwise He would not have said what He said as He said it.

So, you are saying Jesus telling his disciples that he would be handed over to wicked men, be crucified, and then raise from the dead after three days is NOT knowing what would transpire?

 

[Sue D.]

Jesus knew of the cross and being a Lamb to the slaughter before the foundations of the earth Eph 1:4.

The evidence however, does not point to Him knowing how it would transpire. Otherwise He would not have said what He said as He said it.

In addition, there is a truth to grasp in grasping what exactly was planned. All Jesus ''had'' to do was die for us. He did not have to be a Lamb to the slaughter. He did not have to come under all the temptations of the flesh. He did not have to preach and share the truth. He did not have to come back after the three days and spend more time with us. He did all these 'extra' things because He wants us to grasp how committed He is to a relationship with mankind. He did not want any of us to say ''God, how would you know, you have not experienced this'' or ''God, all the evidence always points to you not limiting yourself''.

John 14:6 Jesus is talking to us "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, No man comes to the Father, but by/ through Me."

Jesus's death without anything else -- would have done Nothing. He would have been just like any other religious teacher of that day. He would have been dying a martyrs's death -- and gone to and stayed in hell and then the lake of fire and brimstone just like any other man or woman.

Go to Isaiah 53 thought-provoking chapter /verses. vs 5 "but He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed."
vs 6 "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; .....
vs 7 "He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth; He was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so He did not open His mouth."

John 1:29 "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! " --- takes away the sin of the world. Nothing else would do That.

1 Peter 1:19 -- back up to vs 15 " But just as He who called you is Holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: be holy, because I am holy."

s 18 -- For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefather, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

vs 21 "Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him and so your faith and hope are in God."

All these 'extra' things? They were not 'extra' -- they were meant to Be. All part of The plan. Because Jesus Christ is The Son of God -- He is able -- the only One who Could do the dying on the cross -- the taking our sins upon Himself and taking them to hell and then coming back Up to dwell with mankind once again. So that people Could actually See Him -- realize that He truly Was the real Son of God. And Then He ascended back Up to the Father in heaven."

You put So Much emphasis on God either limiting or Not limiting Himself. As if that's All that matters. It's the WHY of God's 'limiting' Himself.

You'd commented back a while that God giving us brains to know right and wrong -- puts us all equal. According to You -- God and man are equal. Do you Really believe that?

Personally, I'm thankful / grateful to God that He Was willing To go through All that He Did go through. For me -- to take away my sins. He is truly God, Almighty in power and great glory.

Also -- His Word spoke this entire universe, world, us into existence. He Speaks and is obeyed. If That isn't all-powerful , I don't know what is. Well -- the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ Is Also all-powerful. And what's even just as amazing -- is that He created this world with the appearance of age. It was created fully ready to provide for the needs of Adam and Eve. And God also created / made them able to bear children Now. They did not have to grow into puberty.

 

[Christ4Ever]

No. But it needs one 'hell'' of an explanation.

Many would say yes. If you consider hunting dogs eating game. God created the dogs with sharp teeth, but not the kill potential of a lion. Witnessing a cruel death has every appearance of an evil creator.

If one can prove God is not evil when there is so much evil with regards to creation from His omnipotence, then we can likewise prove God is not evil when there is so much assumption of evil with regards to His omniscience.

Explanation indeed
However, unnecessary for my belief.

As for the person who has this need to know everything before coming to belief, rest assured they will never do so unless they have a Supernatural Experience. What they really mean in seeking all these answers, is that they require that God must come to them under their terms of understanding. Humility is not one of the attributes one fines in such people. Humility will allow one to submit, while pride that is more than likely behind the questions, will not. Pride more than many other things are boundaries that are self-created for the purposes of keeping themselves "rocks" so that God's love showered upon them will just roll right off.

The problem is when people put a full-stop after the dictionary definition of omniscience. That is miss-representation of God.

Of course it is. You know it's called "God in the box syndrome". They won't be satisfied until they have Him in a box with a neatly tied ribbon to top it off. I don't think our salvation is dependent upon us knowing everything there is to know about Him. If we know that He loves us and we love Him, we'll be well on the way to knowing Him as He Is and not as we want Him to be.

Sorry it took me a bit before sitting down to reply to you Brother.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Sue D.]

@ KingJ. -- Your comment about hunting dogs -generally speaking- they direct the hunter to where the game is -- the hunter shoots and gets the game. God created them exactly as they needed to be created. The animal world -- there is a food chain. Sharp claws and teeth enable the hunting dogs to get their next meal. The same with lions, tigers, etc. Otherwise they would starve. Not really sure of the origin Of hunting dogs. What God created and what mankind has developed -- there Can be a difference. But Every animal needs to eat to stay alive. If domesticated -- people feed them -- if out in the wild -- they fend for themselves -- the food chain.

Is it cruel when people go out deer hunting? As long as the hunter has a legal license -- the potential 'meal' gets hunted and shot with a rifle or bow and arrow. It's 'field dressed' and brought back home.
There Are people who Won't go hunting because they feel it Is cruel. They won't eat meat because an animal has to be killed. But that's man-made 'thing' , not a Biblical 'thing'. God gave man dominion over the animal world. We fish and eat what we catch and cook. There Are animals that we Don't eat when they are dead.

Man kills each other -- much crueler than we with the animal world. Does That mean that God is cruel? No. When Adam and Eve ate the from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That left the door open for the evil doings of people.

Even the Jeffery Dalmers of the world. He would kidnap and do horrible things to the little boys. He was finally caught, put in prison -- actually accepted Christ as his personal Savior. He was given life in prison -- no parole. He knew he was guilty of death and willingly put himself in the general population. He ended up being killed while in prison.

The world of drug dealers -- the Really bad guys -- drug cartel people -- read about one of those guys who was arrested and put in prison -- to 'rot'. Well -- while in prison -- someone reached him with the Gospel unto salvation. His own Personal salvation happened. He started Bible studies. God shows His mercy and love. Does that mean that All cartel people -- drug dealers will end up being reached with the Gospel?! Probably Not -- but who, except God, really knows.

 

[KingJ]

Gen 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. (KJV)

Isa 45:7 I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things. (AMP)

...I create evil.... The Hebrew word for "create" is bara’ (H1254) and here it means to bring about.. The Hebrew word for "evil" is ra‛ (H7451). It is never rendered "sin,"

Any person,or nation that does wickedness surly God brings evil (calamity) upon them.

End of rebuttal!!!

I asked for a rebuttal of God being evil. You reply with scripture that says He creates evil. Not even a word to help an unsaved person grasp the context thereto. You are not wielding the word with any skill or taking the need for a rebuttal seriously.

''End of rebuttal'' What did you refute?

 

[KingJ]

Dear brother please do not tell me that you really think that??

, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good.

God did not create evil, but He does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what He wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will and choose whether or not we wanted to serve Him.

Did God create evil?

Dave, I am literally 100% in your space. Please read my posts properly.

 

[KingJ]

John 14:6 Jesus is talking to us "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, No man comes to the Father, but by/ through Me."

Jesus's death without anything else -- would have done Nothing. He would have been just like any other religious teacher of that day. He would have been dying a martyrs's death -- and gone to and stayed in hell and then the lake of fire and brimstone just like any other man or woman.

Go to Isaiah 53 thought-provoking chapter /verses. vs 5 "but He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed."
vs 6 "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; .....
vs 7 "He was oppressed and afflicted, yet He did not open His mouth; He was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so He did not open His mouth."

John 1:29 "The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! " --- takes away the sin of the world. Nothing else would do That.

1 Peter 1:19 -- back up to vs 15 " But just as He who called you is Holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: be holy, because I am holy."

s 18 -- For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefather, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.

vs 21 "Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him and so your faith and hope are in God."

All these 'extra' things? They were not 'extra' -- they were meant to Be. All part of The plan. Because Jesus Christ is The Son of God -- He is able -- the only One who Could do the dying on the cross -- the taking our sins upon Himself and taking them to hell and then coming back Up to dwell with mankind once again. So that people Could actually See Him -- realize that He truly Was the real Son of God. And Then He ascended back Up to the Father in heaven."

You put So Much emphasis on God either limiting or Not limiting Himself. As if that's All that matters. It's the WHY of God's 'limiting' Himself.

You'd commented back a while that God giving us brains to know right and wrong -- puts us all equal. According to You -- God and man are equal. Do you Really believe that?

Personally, I'm thankful / grateful to God that He Was willing To go through All that He Did go through. For me -- to take away my sins. He is truly God, Almighty in power and great glory.

Also -- His Word spoke this entire universe, world, us into existence. He Speaks and is obeyed. If That isn't all-powerful , I don't know what is. Well -- the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ Is Also all-powerful. And what's even just as amazing -- is that He created this world with the appearance of age. It was created fully ready to provide for the needs of Adam and Eve. And God also created / made them able to bear children Now. They did not have to grow into puberty.

Sue, please can you quote me and reply to a point at a time. You make some good points, but not sure what to reply to. You seem to be all over the place.

 

[KingJ]

So, you are saying Jesus telling his disciples that he would be handed over to wicked men, be crucified, and then raise from the dead after three days is NOT knowing what would transpire?

Correct.

Jesus chose twelve disciple to be apostles. He knew He would. At the time He chose, He did not know Judas would betray Him. Otherwise He would not have chosen him. Limited omniscience is where the evidence is pointing.

Luke 6:13 At daybreak he called together all of his disciples and chose twelve of them to be apostles.

 

[Sue D.]

Correct.

Jesus chose twelve disciple to be apostles. He knew He would. At the time He chose, He did not know Judas would betray Him. Otherwise He would not have chosen him. Limited omniscience is where the evidence is pointing.

Luke 6:13 At daybreak he called together all of his disciples and chose twelve of them to be apostles.

On the One hand, you're saying that Jesus Did know He would choose those 12 disciples / apostles, but He did NOT know that Judas would betray Him. What would prevent Jesus Christ from knowing That as well. YOU are limiting omniscience.

You are suggesting that mere mankind can know the mind of Christ. As per your comment that "otherwise He would not have chosen him." How about 'this' -- Jesus Christ knew very well what Judah would do -- just as He knew the pain He would endure on the cross. He was experiencing the pain We would be feeling If we ended up in the lake of fire and brimstone. And in Isaiah -- 'by His stripes we are healed'.

One comment I'd like you to address further -- a while back you said that God giving us brains to know good and evil puts God on our level. WHY.

You would like to re-write Scripture so You could understand it? You'd like all of Scripture to make sense to you. Having 'all knowledge' Also?!

 

[Sue D.]

@DaveM -- Your article back in post 188 -- I clicked into it -- a very good article. "Did God Create Evil."

 

[Curtis]

I asked for a rebuttal of God being evil. You reply with scripture that says He creates evil. Not even a word to help an unsaved person grasp the context thereto. You are not wielding the word with any skill or taking the need for a rebuttal seriously.

''End of rebuttal'' What did you refute?

Isa 5:20 Those who call evil good and good evil are as good as dead, who turn darkness into light and light into darkness, who turn bitter into sweet and sweet into bitter. (NET)