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Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by Jesus_is_LORD, Jul 12, 2018.
very interesting fellow, he said God does not know everything, because of one line in scripture (see below), saying that means God does not know everything, at 17.35 mark he claims the angel has a message from God but that is not what scriptures says it just says what the angel says it does not mention God told the Angel to say it. 17-45 he actually says there are something God doesnt Know.
He said, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.”
I do not agree with him saying God does not know everything because of this one line in scripture, first off it was a angel that said this, not God. Second ,off God does know everything anyone who thinks he does not makes me very suspicious
Around the 16 minute mark he claims it is because of Abraham that we are here today -.I was not aware of that I thought it because of God??
His thoughts on OSAS are completely wrong as far as what he believes people who believe (OSAS) it think. I am not debating on the doctrine of OSAS as I do not know if it is true or not, but his believe on the doctrine is completely wrong and not well thought out at all.
He makes it sounds like the OT promises to the Jews are the same promises to us today, I am not so sure about that. (23.15 around)
Round the 37-38 min mark he speaks of repentance I really like the way he describes it and how important it is. really like the way he explains faith and what it means.
48 minute mark very cool story
59 mark seems to be suggesting a works based salvation, but I may be mis-understaning... he does bring up good points
overall a very interesting video unique for sure. I do not think he spoke on grace at all just on works but I do agree with a lot of what he said. nice voice
I'll respond to your comments about the video. The heading of the thread says 'an hour of your time and then your thoughts' so apparently the video is an hour long. Don't have that long a listing attention span.
For one thing -- God is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. Having all knowledge. Doesn't God sometimes test us so We can see what kind of a person we really are? God already knew what Abram would do -- apparently Abram needed to put his belief in God into practice. Willingness to step out on faith to see how / what God Will provide.
I'd be a bit suspicious of this guy, too.
It was through Abraham that the Jewish race came into existence. Abraham & Sarah / Isaac and Rebecca // and then Isaac and Reb had Jacob and Essau // Jacob had the 12 sons and was renamed Israel -- 12 tribes of Israel include Judah -- Jesus Christ came from that tribe. Jesus was Jewish. Salvation was extended to the Gentiles in Galations Because the Jewish people would not accept Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah. I guess it would depend on your ancestry -- Jewish background or everyone else /Gentiles.
OSAS -- some feel that having eternal security gives the believer the license to sin. That the born-again believer can 'do anything' and Still go to heaven. It doesn't work that way. Once a person is saved -- they have a new nature -- the Holy Spirit's coming to indwell that person gives them a new perspective on life. New interests -- Godly interests / goals in life. They will have the fruits of the Holy Spirit in them. People Should be able to notice a positive difference in a believer. That doesn't mean we'll never sin again --far from it -- no such thing as sinless perfect while we're here on earth. Only when we're with Jesus Christ / the rapture happens or we die. Maybe you could share what his thoughts are.
Israel is Not the Church. He's suggesting that it Is. So the O.T. promises to the Jews are not meant for the Church.
And, yes, repentence Is very important. As believers we Do need to repent when the Holy Spirit convicts us of our sinful activity/ language / whatever it is we've done that needs forgiveness. One of the 'jobs' of the Holy Spirit is that of convicting of sin. The non-believer to show them their need For salvation. After salvation -- to let us know when we've done something wrong. We're not going to loose our salvation , but we will be grieving the Holy Spirit and impairing our relationship to God.
A person can bring up some very good points that suggest a works-based salvation. But Ephesians 2: 8 and 9 ".....Not of works, lest anyone should boast....." of what they'd done to help their salvation along.
Maybe I will at least Start listening to the video. Time to get something to eat , too and there seem to be some 'responses' to look at.
yes he was saying exactly that about OSAS as a license to sin. I happen to agree with you on what OSAS means, I myself lean to thinking OSAS is true but am not 100% certain either way, I know I am never going back to life I used to lead.
thanks for sharing you insightful thoughts I love learning
One of the problems with OSAS -- is the easy-believism that takes place sometimes. A person goes to church maybe at the prompting of a friend or relative -- the thought is that 'Church" will make a difference in them. But nothing changes with the person. They've gone inside the church and gone back outside as 'lost' as when they entered.
Or a person walks down an aisle in a church or special evangelistic meeting or camp. Maybe the person is taken aside and actually talked with -- Why have they come forward? Maybe they have because their friends have 'gone forward' and they don't want to feel left out. Maybe they Are curious. Maybe they think that 'walking the aisle' Will have a saving merit in it. But they leave as 'lost' as when they got there. And maybe someone reads Scripture to them ,they 'nod' and repeat a prayer and are given some literature about their new life in Christ. Again -- they are Still as lost as when they entered.
So -- what Does make a difference. Start by talking with the person. What Do they believe. What Do they understand. Go over the Roman's Road with them. Do they recognize they Are a sinner -- and what are they needing to be saved From and saved To? As you're talking with the person, you can tell if what you're sharing is making any difference to them. Have Them read a Scripture passage outloud. It's Their potential new relationship with God -- it's God's Word to Them. And sometimes a person will simply not be ready to accept Christ. It can be a bad idea to have them repeat a prayer that you lead them in because it's not Their talking to God. It's really You.
Back many decades ago -- my younger daughter was in first year of grade school. The S. S. teacher was very well intentioned. She made the mistake, though, of asking the kids if they were saved -- then she had them repeat a prayer with her. For a Long time she was Determined that That prayer 'saved' her. She was a good kid -- no problems with her at all. She was always in a Bible teaching church -- had good Christian friends -- met and married a great Christian man. It wasn't until after they had relocated and got around other people -- other preaching that she heard the preacher say something that struck a Different 'chord' in her. On the way out of the church one morning, she asked if she could go back in and talk with pastor's wife. It was Then that she realize she wasn't really a believer After all. She Did accept Christ as her Savior -- continued to be a great young lady and mother -- but with a New inner confidence in Christ that hadn't been there before.
OSAS simply means that the Holy Spirit won't ever leave you Until you are safely in the arms of Jesus. Either at the rapture or upon your death. Absent from the body means immediately in the present of the Lord. A new glorified body.
I enjoy Sharing.
When a person Shares it helps the person Sharing -- understand more what they Do believe. The Holy Spirit works in both people.
Funny reading scripture this morning this very thing was brought to my attention so I wanted to correct it here with scripture and not what I thought was right LOL
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.
I've been researching about Abraham -- he's the central figure in Islam, Judaism and Christianity. The patriarchs are Abraham, Jacob and Isaac.
There's a song we used to sing in VBS -- Father Abraham.
Scripture is Always good to go by.
I Did listen to most of his video earlier. A lot of good points, yes. And, yes, he's very skeptical about OSAS -- he even feels it's a dangerous teaching. A licence to sin.
And before he's willing to baptize a person, he wants proof of their conversion. Through their actions. Their actual turning away from something. Maybe we Do baptize too quickly. And I'm thinking that it's to 'help' people coming from the RCC or those who believe that baptism Is part of salvation -- they baptize right away -- sort of 'sealing' their salvation. It IS meant to be the first act of obedience to Christ -- publically identifying with Christ. When our pastor baptizes a person, he comments that the baptizimal water is no 'holier' than any other water. It comes straight from the city water supply. Because I'm thinking that a priest sprinkles an infant with 'holy water'. Keeping the infant 'safe' just in case something happens to him in infancy.
"We" do infant dedication services -- parents take their infants / very young children down to the front of the church. Any other family members who want to join them can do so. The pastor challenges the parents to start 'now' to read Scripture aloud to them -- family devotions -- to pray for the child -- for wisdom for themselves and other family members in disciplining / teaching from early on. He prays over them and then they go back to their seats or nursery.
I Did "Google" the speaker in the video -- David Pawson -- when he speaks , his Britishness is obvious. He's a well-known evangelist in England --tends towards Pentecostalism.
Part of what he's bringing out is that there Should be a change in a person's attitudes / actions as a result Of their salvation. But he Also questions the correct useage of the term 'saved'. People says they were saved at such and such a time , etc. He said he's looking forward to his complete salvation when he enters eternity. To Me, some of that is a bit "picki-unish". Like you'd commented -- Almost a works-based salvation. He wants people to continue showing 'works' of their salvation. Based on the passage ''working out our salvation ....."
I do find it interesting that just about everyone who believes in OSAS (even here on TJ) also are the same ones
who argue we can never be sinless or perfect.
Is sin meaningless after you get saved? They say you "shouldn't" sin. But there are no consequences if you "do" sin.
"After all you can't lose your salvation"
If I can't lose my salvation, why is sin even relevant?
I wonder... what your opinion of angels is? It may seem like an odd question, but...
Was Satan always a "bad angel"?
If the answer is no, did he have the free will to become a bad angel?
If the answer is yes, do people have this same free will?
Even if they are already in the heavenly kingdom like Satan was.
..or like Adam presumably was... before his "free will" decision separated him from God.
The Bible seems to separate "works of the law", from just things we call "works".
Is obedience to God, a work? Is obeying the commandment a "work"?
If I claim to be saved.... can I live a homosexual lifestyle? Maybe I didn't even do this before I was
saved. Can I commit adultery now? Can I molest children now? Can I kill people now?
Even the demons believe in Jesus... what makes me different?
Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Could it be possible, that these people who have been consumers of the Holy Spirit, .. "and then have fallen away"
Still have the Holy Spirit even after falling away?
Matt 25:8; "The foolish said to the prudent, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.'
What do you think the "oil" is in this passage. What caused these virgins lamps to "go out"?
I am neither for or against OSAS I see scripture to support both cases so I wont debate on that, but I think you know why sin is relevant and to me it seems there is a big difference between practicing sin and living in sin and stumbling in sin and that is why sin relevant IMO to see we have victory over sin now that we are saved but as you have said before especially new christians it will take time to change. This is all stuff I have seen you post before so thank you
Angels are created beings -- We were created a little Lower than angels.
Angels lived around God. There are various Kinds of angels -- archangels -- seraphin -- guardian angels -- they are ministering spirits.
Satan started out as God's Lucifer -- he was God's 'right hand man' the most beautiful angel. Somewhere in Isaiah ? it tells about how Lucifer was very proud -- He wanted to Be God. Dissatisfaction with God's creative choice for him. I'm thinking that "Morning Start" was one of his name designations.
You asked if he had free will to become a bad angel ? (you're sounding a bit like Calvinism)
It depends on if a person believes that 'we' are but puppits and we don't have free will. The FACT is that Lucifer Did rebell and there was a war in heaven and those angels who 'sided' with Lucifer were thrown out of heaven and ended up down here on earth. Thus -- satan and the demonic world. Some of this only God really knows. 'We' tend to want to know Everything.
You're asking if we as human beings have the same 'free will' as the angels do? I'd say No -- because we're Not angels. What do you mean by your question --"Even if they are already in the heavenly kingdom like Satan/Lucifer was or like Adam presumably was -- before Adam was separated from God. Are you suggesting that people become angels when they die? Because they don't. Angels are angels -- people are people.
Jesus Christ died and rose again for People -- mankind. No one else. Maybe you're asking if the 'world' spoken of in John 3:16 would include the 'world' of angels. There is a passage that says that Jesus Christ Could have called the angels to rescue Him from the cross -- but didn't because He knew it had to happen. So - that would indicate that the angels are Not created for that purpose. They are Not redeemable. There Is another thought -- Revelation says that in the end -- satan, the beast and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone forever. It just occurred to me that there's no mention of the demon world. hmmmm never thought of that before just now. Wonder what Does happen to the angelic / demonic world in the end.
The 'works of the law' compared to things we call 'works'. You ask some very thought-provoking questions. There is Nothing we can do to 'help' our salvation along. The cross is / was sufficient. "...not of works, lest any man / woman would become boastful." Jesus Christ does not need our help in providing our salvation. As a believer, God Does have 'works' for us to do. Our doing things for God because we Love Him are a blessing to us. They do Not affect our 'keeping or loosing' our salvation. If a person Is doing a good work in order TO secure their salvation, they are doing those 'works' for the wrong reason.
Is obedience to God a Work? God will give the believer the Desire to do good things in our lives. So we won't see those things As good works.
God Also knows our heart's attitude while we Are doing things for Him. What our inner motive is. Just because He's a Spirit and we can't see Him -- doesn't mean He doesn't 'see' us. He's an omni-present Spirit / Entity. Even the things we do in the 'dark' are seen by Him.
The homosexual Act is an abomination to God -- it's purtrid to Him. A person doesn't accidentally find himself/ herself in bed with someone of the same sex -- IF they are being a responsible person. A person Can get drunk, get high on drugs and not be in control of their actions. So -- in that kind of situation -- a person Might 'wake up' and find they have ended up in a situation by accident. That's One reason why we are told that IF we are going to get 'filled with spirits' -- get filled with the Holy Spirit. Because Then we're not likely to end up in a Bad situation. Like -- in bed with the Wrong person.
There Are those who believe that a person Can be born homosexual and therefore God understands their inner desires and it's , therefore, okay. However, God's directive for marriage is with one man and one woman -- and marriage is the only context in which sexual intimacy is Biblically allowed. SO -- single people are NOT to have a sexual relationship Period. And same-sex unions are only okayed by some of Society -- Not God. That's not saying that some people won't be Tempted to have a sexual relationship with someone of the same sex. But Everyone has the ability to say "NO". Some choices in life Are hard. If we Do find ourselves being attracted to someone of our same sex, take steps to Not follow through with it. Because you would be affecting someone elses emotional , physical health and spiritual health.
Why would we want to purposely do something we Know is putrid to God.
You're also talking about Christian liberty. Being a born-again believer does Not make us immune to sinning. And, yes, we Do have the Holy Spirit indwelling us and we Do have power available to us to Not sin -- that doesn't mean that every time we're tempted we Will resist it or Will give into it. -- Because -- Satan is still alive and Will make our sinful desires look Very desireable. He knows our weaknesses probably better than we do. So -- when something Does 'catch our eye' -- beware. The closer we are to God -- the easier it will be to see the temptation and say No to it. Our closeness to God varies from time to time. But we Don't loose our salvation.
There Are believers who Do commit adultery -- is it okay To? NO.
Just because a person has Christian 'liberty' does Not give us license To sin. In Our eyes some sins are only Little -- in God's eyes -- sin is sin. Whether we end up telling that little white lie or give in to a temptation to molest my next door neighbor or kill / murder someone.
Some of those sins we find hard to imagine a born-again believer doing them -- molesting a child for instance. Our natural instinct is to string up the guy by the thumbs and make him suffer.
Any of these actions on the part of Anyone -- would give reason to be concerned for their salvation. That's why there are prison / jail ministries. People need the Lord. We need to held accountable by other Christians. Not harsh judgement, but loving concern for them. Maybe a person Does have an inner struggle going on and need someone To talk to.
Is a believer Capable of such sins? Could a born-again believer turn To homosexual living. It's Possible. Things happen in childhood that put them leaning that direction. There Can be strong attraction in a wrong direction. Will That send a person to Hell? Talking to a pastor / Biblical counselor can help. A Godly therapist. The only 'thing' that sends a person To hell --is rejecting God's way to Get there.
You made an interesting comment --- "If I Claim to be saved...." A person can Claim anything they Want to -- but does that make it True? As has been stated previously -- when a person's actions don't seem to support their statement -- instead of throwing them out the door -- take time to ask them Why ? that you're concerned about them -- their eternal destination. That you'd Like to have them as a brother / sister in Christ. And how That can be a reality in their life.
I'll be honest -- I've never understood this passage about the oil and the virgins. What are Your thoughts.
OSAS -- is sin meaningless after a person gets saved? No -- there Are consequences when we Do sin -- even though we can't loose our salvation. The 'world' is observing Christians -- how we act -- our 'language'.
One of the consequences of our purposely sinning is how it will affect people around us. Are we Distracting them From Christ? And our own consciences -- a guilty conscience isn't Fun to live with. A guilty conscience Can lead people to all sorts of negative things. People we care about can turn against us because of something we've done.
And, IF we find ourselves Not caring about our sinning -- just Maybe we need to take another look at ourselves. If I consider my salvation as a fire escape and nothing more, than That is not salvation.
My salvation Will make a positive difference in my life. I will care more about people -- will Want to read my Bible more.
Well -- while a person is here on earth -- we Won't be sinless or perfect. We Should be aiming in that direction -- being more and more like Christ. Progressive sanctification.
OSAS does Not mean we'll never sin again. We'll be less likely To, but it does Not prevent sin.
fantastic write up thanks so much for sharing. let me as you for some real world examples of a born again person not being sinless or perfect ( I agree with you BTW). If possible use a examples from a more mature Born again versus a new Chrisitan who may still be struggling.
Jesus said ..... "John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
The foolish virgins never were a true child of God!!! Jesus said to these foolish virgins......
Mat 25:12 and he answering said, Verily I say to you, I have not known you. (YLT)
Every Church were the Holy Spirit is moving in that congregation, every single person there are being made "partakers" of the Holy Spirit. They are "tasting the good Word of God". They are sensing the "powers of the world top come".
You do not need to be a believer to experience that, because God causes the rain of the Holy Spirit to fall upon the just, and the unjust, for he is no respecter of persons.
Mat 5:45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
The lord God will not give any other other proof of his existence then these, and if those who are experiencing these don't accept them, then it will be impossible to get them to repent any other way.
The Apostle Paul, just in case we did not fully understand what he was saying ties it all together in the last few verses.......
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Heb 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
The rain of the Holy Spirit is always good. To those who are good seed, the rain causes the seed to bring forth good fruit unto God. If the seed is bad it only brings forth "thorns" whose end is to be burned.
I'm a good example -- many years ago I thought I was a pretty good Christian woman. That I was 'above' getting mixed up with another man -- I actually Did have a tiny, brief encounter. I had 4 small kids -- grade-school age. But no real adult friendships -- we'd moved around a Lot. We were able to move back into town after a trailer fire in the middle of the night. We were able to get a house about two blocks from school. My idea was to get to know the parents of the kids my kids were playing with. My husband - at that time - worked evenings and weekends. A friendship started with the newly divorced father of some good kids down the street. At the time I didn't realize he Was divorced. His wife had just had a baby and simply wasn't around any more. After a while, I discovered that she'd left him. I would get my kids when it was time to eat in the evenings and he did the same with his kids. He'd give clues that he'd maybe like 'more' but I'd let him know that Nothing was going to happen. i simply wanted friendship. The evening before we were going to move away -- I allowed a very short, quick encounter. My husband found out and it could have wrecked our marriage , but it didn't. And after we'd relocated and a year or so later, God Did allow another 'almost' encounter. Again -- it Could have ruined the marriage. But 'it' never actually happened. God was letting me know that I'm as capable as any other woman -- even as a born-again believer -- to let a relationship 'go too far'.
Satan is out to destroy the family and marriage. Lots of people don't take marriage seriously. Divorce is too easy. Lots of people don't bother Getting married. And then we have the same-sex relationships.
Even -- supposedly, more mature Born again Christians Can and Do SIN.
We acknowledge that we've sinned -- ask forgiveness -- and continue on in life. No Purposely sinning, but sinning just the same. Sometimes we 'allow' things to happen. And live to regret it. We Don't loose our salvation. But we Do learn some important lessons. And we Can share these lessons with others. Christian encouragement is needed by everyone.
Every believer is going to 'struggle' with Something.
Satan knows our weaknesses and makes his 'sin' look really attractive. Other-wise we wouldn't be struggling. If a 'sin' looked like a dried up rotten potato --we'd have No Problem rejecting it. But take the potato and bake it and open it up and put sour cream, butter, other good -tasting stuff on top and WOW. Who would Want to say NO. ( and a white potato turns into starch which really isn't healthy for a person -- it helps us Gain weight --Not Loose weight. and Most of us don't need that extra weight.)
thanks for sharing @Sue D. I do believe a Born again can stumble in sin but will repent and not make a habit or a lifestyle out of it. If a someone claims to be a believer and after 10 years or so is still living in sin I would have to wonder. I dont think a believer can live in sin or practice sin as the bible says. But that is a process and takes time.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 John 3:4
Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
On the other hand accidental sin also occurs, if you kill some one in a car accident for example you did not do it un purpose yet is that still not a sin??
A moment of anger at something for example driving in the car and getting cut off by a person or not being able to get over in the turning lane when you want to turn and you get mad, is that not a sin also?
I get mad sometimes when my equipment for my business brakes according to the bible IMO that is a sin and shows how I fall short.
James 1:20 For the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.
maybe getting angry is not a sin??
Be angry and do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the devil.
Anything that is not loving your neighbor as yourself is that not a sin also??
Is it Possible that a person can make Anything a 'sin'. For instance are we going to be Very careful as to Where we cross a street in a quiet residential area? Careful that we don't 'jay walk' and maybe break a law? Or that we Never, ever raise our voice to our husband / wife/ kids or the family dog? We're human -- God created us with emotions.
Maybe our neighbor has a nasty mouth and they enjoy picniking in their side yard Right Next to your porch where You enjoy nice evening conversation with your family. Are you going to be upset with yourself for getting frustrated listening to Their bad language and nasty stories, etc. Or are you going to be a real 'loving' Christian and start praying a really Loud prayer asking God to forgive their bad language and nasty stories they tell.
Is it possible to get almost paranoid about what's really sinning?
Does a person believe in eternal security? We Don't need to be 'afraid' that if we die just after getting mad at the dog next door, that we'll end up in hell because of it.