A lack of choice?

[Bill]

Thanks I like surprises

God creates after kinds .There is no record of creating an invisible kind,

He alone is God the invisible spiritual kind. He demonstrates his invisible power using the temporal things seen that he faithfully created. "Let there be things seen" and the testimony of the words were "God alone good"

I think you meant messengers according to the Greek Anggelos .

The word "angel" a homonym sounds the same but has apposes meaning. It was not coined until the 10th. century.

It created the illusion of the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after. . . . as if true prophecy.

Lying signs in order to satisfy the oral tradition of dying mankind. A legion of disembodied spirit gods male and female in the likeness of men called today patron saints .

Believers worship one invisible eternal entity. Not a legion of angels (patron saints)

Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

Acts 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.

Gods in likeness of men in order to establish the oral tradition of Roman Greek mythology. Government of men as gods (venerable) that Lord it over the non-venerable pew warmers or show time watchers

1 Samuel 28:12-1412And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.;And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

In that way when Jesus was accused of blasphemy a mere man as if eternal God The Father inspired him and declared

John10:34-36;Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?;If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;;Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

In other words, The first loving commandment. As a god do not put your own self or other gods believers before the one Holy Spirit of eternal life

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Deuteronomy 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Deuteronomy 6:14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;

Tell me, scripture states, "i knew you before you were born" . God created the soul before you were born, what did you look like?

As our bodies are only the temple of the Holy Spirit, what are we like who dwell in this temple?

 

[Bill]

Thanks I like surprises

God creates after kinds .There is no record of creating an invisible kind,

He alone is God the invisible spiritual kind. He demonstrates his invisible power using the temporal things seen that he faithfully created. "Let there be things seen" and the testimony of the words were "God alone good"

I think you meant messengers according to the Greek Anggelos .

The word "angel" a homonym sounds the same but has apposes meaning. It was not coined until the 10th. century.

It created the illusion of the king of lying signs to wonder, wonder, wonder after. . . . as if true prophecy.

Lying signs in order to satisfy the oral tradition of dying mankind. A legion of disembodied spirit gods male and female in the likeness of men called today patron saints .

Believers worship one invisible eternal entity. Not a legion of angels (patron saints)

Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.

Acts 14:11 And when the people saw what Paul had done, they lifted up their voices, saying in the speech of Lycaonia, The gods are come down to us in the likeness of men.

Gods in likeness of men in order to establish the oral tradition of Roman Greek mythology. Government of men as gods (venerable) that Lord it over the non-venerable pew warmers or show time watchers

1 Samuel 28:12-1412And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.;And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

In that way when Jesus was accused of blasphemy a mere man as if eternal God The Father inspired him and declared

John10:34-36;Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?;If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;;Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

In other words, The first loving commandment. As a god do not put your own self or other gods believers before the one Holy Spirit of eternal life

Exodus 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Deuteronomy 5:7 Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

Deuteronomy 6:14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;

Scripture states, we are created in the likeness of God. We are a trinity, as God is a Trinity. Can you name the parts of the trinity that is you? Jesus told us

 

[Bill]

Hello Brad Huber,

The Sovereignty of God is absolutely no minor issue.

Did you notice the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart is specifically attributed to God in verse 13 with "as the LORD had said." (Exodus 7:13 (NASB1995))?

Did you notice @B-A-C's opening statement for his opening post of this thread of "An honest discussion on free-will" (proof post #27)?

Did you notice @B-A-C's opening post of this thread specifically states:

​

7. Exodus 8:15 (NASB95)​

"But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said."​

Pharaoh initially hardened his own heart.​

​

Did you notice that declaring "Pharaoh initially hardened his own heart" in reference to Exodus 8:15 is not honest?

Did you notice that Scripture is devoid of the Word of God declaring man was imparted a free-will ability to choose God?

Did you notice that adding to the Word of God is sin?

Have you ever read “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16 (NASB1995)) and “I chose you out of the world” (The Word of God, John 15:19 (NASB1995), includes salvation)?

Love,
Kermos

"Have you ever read “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16 (NASB1995)) and “I chose you out of the world” (The Word of God, John 15:19 (NASB1995), includes salvation)?"

God chose us out of the world.

Why would God chose if he already knew?

I recognize that God knows all. But I also know that God allows us to choose to follow him or not.

I consider this part of the mystery of God

 

[Garee]

Scripture states, we are created in the likeness of God. We are a trinity, as God is a Trinity. Can you name the parts of the trinity that is you? Jesus told us

Yes, likeness of invisible Gid not likeness of visible dying men

.The original dynamic dual. before the masked hidden man, the Lone Ranger and his interpreter Tonto (LOL)

The invisible Holy Father "Let there be" therefore made known by the temporal dying things seen and "it was God alone good".

The Holy Father's loving law of His Faithful resurrection or rise again power yoked with sons of God, Christian's.

The Holy Spirit of the Holy Father working in the Son of God Jesus one name as power worked in the Son of man Jesus

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name (one) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:(name of the Holy Father)

Of that one powerful Holy Spirit working in many sons of God born again Christians.

One God the Holy Father. One Holy Spirit of the Holy Father

Three which denotes the end of a matter is needed for the queen mother entity form of government.

 

[Kermos]

"Have you ever read “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:16 (NASB1995)) and “I chose you out of the world” (The Word of God, John 15:19 (NASB1995), includes salvation)?"

God chose us out of the world.

Why would God chose if he already knew?

I recognize that God knows all. But I also know that God allows us to choose to follow him or not.

I consider this part of the mystery of God

Hello this third time, Bill,

You asked "Why would God chose if he already knew?" Let's look at how the Word of God responsed to Job with "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding" (Job 38:4).

Your "I also know that God allows us to choose to follow him" directly contradict the Word of God “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16 (NASB1995)) and “I chose you out of the world” (Lord Jesus Christ, John 15:19 (NASB1995), includes salvation).

Would you please answer the questions in the following only 2 prior exchanges which you initiated in the The Dangerous Lie That You Don’t Need to Repent thread?

"Every single person in whom “the work of God” (John 6:29) is worked, then such a person receives belief/faith as delivered by the Author and Perfecter of the Faith (Hebrews 12:2)."

Tell that to Judas Iscariot.

Judas, God used the choices of Judas to do his work. But Judas obviously did not receive faith or believe.

King Nebuchadnezzar was said to be the whip of God in the scripture, and this is before he was converted as a believer. Before God caused him to be as a donkey or a wild beast and it was only after that that he found reverence for God.

Hello for the second time, Bill,

Are you conveying that you think I believe that Judas Iscariot had “the work of God” such “that” Judas Iscariot did “believe in Him whom He has sent”?

Are you also conveying that you think I believe that before God caused Nebuchadnezzar to be as a donkey or a wild beast that Nebuchadnezzar had “the work of God” such “that” Nebuchadnezzar did “believe in Him whom He has sent”?

Bill, you still have not responded to your first interjection to me, below for your convenience.

Oddly enough there are people in the scripture that are more learned than either of you, people who never want to any University ever. People who are simple fishermen and knew more than either of you.

Dear Bill,

What harm have I done to you that you would respond as you did? For Christ is the Wisdom of God (1 Corinthians 1:24), and I am taught by God (John 6:45). I am a simple fisherman in Christ.

Love,
Kermos

 

[KingJ]

If angels were given free will to choose to either obey God (good, light) or disobey God (evil, darkness), how can we know if, sometime in the future, other angels decide to disobey God and cause more problems like Lucifer?

We know God has His "elect" saints who will never perish because he knew who they were before the creation of the world.
God also has His "elect" angels, whom he knew would never disobey Him, or they would not be called His elect angels. God's elect angels will never disobey God and perish.

1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

No no no, this is pushing Calvinism. We and angels become elect after God judges our hearts. There is no need to complicate the relationship or criteria angels have with God. It is identical to ours. Hate what is evil at a depth of intent, leads to true repentance, leads to God accepting you into His family forever.

I do believe that in heaven we will better grasp the fall of angels. I imagine it being at a mortal sin level.

 

[Curtis]

No no no, this is pushing Calvinism. We and angels become elect after God judges our hearts. There is no need to complicate the relationship or criteria angels have with God. It is identical to ours. Hate what is evil at a depth of intent, leads to true repentance, leads to God accepting you into His family forever.

I do believe that in heaven we will better grasp the fall of angels. I imagine it being at a mortal sin level.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

When was all this done, and at what point in history?

God has already "glorified" all those he has "justified," and those he has justified he "called", and those whom he called he "predestined", those who he "foreknew" before time began.


2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Who are those who benefit from knowing this? Only those who have put their faith in Jesus Christ whom the Lord God "foreknew".

 

[B-A-C]

1 Timothy 2:3–4 (NASB)​

"This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

This verse clearly states God's desire for all people to be saved, which supports the idea of God's universal salvific will.

---

2 Peter 3:9 (NASB)​

"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

This verse emphasizes God's patience and His desire that none should perish, again pointing to a universal offer of salvation.

• God foreknew who would freely choose Him.
• Based on that foreknowledge, He predestined those individuals to be conformed to Christ’s image.

This view maintains:

• Human free will: People genuinely choose or reject God.
• God’s sovereignty: He still orchestrates the outcome for those who choose Him.
• Predestination as a result of choice, not the cause of it.

This interpretation preserves both:

• The integrity of human responsibility, and
• The certainty of God’s plan for those who believe.

---

Romans 8:29–30 in This Light​

• "Those whom He foreknew" → God knew in advance who would respond to His grace.
• "He also predestined" → Once they responded, He set their destiny: to be conformed to Christ.
• "Called, justified, glorified" → These are the steps God ensures for those who are His.

This view harmonizes well with verses like:

• John 3:16 – “Whoever believes…”
• 1 Timothy 2:4 – “God desires all to be saved…”
• 2 Peter 3:9 – “Not wishing that any should perish…”

 

[KingJ]

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Foreknowledge refers to knowing in advance who would freely choose to believe. Predestination is not arbitrary; it’s based on God seeing who would accept His grace.

When was all this done, and at what point in history?

God has already "glorified" all those he has "justified," and those he has justified he "called", and those whom he called he "predestined", those who he "foreknew" before time began.

God calls everyone! You are taking 2-3 scriptures and forming a belief system that terribly incriminates Him as partial.

How do you explain these scriptures?

1. 1 Tim 2:3-4 - This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2. 2 Pet 3:9 - The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise… but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

3. Eze 33:11 - I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.

4. Isa 55:11 - Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters

5. Matt 22:14 - For many are called, but few are chosen.

6. John 12:32 - And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself

7. Rev 22:17 - The Spirit and the Bride say, ‘Come!’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come!’ And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

8. 1 John 2:2 - “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

9. 2 Cor 5:14-15 - .One has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves..

10. Heb 2:9 - so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone

11. John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

12. Rom 10:13 - For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

13. Acts 17:30 - God… now commands all people everywhere to repent.

2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Grace was given “in Christ Jesus before the ages began”, not to specific individuals before the world began!

Eph 1:4 - He chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

It's not that God picked specific people to save regardless of their response, but that He chose to save all who are in Christ.

 

[KingJ]

@Curtis

I have asked you before and you refused to answer, do you A. Not care that God is evil or do you B. Not understand what partiality is?

If Calvinism is true, then God:

1. Creates people without giving them the opportunity to be saved.
2. Condemns them eternally for not doing what He made them unable to do.
3. Calls this “grace”, because He was “merciful” to some.

That would be monstrous of God and is completely contrary to the God revealed in Jesus Christ.

James 2:1 - My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.
-------------------------

Partiality is evil because it contradicts the very nature of justice, it elevates some unfairly and punishes others unjustly.

Proverbs 17:15 “He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous are both alike an abomination to the Lord.”

Rom 2:11, Acts 10:34 - For God shows no partiality.

Job 34:12 It is unthinkable that God would do what is wicked and pervert justice!

Deut 16:19 You shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality..

 

[KingJ]

1 Timothy 2:3–4 (NASB)​

This verse clearly states God's desire for all people to be saved, which supports the idea of God's universal salvific will.

---

2 Peter 3:9 (NASB)​

This verse emphasizes God's patience and His desire that none should perish, again pointing to a universal offer of salvation.

• God foreknew who would freely choose Him.
• Based on that foreknowledge, He predestined those individuals to be conformed to Christ’s image.

This view maintains:

• Human free will: People genuinely choose or reject God.
• God’s sovereignty: He still orchestrates the outcome for those who choose Him.
• Predestination as a result of choice, not the cause of it.

This interpretation preserves both:

• The integrity of human responsibility, and
• The certainty of God’s plan for those who believe.

---

Romans 8:29–30 in This Light​

• "Those whom He foreknew" → God knew in advance who would respond to His grace.
• "He also predestined" → Once they responded, He set their destiny: to be conformed to Christ.
• "Called, justified, glorified" → These are the steps God ensures for those who are His.

This view harmonizes well with verses like:

• John 3:16 – “Whoever believes…”
• 1 Timothy 2:4 – “God desires all to be saved…”
• 2 Peter 3:9 – “Not wishing that any should perish…”

AI is pretty amazing, it saves us so much time XD

 

[KingJ]

Hello B-A-C as well as @KingJ and @Gothedral because you "Like" @B-A-C's post,

You opened by indicating that you want to have "An honest discussion on free-will", and I would too.

Largely, I use the term free-will to mean man choosing toward God, emphatically Lord Jesus Christ.

The Sovereignty of God is revealed in your first 6 citations.

The definition of sovereign is "One that exercises supreme, permanent authority" (sovereign defined at The Free Dictionary).

You wrote "I believe this can be because of decisions we make sometimes", but the passages are absent of delegated authority.

In effect, your "I believe this can be because of decisions we make sometimes" elevates man as sovereign which, in turn, translates to God not being sovereign.



Now, B-A-C, you wrote "An honest discussion on free-will", but you wrote "Pharaoh initially hardened his own heart" for your next 3 quotations in Exodus chapters 8, 9, and 10, but chronologically prior to your first quotation which is Exodus 8:15, we find:

​

I will harden Pharaoh’s heart (Exodus 7:3 (NASB1995))​

​

Yet Pharaoh’s heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.​

(Exodus 7:13 (NASB1995))​

​

To be honest, Exodus 7:3 is the Bible's first mention about the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart.

And, Exodus 7:13 is the Bible's second mention of Pharaoh’s heart hardening.

No Word of God states man was imparted the ability to choose toward God.

You wrote "Pharaoh hardening his own heart to God hardening it—illustrates both human responsibility and divine sovereignty working together", but does Holy Scripture state that?



God is faithful (1 Corinthians 10:13 (NASB1995)) is wonderful, and this passage does not say anything about man free-will choosing anything.



Christ's love controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14 (MST&NASB1995))!

My Father in Heaven is so very interested in the minute details about me for my Lord Jesus Christ lovingly tells me "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered" (Matthew 10:29-30 (NASB1995)!



The Word of God declares "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'" (Genesis 3:17 (NASB1995)), so it was not because of their own free-will choice.



Please pay attention to the Apostle's application of Your Hand illuminating God's intimate control of humanity:

​

"O Lord, it is You who made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and all that is in them, who by the Holy Spirit, through the mouth of our father David Your servant, said,​

'Why did the Gentiles rage,​

​

And the peoples devise futile things?​

​

'The kings of the earth took their stand,​

​

And the rulers were gathered together​

​

Against the Lord and against His Christ.'​

​

For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your Hand and Your purpose predestined to occur. And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Your bond-servants may speak Your word with all confidence, while You extend Your hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Your holy servant Jesus."​

(Acts 4:24-30 (NASB1995) - the Apostle Peter and the Apostle John and the Assembly of God were together when they lifted their voices to God with one accord)​

​

Look carefully, for the Assembly of God unison prayer to God includes Pontius Pilate to do whatever Your Hand predestined to occur. That is a specific person under the direct influence of the Lord God Almighty to murder the innocent Son of Man.

The Lord God Almighty lovingly sent the Son of God to redeem God's chosen persons. God is love.

The Lord God Almighty is always good:

​

No one is good except God alone​

(Lord Jesus Christ, Mark 10:18 (NASB1995)).​

​

The Lord God Almighty establishes which of man perceive God:

​

I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes​

(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 11:25 (NASB1995)).​

​

The Lord God Almighty declares the Sovereignty of God "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (Lord Jesus Christ, John 3:3 (NASB1995)) for The Lord God Almighty alone is Savior of the world.

The Lord God Almighty had the Apostle Peter declare God's preservation of God's chosen persons as well as self-willed persons punishment, all the declaration showing the Power of God:

​

"The Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority; daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties"​

(2 Peter 2:9-10 (NASB1995)).​

​

The Lord God Almighty graciously imparts belief into God's chosen persons according to God's good will “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29 (NASB1995)).

The Lord God Almighty declares man is accountable to God:

​

I tell you that every careless word that men speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.​

(Lord Jesus Christ, Matthew 12:36 (NASB1995))​

​

The Lord God Almighty declares to man his thoughts:

​

behold, he who forms the mountains and creates the wind, and declares to man what is his thought, who makes the morning darkness, and treads on the heights of the earth— the LORD, the God of hosts, is his name!​

(Amos 4:13 (NASB1995))​

​

The Lord God Almighty conveyed through the Apostle Paul of people who exalt the creature above the Grand Creator:

​

"Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false"​

(2 Thessalonians 2:11 (NASB1995)).​

​

The Lord God Almighty lovingly causes God's chosen persons to will according to God's Way (John 14:6), and God lovingly causes God's chosen persons to work joyfully according to God's Way:

​

"it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure"​

(Philippians 2:13 (NASB1995)).​

​

The Lord God Almighty is glorified with “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, so that his works may be manifested as having been wrought in God” (The Word of God, John 3:21 (NASB1995)).

The unearned love of God is described here “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)



Joshua expresses a conditional logic statement in Joshua 24:15, and a conditional logic statement is normally an IF/THEN construct, for example:

IF condition THEN predicate

Stated in a more Joshua 24:15 focused fashion.

IF you_do_this that_will_happen

Thus, the conditional expresses an action in the condition (you_do_this), and the effectual result in the predicate (that_will_happen).

A conditional does not convey ability to the recipient of the conditional.

Now, the conditional logic statement Joshua expressed was "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD" (Joshua 24:15 (NASB1995)), so the condition (you_do_this) is "to serve the LORD is disagreeable in your eyes"; furthermore, Joshua 24:15 contains no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God . The condition Joshua expressed states the condition/state-of-being/nature of the person.

Disagreeable does not mean choose.

In the predicate Joshua provides only false gods to choose among for the those people whose nature is against the LORD, for Joshua said "choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living" (Joshua 24:15 (NASB1995)), and the word "choose" in this verse is translated from בָּחר (bachar) (Strong's Number 977).

Finaly, Joshua departs the logic statement by declaring "but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD", and there is no reference to "choice" nor "free will" towards God (Joshua 24:15 (NASB1995)).

A state of being, "disagreeable", is mentioned in Joshua 24:15, and action, "serve", is mentioned in Joshua 24:15.

There is no choice towards God mentioned in Joshua 24:15.



Moses states not that God imparted man with the ability to choose God, not even a command to choose God:

​

I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving the LORD your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.​

(Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (NASB1995))​

​

Take note, Moses referred to choosing living in the land, not choosing God; furthermore, the people failed to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His judgments
(Deuteronomy 30:16 (NASB1995), see also "where the LORD your God has banished you in Deuteronomy 30:1 (NASB1995)) - no one can succeed apart from Christ (John 15:5) - God redeems by the only Way (John 14:6) which is the Blood of Jesus the Lord who died on the cross then victoriously arose from the dead!

Love,
Kermos

Would you mind summarizing your belief?

It sounds like you are a Calvinist as you are disagreeing with BAC, but I don't want to assume.

 

[Kermos]

Would you mind summarizing your belief?

It sounds like you are a Calvinist as you are disagreeing with BAC, but I don't want to assume.

Hello KingJ,

By God's grace, for God's glory, I believe in Lord Jesus Christ.

The gracious Benefactor, Christ, of us Christians exclusively produces

1. divine choice of we beneficiaries unto salvation, for the Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19)
   AND, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Ephesians “Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly [places] in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him in love” (Ephesians 1:3-4)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 15:16 and John 15:19 state God exclusively chooses us believers by/of/through God
2. beneficiaries’ faith/belief in Lord Jesus, for the Christ of us Christians says (see also a word about belief/faith (Greek πίστις pistis) and believe (Greek πιστεύω pisteuó))
   “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent” (John 6:29)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for Paul wrote to the Ephesians “by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His work” (Ephesians 2:8-10)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for Peter declared “God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith” (Acts 15:8-9)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 6:29 state for us believers to believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent is exclusively by/of/through God
3. beneficiaries’ fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21)
   AND Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God
4. beneficiaries’ birth by the Holy Spirit, for the Christ of us Christians says "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the Kingdom of God" (John 3:3) as well as “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit” (John 3:5-8)
   AND Peter is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to persons residing as aliens “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:5-8 state we believers being born again is exclusively by/of/through God
5. beneficiaries’ repent by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25)
   AND the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward)
6. beneficiaries’ love by God’s working, for the Christ of us Christians says
   “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34)
   AND John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7, see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love)
   AND John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16, see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love”)
   SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God

And here we have the exclusive Way with absolute Truth in everlasting Life (John 14:6), the love of Christ controls us Christians (2 Corinthians 5:14)!

Love,
Kermos

 

[Garee]

I have asked you before and you refused to answer, do you A. Not care that God is evil or do you B. Not understand what partiality is?

If Calvinism is true, then God:

1. Creates people without giving them the opportunity to be saved.
2. Condemns them eternally for not doing what He made them unable to do.
3. Calls this “grace”, because He was “merciful” to some.

Christ our confidence (Philippians 1:6) the powerful opportunity by which mankind can be saved, called a work of faith, the unseen power of Christ's "Let there be" labor of love.

The "let there be work" testified by "it is very good" at the end of each new "Let there be" .

Having finished all the work of his faithfulness we can rest if we hear his voice (sola scriptura) and harden not our hearts.

It would seem many leave out the valuable mixing recipe when rightly dividing the parables (mysteries of the unseen eternal) called faith

Therefore, hiding the unseen (let there be) from the father of lies and his lying wonders as if true prophecy. He has no spiritual ,gospel understnding. He rejects sola scriptura insisting men look to signs and wonder as if true prophecy (sola scriptura)

Satan focuses on the temporal dying historical and not the invisible eternal things of Our Holy Father

The recipe below should be first and foremost of any Bible study.

It would seem some are blinded by the hidden gospel and deny its "Let there be "power

2 Corinthians 4:3-4;But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:;In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Note . . .Bolded black . . . things that have no life the historical temporal dying mankind

Noe . . . Bolded red . . .things not seen the eternal

2 Corinthians 4:18;While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

No mixing or rightly interpreting the parables then no gospel rest (spiritual understnding

Hebrews 4Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.;For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Parables open Christ's understanding hiding it from the god of this world

Luke 24:44-46; Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

​

.

 

[Bill]

Foreknowledge refers to knowing in advance who would freely choose to believe. Predestination is not arbitrary; it’s based on God seeing who would accept His grace.



God calls everyone! You are taking 2-3 scriptures and forming a belief system that terribly incriminates Him as partial.

How do you explain these scriptures?

1. 1 Tim 2:3-4 - This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2. 2 Pet 3:9 - The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise… but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

3. Eze 33:11 - I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.

4. Isa 55:11 - Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters

5. Matt 22:14 - For many are called, but few are chosen.

6. John 12:32 - And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself

7. Rev 22:17 - The Spirit and the Bride say, ‘Come!’ And let the one who hears say, ‘Come!’ And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

8. 1 John 2:2 - “He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

9. 2 Cor 5:14-15 - .One has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves..

10. Heb 2:9 - so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone

11. John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life

12. Rom 10:13 - For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

13. Acts 17:30 - God… now commands all people everywhere to repent.



Grace was given “in Christ Jesus before the ages began”, not to specific individuals before the world began!

Eph 1:4 - He chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

It's not that God picked specific people to save regardless of their response, but that He chose to save all who are in Christ.

That is pretty much what everyone does . Taking two or three lines to agree with themselves. Even in the case of many other here they'll take 10 scriptures that agree with them even though not all the scripture does.

I've always told people that all scripture has to agree with itself not just a part of it. So if it seems like there is something condensing in the scripture itself that means that we are missing something. Whether it is our own understanding or the way it's translated. As an example in some Bibles it says "love your enemy", and I've actually read it in one Bible that says in the same passage "love evil".

As you can see it's extremely misleading. When I hear preaching done in the same manner, even though I'm not supposed to stand up in the middle of the preaching I will stand up and exclaim that this is wrong. Because to me that is poison being put into people's minds

 

[Curtis]

God calls everyone! You are taking 2-3 scriptures and forming a belief system that terribly incriminates Him as partial.

Does God know everyone who will come to salvation before he created time? Is God that smart?

What you call "partial," God calls" omniscience" (all knowing)

 

[Bill]

Does God know everyone who will come to salvation before he created time? Is God that smart?

What you call "partial," God calls" omniscience" (all knowing)

Yes, God knows

 

[KingJ]

Does God know everyone who will come to salvation before he created time?

No. I gave you many scriptures showing that fact.

Is God that smart?

Yes. Being smart does not default into Him being evil.

That is your inserted assumption.

What you call "partial," God calls" omniscience" (all knowing)

Curtis, I believe you are trolling or really clueless on what partiality is.

Partiality is favouritism. That from a God creator is not just unjust, it is monstrous.

Scripture is clear that God is both omniscient and impartial at the same time. As good as He is great.

A human can only explain this as Him needing to limit His omniscience in order to uphold being good. We see everyday, when evil takes place that He limits His omnipotence in dealing with it. Why is it so hard to teach that He also limit His omniscience?

Your problem is that you are defining God off of one word 'omniscient' and the dictionary definition of it.

You cannot fail harder at representing God to the lost.

There are PLENTY examples where we see God restrict Himself in order to uphold being good. The entirety of Jesus on earth as a lamb to the slaughter who gets completed abandoned by God the Father is an example of this,

---------------

I see you took no stab at the scriptures given to you and your play is to sound witty and push and suggest something truly silly. ''''You are saying that partiality is omniscience'''. Why don't you better explain what you mean by that please.

I asked you previously;

Explain either:

A. How unconditional election type predestination is not partiality? or

B. How partiality is a good thing and not pure 10/10 evil.

Scripture is crystal clear that God is impartial. Do you really not understand that non arbitrary predestination for salvation and impartiality are mutually exclusive?

Please, please, please STOP DANCING!!!!

 

[Garee]

Does God know everyone who will come to salvation before he created time? Is God that smart?

What you call "partial," God calls" omniscience" (all knowing)

Yes as the lamb slain during the 6 days The Holy Father Christ did work

it is not a matter of being smart but is being faithfully powerful .The "let there be kind".

God is not served by the hands of dying mankind .

He can send a unbeliever with the gospel just as easily as one that does have the faith or power of Christ.

 

[B-A-C]

W

He can send a unbeliever with the gospel just as easily as one that does have the faith or power of Christ.

This is what I take away you are saying here,

1. God’s foreknowledge is affirmed—He knows who will be saved before time began.
2. They shift the focus from God being “smart” to being faithfully powerful—emphasizing divine faithfulness over intellect.
3. They link this to creation language (“Let there be”)—suggesting God’s power is in His word and will.
4. They assert that God is not served by human hands, referencing Acts 17:25.
5. They claim God can use unbelievers to deliver the gospel, just as easily as believers.

My response -
“I agree that God’s foreknowledge is perfect and that He is faithfully powerful—not just wise, but sovereign. And yes, Acts 17 reminds us that God is not served by human hands as though He needed anything. I also believe God can use anyone—even unbelievers—to accomplish His purposes, as we see with Cyrus in Isaiah. But I think it’s important to distinguish between God’s sovereign use of people and the personal relationship He calls us into through faith. Delivering the gospel isn’t just about being a vessel—it’s about being transformed by it.”

“How do you see the role of faith in those who carry the gospel? Is it purely functional, or does it reflect a deeper relationship with Christ?”

While Acts 17:25 says:

“Nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything…”

—this verse is emphasizing that God is self-sufficient, not that He is never served by human hands. In fact, Scripture is full of examples where God is served through human action, and He commands it.

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Biblical Examples of God Being Served by Human Hands​

Here are just a few:

1.​

• Leviticus 8–10: Priests serve God by offering sacrifices, maintaining the altar, and performing rituals.
• Hebrews 10:11: “Every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices…”

2.​

• Moses, Elijah, Elisha, and others served God by delivering His word and performing His will.
• Jeremiah 7:25: “I have sent to you all My servants the prophets…”

3.​

• Acts 6:4: “But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.”
• Romans 12:1: Paul urges believers to present their bodies as a living sacrifice, which is their reasonable service.

4.​

• John 13: Jesus washes the disciples’ feet — a physical act of service.
• Philippians 2:7: He “took upon Him the form of a servant…”

---

Theological Balance​

• God doesn’t need human service, but He chooses to work through it.
• Human hands serve God when they obey His commands, minister to others, and glorify Him.
• The idea that God can use unbelievers is true (e.g., Cyrus in Isaiah 45), but that doesn’t negate the value and calling of faithful service.