Beetow said:

Were my home completely free and clear of any and all obligations related to it, I
would keep the whole sale price-- minus real estate fees --were I to sell it.

However, I owe a balance on the credit line with our bank that's collateralized by
my home's equity value. So; were I to sell my home, the line of credit would be
paid off out of the sale before I would get any of it to use towards the purchase of
another home. In other words: my obligation to the bank has the priority.

With that thought in mind; consider a Jewish man who has undergone circumcision
the eighth day as required, and successfully completed Bar Mitzvah. From that
point on he is obligated to comply with the covenant that Moses' people agreed
upon with God on oath per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Now supposing that same Jewish man begins to have second thoughts about
Judaism and thinks maybe he would like to try something else. Well; he is not at
liberty to just up and walk away from the covenant; no, not when he is very likely
indebted to it via one or more of the curses listed at Lev 26:14-39, Deut 27:15-26,
and Deut 28:15-68. Those curses, just like my equity line, have to be fulfilled first
before he can even surmise himself free to transfer his affections to another
religion.

But that's not all. Even if that Jewish man managed to somehow settle accounts
with all his accrued curses, he still can't walk away from the covenant because his
association with it isn't something that can be canceled like membership in a
trade union or a civic club. No, membership in the covenant is permanent, i.e. it's
for life. (Deut 29:9-21)

UPDATE: 207 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 12,859,668 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

Click to expand...

Membership in the covenant is permanent? What do think it means when the Bible says "[God] commandeth all men every where to repent:” Acts 17:30.

@Beetow -- so it Sounds like you're saying that a person is Stuck in whatever religious up-bringing he's decided on. If he's Jewish he's stuck being Jewish?! If a person is Born a Jew then he Is a Jew -- but a Jewish person can Be of any religious belief system he Wants to be. There Are those who are not Jews but choose to Be "Jewish" in their belief system.

The only 'thing' I am permenently is Swedish/ German heritage. I can practice any religious belief system I want to.

God's plan for salvation is meant for people Anywhere / Everywhere. Just as "JerryfromMass" has shared in the Acts 17:30 passage.

And we Also have John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever believeth on Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

Look at Genesis 15:6 "And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness." The Lord had promised Abram a son in his old age. He believed the promise that the Lord God had made to him. Isaac Was born to Abram and Sarah in their old age. And the Lord Also led them up on a hill for sacrifice as usual. But this time he had Isaac go up with him. He was willing to give Isaac back to the Lord -- he trusted the Lord God with his son, very literally. God spared him and provided a ram caught in some thistles to sacrifice instead.

Getting back to the subject -- no person is 'stuck' in a belief system. There are Messianic Jews and there are Muslims who accept Christ as their personal Savior. Anyone from any belief system can come to Christ as their Savior. God would that All would come to a saving knowledge of salvation but Also knows who will and who won't. He does not send or prevent anyone from coming to salvation. But He Does Know. Omniscience.

Sue D. said:

@Beetow -- so it Sounds like you're saying that a person is Stuck in whatever religious up-bringing he's decided on. If he's Jewish he's stuck being Jewish?! If a person is Born a Jew then he Is a Jew -- but a Jewish person can Be of any religious belief system he Wants to be. There Are those who are not Jews but choose to Be "Jewish" in their belief system.

The only 'thing' I am permenently is Swedish/ German heritage. I can practice any religious belief system I want to.

God's plan for salvation is meant for people Anywhere / Everywhere. Just as "JerryfromMass" has shared in the Acts 17:30 passage.

And we Also have John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that who so ever believeth on Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

Look at Genesis 15:6 "And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness." The Lord had promised Abram a son in his old age. He believed the promise that the Lord God had made to him. Isaac Was born to Abram and Sarah in their old age. And the Lord Also led them up on a hill for sacrifice as usual. But this time he had Isaac go up with him. He was willing to give Isaac back to the Lord -- he trusted the Lord God with his son, very literally. God spared him and provided a ram caught in some thistles to sacrifice instead.

Getting back to the subject -- no person is 'stuck' in a belief system. There are Messianic Jews and there are Muslims who accept Christ as their personal Savior. Anyone from any belief system can come to Christ as their Savior. God would that All would come to a saving knowledge of salvation but Also knows who will and who won't. He does not send or prevent anyone from coming to salvation. But He Does Know. Omniscience.

Click to expand...

Amen. Mycket trevligt sagt syster.

@JerryfromMass -- after the Amen -- what were you trying to type? Looks like you hit the wrong keys. (or typing in tongues ?)

Sue D. said:

@JerryfromMass -- after the Amen -- what were you trying to type? Looks like you hit the wrong keys. (or typing in tongues ?)

Click to expand...

It's Swede for "Very nicely said sister. Amen."

Continued from post No.420

So then, before a Jewish man can sever his commitment to the covenant that
Moses' people agreed upon with God on oath per Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers,
and Deuteronomy; he must first meet two prerequisites.

1» Pay his debts to the covenant, i.e. fulfill any and all curses that he accrued in
accord with Lev 26:14-39, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:15-68.

2» Undergo death.

However: in this hypothetical case; the man seeking termination is wanting to take
up a new religion. How's he to that when he's dead, i.e. unless he somehow
survives both the death and the curses?

Well; I can't speak for other religions, but if our hypothetical Jewish man is
considering Christianity, then he's in luck because its lord and master has a solution
for problems exactly like his.

• Gal 4:4-5 . .When the right time came, God sent His son-- born of a woman,
subject to the law. God sent him to buy freedom for us who were slaves to the law,
so that He could adopt us as His very own children.

In a nutshell; Christ's crucifixion meets both prerequisites: it simultaneously
redeems the man's curses, and it puts him down. How so? Well; in some
mysterious way that I've yet to fully understand; Christianity is a lethal religion,
viz: Christ's followers are reckoned joined with him during his death on the cross.

• Rom 6:3-11 . . Don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus
were baptized into his death? . . For we know that our old self was crucified with
him

• Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

• Col 3:2-3 . . Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For
you are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

FAQ: What's to be done about the man's new curses?

A: The Christian religion doesn't slam Christ's followers with curses for non
compliance with God's commandments.

• 2Cor 5:19 . . God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself; not counting
their trespasses against them.

The Greek word translated "counting" is logizomai (log-id'-zom-ahee) which means
to take an inventory; i.e. an indictment.

• John 5:24 . . I assure you: those who listen to my message, and believe in God
who sent me, have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but
they have already passed from death into life.

UPDATE: 208 days have elapsed since my first comment. If the figures in post No.5
are in the ball park, then something like 12,921,792 new arrivals have checked into
the fiery sector of Hades since Oct 08, 2020.
_

@Beetow -- in the hypothetical -- a person can set up any set of circumstances he wants and adjust as wanted. Why not just take real-life situations.

Since I'm not Jewish -- lots of these things don't apply to me and I've never really considered them. I've read the Old Testament a couple of times. So I'm familiar With.

Back in Biblical times -- the Old Testament -- the Children of Israel were to be an example to other people groups around them. Set apart from them.

The Jewish people rejected Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah.

Re: Leviticus 26 -- the chapter caption in my NKJ is "the rewards of true worship" vs 1 You shall not make idols for yourselves' neither carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves; nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it; for I am the Lord your God." Then the passage continues to share all the benefits Of -- there are a Lot of them listed in the following verses. vs 13 " I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that you should not be their slaves. I have broken the bands of your yoke and made you walk upright."

vs 14 " but it you do Not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments, and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgements, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant, vs 16 " I also will do this to you:

And looking at the Deuteronomy passage ---- all of a sudden I'm realizing that you've changed course. Adjusting your hypothetical?!

Previously -- not being stuck in a belief system that isn't Biblical. and Now it's about the children of Israel following God's guidance with all those benefits. They are His chosen people. He's led them out of 400 yrs of bondage / slavery in Egypt.

Of course they'd be wanting to obey / follow Him. But they Did tend to be a rebellious people. Same as we are today. We tend to be a rebellious people. We want to do things our own way and Still benefit from God's promises. Doesn't work that way. "We" either follow God / His ways OR end up in eternal suffering. And it's our personal decision.

Christianity / salvation came to the Jews 1st -- they - as a people group Rejected Him. The Gentiles (the rest of us) were then included. Because of the cross -- Everyone became included.

Christianity is a Lethal religion???!!! If 'you' want a Lethal belief system -- just try for Islam.

"Christ's followers are reckoned joined with Him during His death on the cross?" Well -- we Do believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross - In our place -- was buried and rose again bodily on the 3rd day.

Galations 2:20 -- let's read the entire verse "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me, and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me."

As we can see -- the Entire verse Does make a difference.

FAQ -- What has to be done for man's new curses? Maybe the question Should be. How do we live our new life in Christ.

It's relationship that God wants with us -- made possible through the death, burial and bodily resurrection Of Jesus Christ. He wants to be our Heavenly Father. Taking everything to Him in prayer.

John 5:24 " Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death into life."

Immediately upon a person's salvation -- the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the person -- gives him / her new desires for God's Word -- gives us inner peace never having had previously. Nothing of God is burdensome for a born again believer.
God Does have a good plan for each of our lives. He has Good Works for us to do. But not to sustain our salvation but to serve Him. People Should be seeing Christ in us. Be attracted to Him.

How many people have we shared the Gospel with?

Sue D. said:

Immediately upon a person's salvation -- the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the person

Click to expand...

NO salvation comes after the baptism of the Holy Spirit for only then do you become a son or daughter of God the Father and are in Christ.

Some of you people are hilarious. You insist that Christians should go about spreading the gospel yet can't even agree among yourselves its details.

• Gen 13:7 . . And there was quarreling between the herdsmen of Abram's cattle and those of Lot's cattle. The Canaanites and Perizzites were then dwelling in the land.

How do you suppose that squabbling looked to the pagans? When God's people can't agree, outsiders become disgusted with them and they sure won't be influenced for God in a good way when there's fighting amongst themselves like that.

Years ago, when I was a young welder just starting out on my own, I rented a small room in a daylight basement from a man who was the senior pastor of a medium sized church in the Portland Oregon area. He and his wife radiated the luster of polished spirituality whenever I spoke with them out in the yard, but in my location under the floor of the house, I could overhear their quarrels upstairs behind closed doors. Was I favorably inclined to take up their religion and/or attend their church? No.
_

The only perfect Christian and the only perfect congregation are those that are glorified and standing before the only perfect pastor - the glorified Lord Jesus.

Downunder said:

NO salvation comes after the baptism of the Holy Spirit for only then do you become a son or daughter of God the Father and are in Christ.

Click to expand...

There are things that place at the same time at the point Of salvation. At the time that a person believes in their heart and confesses with their mouth the Lord Jesus -- the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the person / baptism of the Holy Spirit. The person becomes a new creature in Christ. Becomes a son or daughter of God. All of those things are taking place.

Beetow said:

Some of you people are hilarious. You insist that Christians should go about spreading the gospel yet can't even agree among yourselves its details.

• Gen 13:7 . . And there was quarreling between the herdsmen of Abram's cattle and those of Lot's cattle. The Canaanites and Perizzites were then dwelling in the land.

How do you suppose that squabbling looked to the pagans? When God's people can't agree, outsiders become disgusted with them and they sure won't be influenced for God in a good way when there's fighting amongst themselves like that.

Years ago, when I was a young welder just starting out on my own, I rented a small room in a daylight basement from a man who was the senior pastor of a medium sized church in the Portland Oregon area. He and his wife radiated the luster of polished spirituality whenever I spoke with them out in the yard, but in my location under the floor of the house, I could overhear their quarrels upstairs behind closed doors. Was I favorably inclined to take up their religion and/or attend their church? No.
_

Click to expand...

What goes on behind closed is no one's business but the people who Are behind those closed doors. That pastor and his wife are human beings just like everyone else. That should in no way influence your being part of their congregation -- unless he's teaching false doctrine.

Maybe you Could have chosen to Pray for them in their ministry.

Sue D. said:

the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the person / baptism of the Holy Spirit. The person becomes a new creature in Christ. Becomes a son or daughter of God. All of those things are taking place.

Click to expand...

NO - incorrect - not taught in scripture.

@Downunder -- then the question appears to be 'what is the baptism of the Holy Spirit?" comparing to baptism by immersion -- a person's body is totally submerged in the water. So wouldn't baptism of the Holy Spirit be the Holy Spirit totally immersing Himself in us? The soul of the person? A person believes in their heart -- the same 'heart' that the Holy Spirit is immersed into - comes to indwell -- upon their salvation. That's where the inner peace Is.

JerryfromMass said:

Membership in the covenant is permanent? What do think it means when the Bible says "[God] commandeth all men every where to repent:” Acts 17:30.

Click to expand...

God commandeth all men to repent... But all men will not repent!

Therefore all men will not be saved.

John 3:18-21 NKJV
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Brother-Paul said:

God commandeth all men to repent... But all men will not repent!

Therefore all men will not be saved.

John 3:18-21 NKJV
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Click to expand...

True.

I don't think anyone has said that 'all men will be saved' -- the comment started out as a person can't change belief systems. Which they Can -- thus Acts 17:30

And God is the Only One who know who will or who won't be saved.

Salvation was for the Jews 1st and then extended to the Greek / everyone else.

John 14:6 says that 'I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father, but by Me" Jesus Christ speaking.

Sue D. said:

And God is the Only One who know who will or who won't be saved.

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Does the Bible say this, or is this just something you've been told over and over again?

@B-A-C -- It's God's omniscience -- having all knowledge. // omnipresence and omnipotence -- God's attributes.

Sue D. said:

I don't think anyone has said that 'all men will be saved' -- the comment started out as a person can't change belief systems. Which they Can -- thus Acts 17:30

And God is the Only One who know who will or who won't be saved.

Salvation was for the Jews 1st and then extended to the Greek / everyone else.

John 14:6 says that 'I am the way the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father, but by Me" Jesus Christ speaking.

Click to expand...

We class belief systems as religions, but in truth there are only two belief systems.
- True Christianity
- The worlds belief system (which comes in many disguises)

No one can come to the father, except through Jesus.

Therefore it doesn't matter if you are atheist, agnostic, any religion by name, or Christian by name and not born again, you belong to the world.

Two belief systems, one is saved, the rest are not.