A discussion on hell moved from thread What if you die tonight

[Br. Bear]

Greetings KingJ,

It may be that you are confusing the idea of love that you talk about with the Love that we are called to, which is a covenant bond (of love).
The Apostle Paul spoke something of this when explaining Christ's love for the Church.

This sort of love is nothing to do with any feelings, whether they be for penguins or the devil.
We are NOT to have any covenant bond with the devil nor satan nor any fallen/cursed angel, end of story.

We are however called to enter into one Covenant bond with the One who loved us and gave Himself a ransom for us; to abide in Him, together, in fellowship, the fellowship of His love.

With such love I pray for you to be filled with and to rejoice in as for all here.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings all,

thread open again,

post in peace.


Bless you ....><>

 

[KingJ]

Greetings KingJ,

It may be that you are confusing the idea of love that you talk about with the Love that we are called to, which is a covenant bond (of love).
The Apostle Paul spoke something of this when explaining Christ's love for the Church.

This sort of love is nothing to do with any feelings, whether they be for penguins or the devil.
We are NOT to have any covenant bond with the devil nor satan nor any fallen/cursed angel, end of story.

We are however called to enter into one Covenant bond with the One who loved us and gave Himself a ransom for us; to abide in Him, together, in fellowship, the fellowship of His love.

With such love I pray for you to be filled with and to rejoice in as for all here.


Bless you ....><>

I am not proposing we have a ''love covenant' of sort with the devil or any wicked person. That would be foolishness.

I am proposing that we be who we are. It is in a Christian's DNA to love their enemies.

If we are ok with God, an angel or any saint approving of torture of the enemy IE hatred, then I believe we are on the wrong side of the fence.

You asked earlier what being burnt in fire has to do with hatred. I give a crystal clear explanation in the first paragraph of my post # 31.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

One can HATE, sin and evil and the devil and NOT be full or consumed by hatred. In Fact one can be overflowing with Love and still hate sin and evil.

Once again......
This passage in Luke is REFERRING to people. Not spirit but flesh and blood people.

But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.
29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them.
30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back.
31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.
32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you?
Even sinners love those who love them.
33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that.
34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you?
Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.
35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be childrenI of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Blessings to you

 

[KingJ]

One can HATE the devil

How do you hate the devil?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

How do you hate the devil?

Well with my entire being.
I detest everything about him and look for any way to expose him in some ones life.
Seeing strong holds destroyed and the captives set free.

Loving PEOPLE the entire time.
Blessings to you

 

[KingJ]

Well with my entire being.
I detest everything about him and look for any way to expose him in some ones life.
Seeing strong holds destroyed and the captives set free.

Loving PEOPLE the entire time.
Blessings to you

It is fine to say we detest someone. That is not hating.

I detest a sick person breathing on me. There is still room for love if we detest someone.

I can see Nero saying he put Christians on pikes because he detests them. All would agree. They would also have no doubt that he hated them. If before he put them on pikes, he said he detests them. I doubt many would foresee him desirous of putting them on pikes. But if he said he hates them. Utterly hates them. Well then any sane person would be afraid of what is to come. Especially if the person making such a statement had power.

If you are changing the definition of hate, you are simply moving the goal posts. Let me show you the goal post. You can then explain to me if this is your idea of hatred for someone. If not, what would you call it?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

It is fine to say we detest someone. That is not hating.

I detest a sick person breathing on me. There is still room for love if we detest someone.

I can see Nero saying he put Christians on pikes because he detests them. All would agree. They would also have no doubt that he hated them. If before he put them on pikes, he said he detests them. I doubt many would foresee him desirous of putting them on pikes. But if he said he hates them. Utterly hates them. Well then any sane person would be afraid of what is to come. Especially if the person making such a statement had power.

If you are changing the definition of hate, you are simply moving the goal posts. Let me show you the goal post. You can then explain to me if this is your idea of hatred for someone. If not, what would you call it?

Do you ever quit? ROTFL

You asked how I hate the devil and I answered and now you got me changing the definition to hate and once again adding people.

Why?
Blessings to you and your family

 

[KingJ]

Do you ever quit? ROTFL

You asked how I hate the devil and I answered and now you got me changing the definition to hate and once again adding people.

Why?
Blessings to you and your family

I don't quit. Especially not when someone says God hates a being. Leaving thoughts of a wicked God in everyone's mind.

I am not going to get frustrated with you anymore. I am just glad that everyone can see how you evade questions.

I find your statement ''you hate with your entire being'' interesting. Now you just have to imagine someone holding a gun whilst saying that to you, to understand my point.

 

[KingJ]

once again adding people.

You say God hates angels. That is on par with saying He hates mankind. We are all a creation to God. So your bubble of ''I am on earth and a human, so it refers to humans only'' is not an explanation.

Will you hate humans in the hereafter? When they are in the same home as the fallen angels you hate.

 

[Dave M]

@KingJ are you saying God loves the devil and the demons?

 

[Dave M]

please do not argue with the word of God


Hosea 9:15
The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels.

 

[Br. Bear]

@KingJ
Greetings,

a Christian's DNA

excuse my ignorance, please. I have no idea what you are talking about and can not say I have ever read anything in any translation of Scripture that mentions such a thing.

Regarding your reply to my post that you replied to, the point I had tried to make was that as far as I know, we have no covenant with angels and none whatsoever with the Devil or Satan or any other entity that you label as 'beings'.
That has close to nothing to do with love or hate. A covenant is a covenant. for the sake of using words, an agreement is and agreement. A legal agreement is a legal agreement.
As you are probably aware, the covenants that God made were sealed with Blood. The covenant we are in and under has been sealed with the precious Blood of the Son. It is to Him Who we answer and obey and until this point, I for one have not been told to love the Devil or Satan.

I understand where you are coming from and that to appease an atheist argument we should wipe the notion of hate from our entire life because an atheist and other anti Christian or anti religious sort is always looking for ways to prove that God and Christians are hypocrites and the like.

Perhaps the whole understanding we have is warped somewhere but one thing I can attest to is that we have no covenant with the Devil. Full stop.

Greetings KingJ,

It may be that you are confusing the idea of love that you talk about with the Love that we are called to, which is a covenant bond (of love).
The Apostle Paul spoke something of this when explaining Christ's love for the Church.

This sort of love is nothing to do with any feelings, whether they be for penguins or the devil.
We are NOT to have any covenant bond with the devil nor satan nor any fallen/cursed angel, end of story.

We are however called to enter into one Covenant bond with the One who loved us and gave Himself a ransom for us; to abide in Him, together, in fellowship, the fellowship of His love.

With such love I pray for you to be filled with and to rejoice in as for all here.


Bless you ....><>

Our part is or should be filled and full with keeping our side of the Covenant with God which from my mere experience is full time and there is little room or should be, for any other thing or matter. What happens later is God's business and while we have a few writings in Scripture about some things that will be happening, to me, to be busy here and now is what is vital, not gazing too far beyond and trying to imagine the sort of dilemma that you are proposing. That's me, though, so you can not judge all by my personal take on my work to be done now and my way of seeing that the time after resurrection is way beyond my scope and because i trust my Lord Who gave His all for me, I am not going to bend the rules of my Saviour's Covenant for us before God in order to please anyone, nor to accommodate the devil into my love.
Had we been instructed to love the Devil, to love Satan ,as part of the fulfilling of the Covenant, then OK, we should be doing that... BUT, there is no such thing in the covenant that I am aware of.
Thankfully for us all, the Lord Himself has and is the One Who fulfils the Covenant for us as our representative before God. When I see Him kissing and cuddling the Devil and saying to me and you to do likewise, I shall, but until then, I will continue to follow Him not you or any other person on the planet no matter how much they have nice ideas concerning love and hate.

There is a way to come to your suggestion but to get there we have to ditch a great big chunk of our thinking to allow to learn a different view of all of God's plan and purpose of our lives. Whether we go there or not, here, I am not too sure about. But again, our place NOW is to obey Him Who is our Lord and Master and to keep His Commandments which is all about loving God and loving fellow people.. and if we do this He is faithful to be our ambassador for eternity.

Whatever God will do with Satan is totally His business and definitely not mine. I am quite sure it is none of your business either, so let us be so doing, that when He comes, He will find us doing, that which He has told us to do.


Bless you and thank you for your reply ....><>

 

[KingJ]

@KingJ are you saying God loves the devil and the demons?

Yes.

Hosea 9:15 The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels.

Hyperbole. Exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

Take for example:

Malachi 1:2-3 Yet Jacob I have loved; but Esau I have hated.

God shows preference? Acts 10:34 and many more scriptures yell a crystal clear 'hell no'.

Luke 14:26 If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

Our 'entire being' must be filled with utter hatred for our baby child before we can serve Jesus?

This is what God hates. Prov 6:16-19 These six things the Lord hates, yes, seven are an abomination to Him: a proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren. IE God hates sin, not the sinner. Albeit an angel. Or do you still believe it is literal, as in God hates '''feet'' that run to evil?

Please just meditate on the fact that if God tells us to love our enemies, yet hates His, He would be a hypocrite. God is not a hypocrite.

What evidence do you have of God hating His enemy? I agree with your statement. Lets not argue with the word. Let's discuss the evidence. No cherry picking verses that mention the ''word'' hatred (no offence to you, many are doing it :wink.

Preaching that God hates anyone is heresy. Heresy. Heresy. We must wake up and stop preaching falsely on our God. Our God is good. Full stop. He makes a home for the wicked. He doesn't have to. That is love.

 

[KingJ]

excuse my ignorance, please. I have no idea what you are talking about and can not say I have ever read anything in any translation of Scripture that mentions such a thing.

Christians have God's DNA = 2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

God's DNA = 1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1 John 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. Psalm 136:1 Give thanks, because God is good.

Regarding your reply to my post that you replied to, the point I had tried to make was that as far as I know, we have no covenant with angels and none whatsoever with the Devil or Satan or any other entity that you label as 'beings'. That has close to nothing to do with love or hate. A covenant is a covenant. for the sake of using words, an agreement is and agreement. A legal agreement is a legal agreement.

I am not sure why you harp on this. Do we love our wives because we have a marriage contract to them?

God is who He is. God does not change. Num 23:19 God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

If today we give thanks because He is good. Rest assured tomorrow or in heaven we will continue to do so. IE If God was torturing people in hell, no Christian would give thanks. God would change.

We need to ask how a good God, with no darkness in Him at all, deals with those that hate Him. Then jump to a picture of hell. Not create our picture of hell off of a 'word' we read, like 'fire'.

 

[KingJ]

I understand where you are coming from and that to appease an atheist argument we should wipe the notion of hate from our entire life because an atheist and other anti Christian or anti religious sort is always looking for ways to prove that God and Christians are hypocrites and the like.

We need to know the truth for a discussion with an atheist. That is all. It is not to appease them. They have applied their minds to the subject and chosen to go in an opposite to God direction.

I just want to be crystal clear, I am not espousing hell to be a nice place.

People do weep and gnash their teeth. They look up and see that they are cast out Luke 13:28. Not due to God placing them in a brazen bull of sort.

Perhaps the whole understanding we have is warped somewhere but one thing I can attest to is that we have no covenant with the Devil. Full stop.

On any subject of the future, unless we are Daniel, we can get it wrong. But this is still no excuse for heresy. Our acid test is taking scriptural definitions of God and actual evidence of the current and past. If we knew that God had placed somebody in a brazen bull. It would come as no surprise that He do it in the hereafter. I will debate all day and night with anybody that accuses God of ever being wicked in His choice of punishment. I am fully convinced that there is no evidence. I am waiting for this thread to go in that direction.

Our part is or should be filled and full with keeping our side of the Covenant with God which from my mere experience is full time and there is little room or should be, for any other thing or matter. What happens later is God's business

We can say that because we trust God. But we must make clear to others why it is that we trust God.

Re-visit Dave's post here Moses changes Gods Mind. These are examples of God being an open book. God wanting us to test Him to see if He is good. If we agree with Him. He wants us to be convinced that He is good. So much evidence points in that direction. So many examples in the bible.

Had we been instructed to love the Devil, to love Satan ,as part of the fulfilling of the Covenant, then OK, we should be doing that... BUT, there is no such thing in the covenant that I am aware of.

We show love for God by not hating the devil. We hate the devils deeds. In the hereafter I do believe we will have opportunity to interact with him and 'be loving and kind to him'.

I want you to consider how we should treat a person who is utterly wicked. A devil of sort that is in our space. Let's say a serial rapist who laughs at his victims in court. He has no remorse. We are convinced he will not repent before he dies. What do we do. If we were the judge. (Valid question as 1 Cor 6 says we will judge the world):

A. Imprisonment with Rehabilitation efforts
B. Lethal injection
C. Place him in a cell where he is raped repeatedly for 25 years
D. Place him in a cell where he is raped repeatedly for eternity

If our answer is A or B we pass on Christianity. If our answer is C or D, we need to place ourselves in that cell.

When I see Him kissing and cuddling the Devil and saying to me and you to do likewise, I shall, but until then, I will continue to follow Him not you or any other person on the planet no matter how much they have nice ideas concerning love and hate.

When Jesus said Matt 5:44 ''love your enemy'', I can promise you He did not expect us to interpret it as ''kissing and cuddling''.

We are discussing the difference between the Geneva convention signed by Roosevelt and Churchill verse Russian torture / eye for an eye type punishment.

 

[KingJ]

There is a way to come to your suggestion but to get there we have to ditch a great big chunk of our thinking to allow to learn a different view of all of God's plan and purpose of our lives. Whether we go there or not, here, I am not too sure about. But again, our place NOW is to obey Him Who is our Lord and Master and to keep His Commandments which is all about loving God and loving fellow people.. and if we do this He is faithful to be our ambassador for eternity.

Whatever God will do with Satan is totally His business and definitely not mine. I am quite sure it is none of your business either, so let us be so doing, that when He comes, He will find us doing, that which He has told us to do.

Bless you and thank you for your reply ....><>

I could not disagree more.

When I became a Christian. I had to be convinced I was serving a good God. I was. So I became one.

As a Christian I have grown in knowledge of God's love. I have desired to grow because God is love. Because God is so good.

Now you are proposing that it is not my place to correct and rebuke those espousing a wicked God to the unsaved? Not happening.

We must get this right. Many are turned off God and Christianity because many get this wrong.

Preachers use hell fire and brimstone messages to get tithes and increased church attendance. We can preach on hell and the suffering of it. But let's do so properly. As I have said before I am not suggesting hell is a nice place. There are reasons God uses words like fire and death. He compares it to heaven. Any place outside of heaven is death and fire to God. This does not mean God is guilty of creating something evil. All that God creates is good.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

am not going to get frustrated with you anymore. I am just glad that everyone can see how you evade questions.

I have answered your questions.
If I ignore some it is because once again you are confusing the issue by adding and twisting things.

We show love for God by not hating the devil. We hate the devils deeds. In the hereafter I do believe we will have opportunity to interact with him and 'be loving and kind to him'.

We show Love to God by being obedient unto His ways and putting Him first.

There is only one way you will see the devil in the here after. ...
That is if you reside in HELL as well.

Will you hate humans in the hereafter? When they are in the same home as the fallen angels you hate.

Again you bring in confusion.
I have STATED over and over I do not hate people period.

Blessings to you

 

[B-A-C]

We show love for God by not hating the devil. We hate the devils deeds. In the hereafter I do believe we will have opportunity to interact with him and 'be loving and kind to him'.

You are deceived. Angels cannot be redeemed. In the hereafter the only place you'll be able to interact with Satan is in the Lake of Fire.

You severely underestimate the Holiness of God. What kind of God would let rebellious people who hate him run around heaven?
Certainly not the God of the Bible. The Bible says these people will be thrown into the Lake of Fire... period. Any other answer is wrong... period.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I want you to consider how we should treat a person who is utterly wicked. A devil of sort that is in our space. Let's say a serial rapist who laughs at his victims in court. He has no remorse. We are convinced he will not repent before he dies. What do we do. If we were the judge. (Valid question as 1 Cor 6 says we will judge the world):

A. Imprisonment with Rehabilitation efforts
B. Lethal injection
C. Place him in a cell where he is raped repeatedly for 25 years
D. Place him in a cell where he is raped repeatedly for eternity

If our answer is A or B we pass on Christianity. If our answer is C or D, we need to place ourselves in that cell.

Again you are confusing the issue.

The subject of this story of yours will fall under the law of the land.

Just because we as Christians forgive and love does not mean one is not held responsible for their actions .

If the subject repented unto God before he dies then he too shall be in heaven.

It's just that simple.