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10 End Time Prophecies

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Member
Well, of course you know that the bible is full of fact too...Not just symbolism but it also says things just the way they are, just the way they will be...I believe the book of Revelation is full of factual things as well as symbolic. To say the locust are the Arabs is akin to saying the Antichrist is the pope....
No it's not. You can't quote one verse where there's something specifically figurative of the Pope. There's NO DOUBT the locust represent the Arabs in the Old Testament who are MUSLIMS today! So, I repeat...

Speaking of the Arabs, Judges 6:5 say’s...
"For they came up with their cattle and their tents, and they came as [COLOR=#336600]grasshoppers for multitude[/COLOR]; for both they and their camels were without number: and they entered into [COLOR=#006633]the land to destroy it."[/COLOR]

Arab tribes and are associated with grasshoppers or ‘LOCUST.’ Gesenius says that the Midianites are of an Arab nation, and the Amalekites are the descendants of Esau. In Genesis 37:25 the Midianites seem identified with the Ishmaelites. Strong's says Midian or Midianite' = "strife."

Nahum says about the [COLOR=#006600]Arabs... "Make thyself many as the locusts." Nah.3:5 [/COLOR]


Now you show me where there's a specific figurative reference to the Pope. You can't do it because it doesn't exist.

Nearly the entire chapter of Joel 2 is end-time prophecy. Look. what he says about the locust...

[COLOR=#006600]And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten,[/COLOR] the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

This verse tells me that Israel will be devoured by Arabic tribes and clans i.e. Muslims, but when Christ returns Israel will be restored.

A.R. Fausset said,

25. locust. . . cankerworm. . . caterpiller. . . palmer worm--the reverse order from Joe 1:4, where (see on JF & B for Joe 1:4) God will restore not only what has been lost by the full-grown consuming locust, but also what has been lost by the less destructive licking locust, and swarming locust, and gnawing locust.

There were over 200 Arab tribes in Iraq before 911. Northern Africa has over 250 Arab tribes and clans. That I believe is what Joel is referring to. ARAB TRIBES AND CLANS. The offspring of Babylon the Great.

Israel is surrounded by every kind of locust.

[COLOR=#0000b3]An old woman once said to her grandson, "Prophecy was meant to fool us."[/COLOR]

Revelation and much of end-time prophecy is written in riddles. On the surface, it just makes no sense. Much of it has a hidden and sometimes, dual meaning. It's like a puzzle with pieces that don't fit and we have to use logic and common sense to make them fit. A hermeneutic.

A beast with two horns that imposes a mark? A beast with seven heads and ten horns with a harlot sitting upon it? Eating a book? The leviathan is a "king over the children of disobedience? A woman is a city? A beast with a fatal head wound that's healed and returns?

There's so much figurative stuff that makes no sense, so we shouldn't limit or understanding by adhering to only one view.....We need to be open minded and employ a sensible hermeneutic to make any sense of it at all. Sometimes there's BOTH a literal and figurative meaning hidden in it.

So when it comes to Revelation 9 which is chuck full of symbols depicting literal events with demonic influence and possible demon possession, we need to open our minds a bit to understand it. AND ACCEPT WHAT TRUTHS WE DO SEE IN IT. We have to look at the entire picture. Not just the 200 million and say it's China.
[COLOR=#006666]
The east wind is said to bring the locust. [/COLOR]


Exodus 10:13 And Moses stretched forth his rod over the land of Egypt, and the LORD brought an east wind upon the land all that day, and all that night; and when it was morning, [COLOR=#006600]the east wind brought the locusts.[/COLOR]

ISLAMIC TERRORISM...

Habakkuk 1:9 "They shall come all for violence: (Islamic terrorism) their faces shall sup up as the east wind, (Islamic form of worship) and they shall gather the captivity as the sand." (large oppressive religion/world domination).

Terrorism, their form of worship, and goal of world domination ALL IN ONE VERSE!

[COLOR=#006600]The east wind is always associated with evil and destruction. [/COLOR] [COLOR=#006600]Sup up[/COLOR] means to do so as a horde or an assembly. Islam is the only religion where it's followers "sup their face up to the east" even 5 times a day.

E. Swedenborg (1688-1772) said, "That wind, and especially the east wind, signifies nothing else than the dispersion of falsities and evils."

Listen my friend! One CANNOT study the Word of God intellectually! It must be done by the Spirit of the One who wrote this wonderful letter to you. He is your teacher, He is your councellor. He is your teacher. That wonderful computer between your ears is not capable of understanding the things of the Spirit.
The Holy spirit cannot enlighten the mind of someone who BELIEVES THEY ALREADY HAVE THE TRUTH. The Holy Spirit doesn't just reveal truth to us out of just asking for it. He expects us to put effort into discovering it. We have to use what intellect and wisdom we have for the Holy Spirit to guide us. We have to seek and work to find it.

I've had some people say, "I know I'm right because I have the Holy Spirit and he wouldn't lie to me."
 
Member
I found this a bit interesting from the article posted on reply 139...

[COLOR=#006600] There is also a story of Mohammed that has locusts falling into his hands bearing the inscription “We are the Army of the Great God.”[/COLOR]
 
Least amongst the Best
Staff Member
Greetings,

Neither are Rome, Catholicism, Europe, or the USA found in end-time prophecy.
what about Jerusalem?

[COLOR=#663300]And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.

So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then My mind was alienated from her, like as My mind was alienated from her sister.


Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.


For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.


Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.

Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;[/COLOR]Ezekiel 23:17-22

[Ezekiel 23:4 [COLOR=#663300]And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.[/COLOR]


Bless you ....><>
 
Member
Greetings,



what about Jerusalem?

[COLOR=#663300]And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.

So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then My mind was alienated from her, like as My mind was alienated from her sister.


Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.


For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.


Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.

Therefore, O Aholibah, thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will raise up thy lovers against thee, from whom thy mind is alienated, and I will bring them against thee on every side;[/COLOR]Ezekiel 23:17-22

[Ezekiel 23:4 [COLOR=#663300]And the names of them were Aholah the elder, and Aholibah her sister: and they were mine, and they bare sons and daughters. Thus were their names; Samaria is Aholah, and Jerusalem Aholibah.[/COLOR]


Bless you ....><>
Jerusalem YES. But how? I have to go a couple of places to explain.

Some people like John Hagee say the man of sin will be a homosexual Jew. He uses this verse which he completely mis-interprets...
ASV
"Neither shall he regard the gods of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall magnify himself above all."

Others who say the man of sin will be a Jew use this verse because of the Temple...

KJV
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

This is the way I believe 2 Thes. 2:4 should be understood.

The word used for 'God' is the SAME word used for a false god or goddess. The word used for 'temple' is the same word that’s used for a heathen temple or shrine. I also noticed from the interlinear that the KJV translators also dropped the word ‘the’ in “temple of (the) God.” AND! The word God/god is used four times in v.4. 'God' twice and 'god' twice.

The interlinear shows GOD capitalized twice and twice it is not. That's another major KJV blunder.

One more interesting note: In the Greek interlinear when the word god is NOT capitalized, it shows it like this...n_ Acc Sg m. (noun, accusative case, singular, masculine) That means when god isn't capitalized, verse 4 is better interpreted like this…

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called god, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the heathen temple (Dome of the Rock) OF THE god (Allah), shewing himself that he is God. (Or the Al'aqsa mosque which stands on the same site)

The word God from Strong's...

The word God in this verse is theos. The primary meaning of that word is of any god or goddess. It is also used to describe the one true God. The word Temple…. The word temple in 2 Thes. 2 is ‘naos’ Strong’s # 3485 and that word is the one used to imply a heathen temple. 1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, 2) any heathen temple or shrine.
_________________________________________________________________________________________

This word is also used in the later part of Acts to describe the temple that the idol stood in.

Jerusalem, lets go here...

Revelation 17:9-10 "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

Later in the chapter the harlot is used interchangeably with a city.

The "kings of the earth," isn't a reference to ALL the kings on the planet but the ten mentioned in Revelation 17:12.

And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings....
This is a unified Mid east Islamic Caliphate of sorts. The Dome of the Rock is at the geographically center of Jerusalem's seven MOUNTAINS. THIS IS THE ONLY PIECE OF GROUND GOD HAS CLAIMED AS HIS OWN IN THE BIBLE. SO WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

The harlot represents a large false religion, i.e. ISLAM, its jihadist sects, and worldwide terrorism. 'Sitteth' means [COLOR=#006600]"to occupy or have a fixed abode." [/COLOR] This indicates that Islam is the dominate religion that 'OCCUPIES' this 10/7 empire which is an Islamic Caliphate of sorts, headquartered and operated from the Dome of the Rock. Babylon the Great, AKA ISLAM must “sit on” or occupy seven mountains, (East Jerusalem) and I believe those mountains are the seven mountains that surround Jerusalem.

“As the mountains surround Jerusalem, so the Lord surrounds his people both now and forevermore,” (Psalm 125:2)

These mountains are Mount Zion (southwest, 2558 ft.), Mount Gareb (west, 2518 ft.), Mount Scopus (north, 2724 ft.) Mount of Olives (east, 2641 ft.) Mount of Offense (southeast, 2411 ft.) Mount of Evil Counsel (south, 2548 ft.) and at the center, Mount Moriah (the temple mount, 2556 ft.)

Some translations use the word HILL, but the more accurate translation is mountain. Rome does not sit on seven mountains! In fact the supposed '7 hills of Rome' are actually 8 when including Vatican hill. They and are so small that when viewed from a distance they're barely noticeable and appear as 'little nubs.' Some are only about 250 feet high and only 25 acres.

Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. [COLOR=#006600]Islam will cause East Jerusalem to become a harlot. [/COLOR]

The man of sin will come in Islam, and the Mid-East is ripe for him. According to 2 Thes. 2, he's waiting for an apostasy, and the Arab world is in apostasy as we speak. (apostasy has nothing to do with Christianity or the Church)

NIV
"Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

What holding the man of sin back?...AN APOSTASY!

"And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time."

Bottom line...

[COLOR=#336600]Muslim's want the Dome area complex, East Jerusalem, to be the headquarters of their worldwide Islamic Caliphate and that turns the city into a harlot.[/COLOR]
 
Least amongst the Best
Staff Member
greetings,

thank you for sharing that, Jim.

How about Jerusalem being a/the harlot?
We have from history the complete annihilation of the city and all that dwelt therein bar a handful.
Many fled to the hills. Many of them were also chased.

Let's get to what a harlot or one which commits whoredoms does...

any who steal or attempt to steal another's love. In the case of Adultery is is more than simply one man's love.

Putting that in the pot, we see that all who go about in perversion from truth to lure and win and get another man's love from him, especially in the case we are looking at, being the love a man has with the LORD, is a harlot.
Jerusalem did this.

You mention islam. Islam is not a person.
Jerusalem is not a person. Wind back to John's time and we read of the many who considered the Temple and all it was about to be theirs as lords over it and all who came (by their obligation?) to worship there.
While Jesus was walking amongst them (Sanhedrin perhaps?) they were doing everything to turn all away from Him and succeeded if you consider the cries... ."crucify Him!"


[COLOR=#663300]O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.[/COLOR] Matthew 23:37-38

[COLOR=#663300]And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.[/COLOR] Revelation 18:19

Revelation 11:8,
[COLOR=#663300]And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.[/COLOR]

a few thoughts,


Bless you ....><>
 
Member
Mathew 23 is about the AD 70 destruction of the temple, but Jesus doesn't call it a harlot. Other than Revelation 17, I don't think there's a NT verse implying Jerusalem is a harlot. Many of us say the harlot of Rev. 17 is Jerusalem. I know it's not Rome or the U.S.

I don't know why you said,
"Islam is not a man."
I don't know how that applies. Maybe I misunderstood.
The harlot is used interchangeably with a city in Rev. 17. What is said about Jerusalem being a the harlot in the OT doesn't always translate into the city being a harlot in NT prophecy, even though it seems that in this case it does, but in this case, Rev. 17, Babylon the Great is responsible for it.

Islam gave birth to Jihadism, and that's who commits the abominations of the earth. The man of sin encourages his followers to commit these abominations through jihad FROM this place, East Jerusalem, and that IN END-TIME PROPHECY is what turns East Jerusalem into a harlot.

That great city of Revelation 17 is Jerusalem. That great city of Revelation 18 is Mecca. That's a page or two of it's own.

I believe in Revelation 18 Mecca gets nuked, or burned anyway... and it starts in Revelation 17...

And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the *****, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

The harlot represents two things, ISLAM and she turns East Jerusalem into a harlot. It's possible that the harlot, i.e. Babylon the Great, is nuked. In other words, MECCA BURNS OR GETS NUKED. And she gets burned by the beast she occupies. The only way I can explain this quickly...

Both Rev. 13 and 17 are TWO separate Islamic Caliphates. One is the kind of the North of Daniel 11 revealed in Rev. 13's Dome of the Rock, possibly something to do with Iran, Turkey ??? It's an 10/7 Islamic coalition of nations of. The other is the king of the South, Daniel 11 and Rev.17, or the southern Caliphate, another 10/7 coalition of nations situated in and around the Arabian Peninsula. The king of the North destroys the king of the South, AND BURNS MECCA AS WELL.

THIS IS MY CURRENT UNDERSTANDING AND SUBJECT TO CHANGE.

Revelation 18....MECCA SAUDI ARABIA. (burned by the beast, probably Iran)

Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, (by buying her oil) shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,

Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! (ever see pictures of the inside of Mecca?)

And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!

And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

This cannot be the same city as east Jerusalem, (Rev. 17) because it continues to exist throughout the millennial reign.
_________________________________________________________________

There's a bunch to be explained in Rev. 18. It's not any U.S. city, and it's NOT Jerusalem, and it's not Rome. This great city is Mecca. This is what Rev. 18 says about Mecca...

And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, [COLOR=#006600]and souls of men.[/COLOR]

I don't claim to have this all figured out, and I can only show you what I THINK about this TODAY. I'm always willing to change my mind.
 
Least amongst the Best
Staff Member
Greetings,

thank you for taking the time to go through all that.
Interesting but I have reservations at this point. Exactly what, i am not sure. It could be that from what i understand the LORD is most upset with those who profane His Name (and His Son's Name) who have tasted and seen and had the witness amongst themselves since dot. The unjust steward, for example, was not an 'outsider' but part of the house. It appears (to me, thus far) that the wrath is against those who trash the table that they have been eating from and despise the invitation as honoured guests, being of the city, so to speak. The guardians who sell the children and get rich etc. Guardianship entrusted to them but they despise their master, not someone else's. Especially regarding the Temple and the Christ..... their promised Messiah.

----------------------------------------------------
Revelation 17:5-6
[COLOR=#663300]And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.[/COLOR]
can still be referring to Jerusalem. Much blood shed from there, directly and indirectly.
Jerusalem also had much finery and riches etc and made merchants very happy in the building and adorning thereof. But I am not pushing that against your narrative. An observation to consider, for me, anyway. How Jerusalem fits in to Revelations i can not say right now.

------------------------------------
I can see that people would mourn if they saw the oil going up in smoke but doubt many could give a stuff if any particular islam city went up.
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Your point about "This cannot be the same city as east Jerusalem, (Rev. 17) because it continues to exist throughout the millennial reign." is of note but without looking further I can not comment (if that makes sense?).
I am not sold on your take on islam but see how it can read into what we have in Revelation etc.
I shall chew it all over a bit and try to jump start my memory, if that helps?

I haven't made this a major topic for study, ever, so please forgive my inadequacies.

Regarding the bit about isalm not being a man, I was making the point that Jerusalem also is not a man but both are man dominated and ruled. Not sure if that helps but it was only a passing comment to try to explain my rather shallow narrative.

Grace and peace in Christ Jesus the Lord.


Bless you ....><>
 
Member
THE VERSE SHOULD READ...

[COLOR=#006600]ISLAM, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF JIHADIST AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH[/COLOR]
 
Member
Br. Bear,

If I understand you correctly, you're basically saying the demonic duo, false prophet and man of sin, are heretics or backslider, or false teachers that will come from within the church. That kind of thinking is what inspired me to start a website 14 years ago. That idea is pervasive in Christian thought today.

There are verses that talk about false teachers, but very few in end-time prophecy. In my view I see that as "self destructive demonization." Why would anybody want to convert to Christ knowing the demonic duo would emerge from within his church? The 'apostasy' is one of Christianity's biggest blunders and the only major religion that has the wrong definition of apostasy. It is not a defection from truth! It's not being a heretic or lukewarm.

This is the web definition of apostasy.
Apostasy - (noun)
1. The act of abandoning a party or cause.
2. The state of having rejected your religious beliefs, political party, cause or sports team in favor of opposing beliefs, causes or teams.
3. A defection, renunciation, disaffiliation, abandonment or revolt from a previous association.
4. (Islamic definition) Rejection in word or deed of one's former religion.
5. (Christian definition) To fall away from the truth.

It's a political or religious revolt just like what's taking place in the Arab Islamic world today.

If I'm a Hindu who abandoned Hinduism and converted to any other religion...or NO religion at all, I would be an apostate Hindu. If I'm a Republican who abandoned it for the Democratic party, I'm an apostate Republican.

I would go as far as saying that attributing the evils mentioned in 2 Thes. 2 about apostasy, or in any way attributing all the end-time evils upon the Church like the harlot, which many today call "the apostate church," is an outright perversion of God's Word. I'm not getting down on you over this. Just sayin'

The ONLY places we can go to understand 'apostasy' is 2Thes. 2 and Acts 21 because that's the only two places the word is used in the NT. People associate the word apostasia with similar English words like fall away, fallen away, draw away, etc. and believe they mean the same thing. Problem is they are different words that have nothing to do with the end-time apostasy.

This word apostasy is translated 'falling away,' and that's a poor translation of the word. It comes from a word meaning a 'divorce' or to defect and to abandon something. It has nothing to do with TRUTH.

Proof Apostasy has nothing to do with the church...

Notice the text below. From the word 'except' in verse 3c, to the end of verse 12, the church is not implied in any way. In fact the words "but we" in verse 13 prove that Christians (the church) is not part of the apostasy! The word 'but' is a conjunction that shows distinction and opposition to a previous statement. It opposes persons to persons or things previously mentioned or thought of. The distinction in this passage is between the followers of Christ as opposed to the man of sin and his followers. The church is not implied whatsoever.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3a Let no man deceive you by any means: 3b for that day shall not come, 3c except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.

What do the protesters in the Arab world want?
They want no borders, one flag, one currency, and a regional Islamic caliphate. Sound familiar?

Hasan A. Yahya, the Dean of Arab Writers in North America said, "This article calls for wider scope of protest and revolutions in the Arab countries, otherwise, these revolutions and protests are incomplete and misguided. In his opinion, the revolution may satisfy one country, it does not satisfy all Arabs who aspire for unity, one currency, one economy, and one flag that covers a land with no borders between."

Think about this...

"The secret power of lawlessness; the lawless one; whom the Lord Jesus will destroy; counterfeit signs, miracles, and wonders; every sort of evil that deceives those who "are perishing"; who refuse to love the truth and so be saved; and delight in wickedness; and God sends them powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie! "

Does the passage sound like the Church? Why would God send His own Christians powerful delusion? This passage is talking about Muslims not Christians.
 
Least amongst the Best
Staff Member
Greetings,

If I understand you correctly, you're basically saying the demonic duo, false prophet and man of sin, are heretics or backslider, or false teachers that will come from within the church. That kind of thinking is what inspired me to start a website 14 years ago. That idea is pervasive in Christian thought today.
no. I wasn't saying that. The thought didn't even enter my head, so it probably didn't pass down to the keyboard!

I do understand, however, how you might have thought that.
Try to remember that I am not someone else and whatever has been has been. Here at TalkJesus we can enjoy fellowship online as best we can and you might find people who simply share their thoughts and ideas without any labels.


What do the protesters in the Arab world want?
They want no borders, one flag, one currency, and a regional Islamic caliphate. Sound familiar?
if you take out the islamic bit, it sounds very much like all empires, that have been or would have been if they could have been. Even today, 2018, most rulers would probably be happy to rule the world if they could.

I suppose a question could be, as we are given rule over everything anyway, how are we doing it and to whose glory?

Judgement starts with the house of God. I am not totally sold that that is the Jews.
If you can imagine that the Lord will send fire next time, not rain, as promised (both) and His co-rulers as fellow heirs are scattered or spread across the world. He send His fire. Without going into that fire and what the result is, is it fair to say that the whole world will be engulfed and none shall escape?
Imagine, for a moment, if the fire was like an atomic bomb. Or any sort of bomb.
Have you ever seen footage of the shock waves that leave a path of destruction as they spread from the epicentre?
All His House is judged. His will remain unscathed, the faithful, as were Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego whose real names were Hanania, Mishael, and Azaria. (interesting names if you look into their meaning)
The same effect can be true of an earthquake at sea that sends out it's waves.
If it starts with the Christians and they are strategically placed around the world, what would happen with the non-christian unbelievers?
I wonder, if you or I had the detonator button, when would we push it?

I also tend to think that it is naive to think (of any of us - not directed at you, Jim) that the Lord will bypass those who use His Name, It also would not be just to any if He spared the just until after the unjust were annihilated, for lack of other words at present.

What do you think, Jim?


Bless you ....><>
 
Member
if you take out the islamic bit, it sounds very much like all empires, that have been or would have been if they could have been. Even today, 2018, most rulers would probably be happy to rule the world if they could.
Islam isn't a country or an empire. It's the most oppressive theocracy on earth esp. to women. It's not a country that encourages world domination in Islam, It's built into their ideology that goes way back. The only political governing body it has is Sharia law where your religion is your politics and your politics is your religion.... a theocracy.

In nearly every country Islam dominates, violations of Sharia are punnishable by death. And every Islamic country has it's own way of enforcing Sharia. Their laws differ greatly, but it's still a system of Islamic law. Some of the crimes punishable by death are, adultery, drug smuggling, apostasy, called 'riddah' in Islam, (Islam has to correct definition of apostasy which is the changing of your religion) Armed robbery or 'hadd',

3. Armed Robbery (Hirabah)
This hadd crime is described in the Qur'dn as:
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah And His messenger, and strive with might and main. For mischief through the land Is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: That is their disgrace In this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs In the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall."

Ta'zir crimes...
Ta'zir crimes punishable by death include sorcery, heresy, or spying by infidels. Even children don't escape this one for 'snitching'. You can still go to jail for listening to Western Muslim or reading Western books even in some of the more civil Islamic countries.
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Christians have been told that a world dictator with a one world government and a one world religion and false prophet is coming. NONE of that is true. What makes people think that every country or religion on earth would just relinquish their governance over to two people? How would they do it? I know what makes them think that. It's what they've been taught by people they trust.
I also tend to think that it is naive to think (of any of us - not directed at you, Jim) that the Lord will bypass those who use His Name, It also would not be just to any if He spared the just until after the unjust were annihilated, for lack of other words at present.
I'm not sure what you mean but I will say that very few of the judgments that God Almighty brings to mankind in the last days are imposed upon those of us who believe in Him. Tribulation will affect us all and Israel's disobedience does bring God's judgment upon them in the end.

Pre-tribbers have misinterpreted this verse....(God promises his own some level of protection)
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
 
Member
Correction...

You can still go to jail for listening to Western Music or reading Western books even in some of the more civil Islamic countries.
 
Least amongst the Best
Staff Member
Greetings and thanks Jim,

an interesting dialogue.

Am I as sold on my thoughts as you on yours?
(that is loving humour, my style, to you and with you, Jim)

only going on what you have written in the last reply, I can still see that the como's are still in the run, so to speak. I am not for a moment suggesting the other lot are not.

Perhaps I am bent on what I originally shared? Probably... until further notice!

Perhaps i have seen over the years the infiltration, that maybe also part of the propaganda machine we can succumb to, that has slowly turned up the heat like in a crab pot. We, the people have become slowly accustomed to the changes and except for the occasional burst of protest about certain issues, like abortion and gender plus gender equals who know's what, we have been slowly 'moulded' into sleepy poofs that can't do much except be a door mat for the one's playing the game with the people of the world? Not that it is a game!!

What we need to be careful of, is letting our imaginations override everything else.
It takes more than info to be able to withstand the cunningness/deceitfulness of the mind of man.


In the meantime, what should we be doing?


Bless you ....><>
 
Member
You present a lot of info here in a very intelligent manner. But I want to call your attention to something in the Rev 13 text:

[COLOR=Red]And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.[/COLOR] It gives three ways that someone might buy or sell (live in other words) 1. Take the mark (and the Bible does not say what the mark actually is!) OR2. Knows his name OR 3. Knows the number of his name. It then tells us the number of his name.

Unfortunately because of our modern number system, some contemporary translations say the number as: "666". There are many unbelievers and believers that think three sixes are the mark, or the number of the devil, or something like that. But what John wrote [in Greek] was the number six hundred, and then he wrote the number sixty (three score), and then he wrote the number six. Many ancient languages used letters for their numbering systems, including Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic (the three original languages of the Bible). If you wrote those numbers that John wrote in all three of those languages, you would be writing the name of a man, the SAME man's name in all three languages: Nero Caesar. That could have a few interpretations. The truth is I don't know which one would be right.

However my brother, I do anticipate these things may occur in my lifetime. I am prepared to stand before the man and in as public as I can possibly be, refuse the mark, and say that "I know that he is the antichrist, the beast, his name is Nero Caesar, and the number of his name is sixhundred, sixty, and six." There are two possible results to this: 1. I am killed. I'm okay with that. or 2. He will have no power to harm me or stop me from buying or selling (living). I base this idea on the ancient belief that to say the name (or it was called "have the name") of someone was to have power over them. It was for this reason that the Jews spelled Yaweh so that they could not pronounce it, and Jacob wrestled with The Angel of the Lord seeking blessing and to know His name. It's also why God renamed many people in the Bible after they became His.

As for Israel and Jerusalem's part in the fulfillment of the end times prophesies, I recommend an excellent book: Epicenterby Joel C. Rosenberg.
Well, I could go on, but not now. God bless you.
I thought the church was raptured before all the mark of the beast “stuff” happens!
 
Loyal
The church is split on when the rapture happens.

Matt 25:15; [COLOR=red] “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), [/COLOR]
Matt 25:16; [COLOR=red] then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:17; [COLOR=red] Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:18; [COLOR=red] Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:19; [COLOR=red] But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [/COLOR]
Matt 25:20; [COLOR=red] But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:21; [COLOR=red] For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:22; [COLOR=red] Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:23; [COLOR=red] Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:24; [COLOR=red] For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. [/COLOR]

Why would the "elect" need the days to be cut short during this great tribulation?
Why would the "elect" be deceived by false prophets during this time?

To make things worse... Jesus comes "after" this.

Matt 25:29; [COLOR=red] “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:30; [COLOR=red] And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:31; [COLOR=red] And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. [/COLOR]

It seems Jesus doesn't "gather" (rapture) the elect until "after" (verse 29) the tribulation. Also see Mark 13:14-27;

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”
Rev 7:14; I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
 
Member
The church is split on when the rapture happens.

Matt 25:15; [COLOR=red] “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), [/COLOR]
Matt 25:16; [COLOR=red] then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:17; [COLOR=red] Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:18; [COLOR=red] Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:19; [COLOR=red] But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [/COLOR]
Matt 25:20; [COLOR=red] But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:21; [COLOR=red] For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:22; [COLOR=red] Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:23; [COLOR=red] Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:24; [COLOR=red] For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. [/COLOR]

Why would the "elect" need the days to be cut short during this great tribulation?
Why would the "elect" be deceived by false prophets during this time?

To make things worse... Jesus comes "after" this.

Matt 25:29; [COLOR=red] “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:30; [COLOR=red] And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. [/COLOR]
Matt 25:31; [COLOR=red] And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. [/COLOR]

It seems Jesus doesn't "gather" (rapture) the elect until "after" (verse 29) the tribulation. Also see Mark 13:14-27;

Rev 7:13; Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?”
Rev 7:14; I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 “For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout with the voice of the Archangel, and with the Trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (raptured) together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And so shall we ever be with the Lord.” We will meet Jesus “ in the air” before the great tribulation. Also....it’s hard to have a discussion with someone who writes down the wrong scriptures! Matthew 25:29-31 in my Bible starts out like this....”For unto every one who has shall be given...etc! I’m not sure what scriptures you really meant! I found it! Matthew 24:15-31! These verses are talking about the second coming of Christ. And gathering the “elect” means Israel! The Jews will all be gathered and brought to Israel. Rev 7:14 is talking about those that came to Christ during the tribulation.
 
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Member
These 10 Bible prophecies from Jesus, Zechariah and the Bible's book of Revelation deal with the End Times, Apocalypse, or Last Days, when Jesus is to return and judge the living and the dead.

[COLOR=DarkOrange]1. Jerusalem would become an international problem[/COLOR]
Bible passage: Zechariah 12:1-5
Written: between 520 and 518 BC
To be fulfilled: End Times

In Zechariah 12, the prophet said that there would come a time when the surrounding nations would besiege Jerusalem and Judah (the area around Jerusalem), and that all the nations of the world would gather against Jerusalem, but that God ultimately would save the city and its people. This is widely regarded as an End Time prophecy to be fulfilled in the future.

Perhaps the most remarkable aspect of this prophecy is that it is predicated on Jerusalem being a city of critical interest to the rest of the world. And it just so happens that Jerusalem is the only city in the world that is of interest to the rest of the world.

For Jews, it is their ancient capital, founded by King David about 3000 years ago. Many Arab Moslems, however, believe that the city should be part of an independent state for Palestinian Arabs. The issue of who should control Jerusalem has been a cause of the Arab-Israeli wars during the past century.

And, the conflict between Arabs and Jews has been a primary reason as to why the international community has taken an interest in Jerusalem. In 1947, the United Nations General Assembly approved a plan to carve up the ancient land of Israel into a state for Jews and another for Arabs. This plan would have established Jerusalem as an international city to be governed by the United Nations.

This extremely unusual proposal, suggesting that a city be governed by the United Nations, simply shows the unique status that Jerusalem already has in the world: It is the only city in the world that is of interest to the rest of the world.

Given the history of the city, the volatile conflict between Israel and the surrounding Arab nations, and the unusual interest that the international community has shown in regards to Jerusalem, it seems clear that the groundwork for the future fulfillment of this prophecy is in place.

Zechariah 12:1-5
This is the word of the Lord concerning Israel. The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the spirit of man within him, declares: "I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness," declares the Lord. "I will keep a watchful eye over the house of Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. Then the leaders of Judah will say in their hearts, `The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.'

[COLOR=DarkOrange] 2. When Israel blooms again, the Kingdom of God will be near[/COLOR]
Bible passage: Luke 21:29-31
Recorded: about 30 AD
To be fulfilled: End Times

In Luke 21:29-31, Jesus said that when the fig tree blooms again, people will know that the End Times and Kingdom of God is near. Some Christian scholars believe that the fig tree represents the nation of Israel. This passage is sometimes interpreted to mean that the End Times would not begin until sometime after the nation of Israel regains sovereignty. When Jesus delivered this prophecy about 2000 years ago, Israel was ruled over by the Roman Empire. The people of Israel did not have sovereignty over their own land during that era. But, after centuries of exile, the Jews were able to return to Israel and reclaim sovereignty, in 1948.

Luke 21:29-31
He told them this parable:[COLOR=Red] "Look at the fig tree and all the trees. When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]3. The Messiah will appear after the Jews return to Israel[/COLOR]
Bible passage: Jeremiah 23:3-6
Written: sometime from 626 to about 586 BC
Fulfilled: end times

In Jeremiah 23:3-6, there is a prophecy that indicates when the Messiah is to appear in the land of Israel. Jeremiah said that it would be after the exiled people of Israel return to their homeland. From a Christian point of view, this is of special interest because Jesus is supposed to appear twice. And this coincides with the fact that the people of Israel have been expelled from their homeland twice, and that they are currently in the process of returning after the second expulsion.

More than 2500 years ago, the Assyrians and Babylonians forced the people of Israel out of their homeland. Many returned during the centuries that followed and then Jesus appeared, about 2000 years ago, and announced that he is the Messiah. Later, the people of Israel were again forced out of their land (by the Romans in 135 AD) and scattered to countries throughout the world.

But, during the past few centuries, millions of exiled Jews around the world have returned to their ancient homeland. And this is one of the reasons why Christians say that the world is being prepared for the return of Jesus Christ. Because, as Jeremiah had prophesied long ago, the Messiah is to appear after the people of Israel return to their land.

The phrase, in Jeremiah 23:5, "I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King," refers to the Messiah, and that he will be a king and a descendant of King David, who reigned over Israel about 3000 years ago. Christians believe that when Jesus returns, he will establish a kingdom of peace and righteousness.

Jeremiah 23:3-6
"I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number. I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing," declares the Lord. "The days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land. In his days Judah will be saved and Israel will live in safety. This is the name by which he will be called: The Lord Our Righteousness.

[COLOR=DarkOrange]4. The Gospel will be preached to the entire world[/COLOR]
Bible passage: Matthew 24:14
Recorded: about 30 AD
To be fulfilled: End Times

In Matthew 24:14, the Bible says that the Gospel (the New Testament books of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) will be preached throughout the world. The Bible also says that after this happens, the end times will come. The Bible has been preached throughout the world for a long time. But now, with the increasing worldwide availability of television and the Internet, there is greater potential for the Gospel to be preached to everyone, everywhere.

Matthew 24:14
[COLOR=Red] And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]5. The world would be able to simultaneously witness events[/COLOR]
Bible passage: Revelation 11:9-10
Written: sometime between 54 and 95 AD
To be fulfilled: End Times

In Revelation 11:9-10, the Bible gives a prophecy that has not yet been fulfilled, at least not in a literal sense. But, perhaps for the first time in history, it can be fulfilled. The prophecy says that people all over the world will be able to simultaneously witness a particular event (the death of two prophets). This of course would have been difficult before the popularization of television and the Internet. But it is now common for people worldwide to simultaneously witness events via television and the Internet.

Revelation 11:9-10
For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

[COLOR=DarkOrange]6. Zechariah foreshadowed modern warfare[/COLOR]
Bible passage: Zechariah 14:12
Written: between 520 and 518 BC
To be fulfilled: End Times

In Zechariah, chapter 14, the prophet says a time will come when nations gather to attack Jerusalem. In Zechariah 14:12, the prophet says the nations that attack Jerusalem will be struck with a "plague" that will cause their flesh to rot while they are still standing. This might be a fitting description for modern warfare if it were described by a person who lived 2500 years ago, as Zechariah did. Chemical weapons are capable of causing rapid deterioration of flesh. And a blast of heat from a nuclear weapon could have a similar affect. Some Bible scholars, however, believe that this plague could refer to a supernatural event from God to protect the Holy Land.

Zechariah 14:12
This is the plague with which the Lord will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths.

[COLOR=DarkOrange]7. Many people will go to Jerusalem to seek God's favor[/COLOR]
Bible passage: Zechariah 8:22
Written: between 520 and 518 BC
To be fulfilled: End Times

In Zechariah 8:22, the prophet said 2500 years ago that a time will come when many people go to Jerusalem to seek and honor God. This prophecy has been at least partially fulfilled already. The Jews recaptured Jerusalem during the Six Day War in 1967. Since then, people from around the world have toured Jerusalem to visit various sites that are important to the history of Judaism and Christianity. Jerusalem is also an important city to Moslems.

Zechariah 8:22
And many peoples and powerful nations will come to Jerusalem to seek the Lord Almighty and to entreat him."

[COLOR=DarkOrange]8. Book of Revelation envisioned an army of 200 million[/COLOR]
Bible passage: Revelation 9:16
Written: sometime between 54 and 95 AD
To be fulfilled: End Times

In Revelation 9:16, the Bible says that an army of 200 million will one day march toward Israel. Of course, this prophecy hasn't been fulfilled yet, at least not literally. But, as the world's population rises above 6 billion, it is increasingly possible for a coalition of countries to amass an army of 200 million, and this would have been have been unthinkable even 100 years ago.

Revelation 9:16
The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number.

[COLOR=DarkOrange]9. The troops would cross the Euphrates[/COLOR]
Bible passage: Revelation 16:12
Written: sometime between 54 and 95 AD
To be fulfilled: End Times

In Revelation 16:12, the Bible says there will come a time when the Euphrates River becomes dry so that an army can cross it and march into Israel. When the book of Revelation was written 1900 years ago, it would have taken a great natural disaster, or a great amount of labor to divert the flow of the Euphrates so that an army could cross it. (In 539 BC, Cyrus and his army diverted the flow so that his troops could march across the riverbed and conquer Babylon). But, today, there are a series of dams that would make it much easier to divert the flow of the powerful river.

Revelation 16:12
The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East.

[COLOR=DarkOrange]10. People would be forced to receive the mark of the beast[/COLOR]
Bible passage: Revelation 13:16-18
Written: sometime between 54 and 95 AD
To be fulfilled: End Times

In Revelation 13:16-18, the Bible says that there would come a time when a powerful leader would force people to receive a "mark" on or in their right hand or forehead, and that no one would be able to buy or sell unless they had that mark. When the book of Revelation was written about 1900 years ago, it would have been nearly impossible for a world leader to force everyone to receive such a mark. But, today, with modern technology, it would be much easier. Today, for example, it would be possible to implant under a person's skin a small microchip that could be used like a credit card.

Revelation 13:16-18
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. (KJV).
Thanks for sharing your research. Nice summary. What are you implying by including ten prophesies, none of which Jesus fulfilled?
 
Loyal
Also....it’s hard to have a discussion with someone who writes down the wrong scriptures!
I’m not sure what scriptures you really meant! I found it!
Yes, you are correct, that should have been Matt 24, not Matt 25. I apologize, I didn't do that intentionally.
 

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