Usually when someone tells me its what scripture ' teaches ' it's always at the expense of what it SAYS .
many or few?
- Thread starter B-A-C
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What is there to be buying into regarding Lordship salvation. Isn't that at least part of what salvation Is? That Jesus Christ is Supposed to Be the 'Lord' of your life upon salvation? A Christ-like life -- following His example -- who Else are we to be following? certainly not ourselves. "In all our ways acknowledge Him and He will direct our path" -- isn't that what Lordship salvation Is?
Aren't they the same thing?
Maybe we don't always Like what Scripture says / teaches.
No when a verse literally SAYS something it is different to what we say it teaches .
@Free gift -- can you give me an example of what you mean?! Thank you.
B-A-C
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There are some people who believe in a pre-trib rapture.
However there are two verses that say it will happen "after" the tribulation, and none that say "before" the tribulation.
Yet people still believe it, even though the Bible doesn't say it anywhere.
Acts 2.38 .kjv
Eph 4.30 kjv
Rom 5
2 cor 5.19
I believe what they SAY but boy do some change what it says in favour of what they think they teach .
Could you quote them please ?
Brother-Paul
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Greeting brother,
Can you confirm the two verses you are referring to please
5 times in John's Gospel we read... I shall raise him ON THE LAST DAY.
John 6:39
And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that everyone who He gave me - I shall lose none of him, but rather, I shall raise him on the last day
John 6:40
And this is the will of Him who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him has eternal life, and I shall raise him on the last day
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I shall raise him on the last day
John 6:54
He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I shall raise him on the last day.
John 11:24
Martha said to him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.”
As you say... yet people still believe pre-trib!
B-A-C
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Matt 24:29; "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Matt 24:30; Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matt 24:31; And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Mark 13:24; "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
Mark 13:25; the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
Mark 13:26; Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mark 13:27; And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.
B-A-C
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So what is the "last day".
Multiple conjecture here.
Is is possible when the new heavens and new Earth appear, there will be no more night... so it's just one long continuous eternal day?
Does it simply mean the last day of the current age?
Is it literally the "last day" and everything (including God) simply ceases to exist?
In any case, none of that changes what you posted.
Brother-Paul
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One like no other brother, it is the omega day.
Multiple conjecture here.
Is is possible when the new heavens and new Earth appear, there will be no more night... so it's just one long continuous eternal day?
Does it simply mean the last day of the current age?
Is it literally the "last day" and everything (including God) simply ceases to exist?
In any case, none of that changes what you posted.
But will things cease to exist brother, we are told all things will be made new. So does that appear to mean the last day of the current age, I think so.
Acts 2:19-20
19 I will show wonders in heaven above
And signs in the earth beneath:
Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness,
And the moon into blood,
Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the Lord.
The Day of the Lord, according to the Old Testament, is a time of God’s judgment and a time of God’s dealing with the world in its sin.
The Day of the Lord is also a time of deliverance and blessing for Israel.
The Day of the Lord, is in the Bible over twenty times, and refers to a day sometime in the future at an unknown time, when the people of the earth will meet God's judgment.
For those who are in opposition to Him, who deny any need for His mercy and grace, that day will be a terrible day of battle ( Isaiah 2:12; Isaiah 13:6; Ezekiel 30:3; Revelation 16:14 ), which they are doomed to lose.
The Day of the Lord has to be Judgement Day nothing to do with the rapture.
Shalom
I guess maybe it depends on What a person is trying To teach.
And keeping a passage in context -- what the verses before and after are saying. And other passages in the Bible.
And, yes, there is the tendency to 'see' Scriptures in the context of how it was taught by any particular denomination when a person was growing up. Reading the Bible through on your own is important, I was brought up in a Bible-teaching church. But I'd never read it through on my own. When I Did, I could see where various groups got their ideas From. They would land in a certain area of Scripture and Stay there. When a person Continues reading, he / she gets a more complete concept.
And there Are a couple of passages that make it Sound like baptism Is part of salvation for instance. Yet, we read about the thief on the cross who believed but had no chance For baptism. Jesus Christ , Himself, said that that very day, He would be in Paradise with Him. Jesus Christ - after He died -- went to Paradise and took back up with Him everyone who was there waiting for the cross to take place. Obviously the repentant thief was in eternity with Christ without the benefit of baptism by immersion.
And we also have passages -- Romans 10:9-10 -- belief in your heart and confession by mouth -- to be saved. As well as 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 -- to be saved...... neither of these passages include baptism by immersion 'to be saved'.
Baptism by immersion -- there is no other kind Of baptism -- Is important -- it's usually an inner desire on the part of the believer -- and churches encourage it -- a witness to others in a public way as to what has already taken place in the person's heart.
As for the pre-trib rapture - - That has been on a 'hot plate' it seems like 'forever'. 1 Thess. 5:9 "For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." Which goes along with the fact that the Jewish people as a group refused to recognize Jesus Christ as their Promised Messiah. As a result, salvation was extended to the Gentiles ( the rest of the world). And at some point in the future -- the Jewish people Will be given another chance To accept Jesus Christ which will be during the coming 7 yr of tribulation as per Daniel 9 : 24 - 27 vs 27 -- it makes More sense that Jesus Christ will rapture the Church up and out while God is dealing with the non-believing Jewish people. Which is Also where Rev. 7 comes into the picture. The 144,000 Jews from the 12 tribes are sealed for safety while enduring the tribulation while evangelizing the Jews. And, yes, This subject has been talked about numerous times on Forum.
So - it's true that no two verses say one way or the other about the timing. But putting lots of Scriptures Together we Do get a 'picture'.
Actually -- this subject has rarely come up in church sermons. At least not that I recall while growing up and definitely not until recently except for here on Forum. I'd shared just the other day with another Forum person , an article I'd found while going through paper work in prep for moving. "Four Views of End Times Prophesy" www.matthewmcgee.org -- it's 7 pages.
Pastors I've been familiar with don't usually concern themselves with that subject. It's more about salvation / practical Christian living / Biblical ethics / morality. And pastors preach / teach through Books & cross-references to get a more balanced grasp of Bible.
I kind of suspect that everyone will be very busy living life the best we can and 'it' will happen -- all of a sudden -- in that twinkling of an eye. And, yes there Are signs to be aware of. But, in the Meantime -- are we sharing the Gospel unto salvation with whomever is willing to Listen? And how are We living each day.
So -- now -- What about "Lordship salvation"?!
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What is with the thief on the cross?? You cannot created doctrine out of one stand alone verse.
1> this is before the gospel age, before the commencement of the Christian church at Pentecost and certainly before Acts 2.38 comes into effect as the way of salvation.
2> Jesus did not go to heaven after he died. His spirit went to the Underworld.
Ephesians 4:9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?
3> Jesus did not promise to take the thief to heaven on that day with him - rather he promised that he would go to Eden (a future promise of salvation when God's kingdom is restored).
Luke 23:43
(LITV) And Jesus said to him Truly I say to you Today you will be with Me in Paradise.
(YLT) and Jesus said to him 'Verily I say to thee To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'
Paradise = G3857 παράδεισος paradeisos
Of Oriental origin (compare [H6508-a park]); a park, that is, (specifically) an Eden (place of future happiness, “paradise”): - paradise.
nothing about Heaven above here.
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1Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,
3:19 in which he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison,
3:20 because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.
The repentant thief is an example of a born again believer who did not have a chance To be baptised.
When Jesus Christ died -- He went to Abraham's bosom -- the part called Paradise -- where the believers from the Old Testament were waiting For the cross to happen. So -- when it Did take place -- Jesus Christ -- His physical body was laid in the tomb -- but He went to Abraham's bosom and took back with Himself when He rose again.
You're equating the garden of Eden with Paradise -- well -- God Did create the garden of Eden To be an eternal Paradise. We're the one's who messed that up.
Today = Today or To day. Rather than tomorrow or yesterday.
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Now this gives ammunition to @Free gift who argues that people read into scripture what they want from doctrine. Albeit he does the same.
Your answer is highly fanciful and speculative and simply not supported directly by scripture.
Scripture teaches us that Jesus spent 3 nights and 3 days in the belly of the Earth - the Underworld where he preached the gospel to spirits.
Give me scripture that openly teaches us that Jesus went to Abraham's Bosom.
Scripture teaches us that after His resurrection He asked the women not to touch him as He had not ascended as yet.
