Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[Brightfame52]

@Brightfame52

The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher

Thats what you need to be concerned with

 

[Brightfame52]

To be Justified by Faith,

Thats is when a Justified person comes into a spiritual apprehension/knowledge and enjoyment of the Justification and reconciliation which Christ has wrought for us to God, so by Faith we come to know Spiritually that God is our God, and we are in His favor . Our Faith didn't cause that, but reveals and receives that. 40

 

[KingJ]

To be Justified by Faith,

Thats is when a Justified person comes into a spiritual apprehension/knowledge and enjoyment of the Justification and reconciliation which Christ has wrought for us to God, so by Faith we come to know Spiritually that God is our God, and we are in His favor . Our Faith didn't cause that, but reveals and receives that. 40

You've simply redefined "justified by faith."

The Bible never says justification by faith means becoming aware of a justification that already existed. That's your theological definition, not the biblical one. (The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher)

Romans 5:1 doesn't say, "Therefore, realizing we were already justified..." It says, "Therefore being justified by faith..."

Likewise, Acts 13:39 says, "By him all that believe are justified," not "By him all that believe discover they were already justified."

You're asking me to accept your definition first, then read it back into every passage on justification. Can you provide one verse that defines "justified by faith" as merely becoming aware of a justification that already existed?

 

[KingJ]

Yes it does, I utilized the scripture, i cant help it if you cant receive it.

No, it doesn't.

Quoting Scripture does not automatically prove your interpretation of Scripture. Every false teacher quotes Scripture. The question is whether the passage actually teaches what you claim.

I've repeatedly asked you for one verse that says a person is justified before believing. Instead, you keep quoting passages about election, promise, and heirship, then concluding they teach justification before faith.

That's an inference, not an explicit statement. (The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher)

If your doctrine is biblical, then there should be at least one passage that plainly says people are justified before they believe. Can you produce one?

 

[Brightfame52]

We receive Justification by Faith when Gods sentence of Justification He has for us because of the blood of Christ shed for us, when that sentence terminates in our sanctified hearts and minds, which persuades us to believe in Jesus Christ. So we receive Justification by the effectual persuasion of our minds and hearts to believe in Jesus for what He has already accomplished. Read what Paul says here 1 Thess 1:5

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

The word assurance is the greek word plērophoria:

1. full assurance, most certain confidence,
   • to be persuaded, persuaded, fully convinced or assured

So to be Justified by Faith is when we have been persuaded that God Justifed us on the basis of Christs blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him 40

 

[KingJ]

We receive Justification by Faith when Gods sentence of Justification He has for us because of the blood of Christ shed for us, when that sentence terminates in our sanctified hearts and minds, which persuades us to believe in Jesus Christ. So we receive Justification by the effectual persuasion of our minds and hearts to believe in Jesus for what He has already accomplished. Read what Paul says here 1 Thess 1:5

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

The word assurance is the greek word plērophoria:

1. full assurance, most certain confidence,
   • to be persuaded, persuaded, fully convinced or assured

So to be Justified by Faith is when we have been persuaded that God Justifed us on the basis of Christs blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him 40

BF, you're still assuming the very thing you're trying to prove.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 says the gospel came in power, in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance. It says nothing about people already being justified before they believed.

Likewise, Romans 5:9 says we are justified by Christ's blood. Amen. But the question is not what grounds our justification. The question is when we are justified.

Romans 5:1 says, "Therefore being justified by faith..." Acts 13:39 says, "by him all that believe are justified." Neither passage says faith is merely discovering a justification that already existed.

You keep defining "justified by faith" as becoming persuaded that you were already justified. Can you provide a verse that actually defines it that way?

Because so far you've shown that Christ's blood is the basis of justification and that believers can have assurance. Neither of those proves that people were justified before they believed.

The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher

 

[Brightfame52]

BF, you're still assuming the very thing you're trying to prove.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 says the gospel came in power, in the Holy Spirit, and in much assurance. It says nothing about people already being justified before they believed.

Likewise, Romans 5:9 says we are justified by Christ's blood. Amen. But the question is not what grounds our justification. The question is when we are justified.

Romans 5:1 says, "Therefore being justified by faith..." Acts 13:39 says, "by him all that believe are justified." Neither passage says faith is merely discovering a justification that already existed.

You keep defining "justified by faith" as becoming persuaded that you were already justified. Can you provide a verse that actually defines it that way?

Because so far you've shown that Christ's blood is the basis of justification and that believers can have assurance. Neither of those proves that people were justified before they believed.

The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher

Ive been over all that with you already.

 

[Brightfame52]

Justification before God is before Faith/Believing because non imputation of sin is before Faith/Believing. 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Now how does this equate to Justification ? Because Non imputation of sin is equivalent to imputation of righteousness.

How so ? Paul in Rom 4:6 borrowed from David back in Ps 32 and Paul wrote

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Because David wrote Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Now here is Davids version Ps 32:1-2

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Notice David says nothing about " God imputeth righteousness without works" However the Holy Spirit interpret what David means through Paul, that the non imputing of sin equates to the imputation of righteousness without works.

So God was in Christ performing the non imputation of sin for a world of people, before they believed. Hence they were Justified by Christs Righteousness before they believed. 40

 

[KingJ]

Justification before God is before Faith/Believing because non imputation of sin is before Faith/Believing. 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Now how does this equate to Justification ? Because Non imputation of sin is equivalent to imputation of righteousness.

How so ? Paul in Rom 4:6 borrowed from David back in Ps 32 and Paul wrote

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Because David wrote Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Now here is Davids version Ps 32:1-2

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.

2 Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Notice David says nothing about " God imputeth righteousness without works" However the Holy Spirit interpret what David means through Paul, that the non imputing of sin equates to the imputation of righteousness without works.

So God was in Christ performing the non imputation of sin for a world of people, before they believed. Hence they were Justified by Christs Righteousness before they believed. 40

Once again, you've smuggled your conclusion into the passage.

Yes, Romans 4 equates the non-imputation of sin with the imputation of righteousness. I agree.

What it does not say is that either occurred before faith.

In fact, Paul's entire argument in Romans 3–5 is that this righteousness is received through faith (Romans 3:22, 3:28, 4:5, 5:1).

You keep quoting verses that explain what justification is, then inserting when it happened without the passage ever saying so.

2 Corinthians 5:19 also doesn't say the world was already justified before believing. Paul immediately follows it by pleading, "Be ye reconciled to God" (v. 20). If everyone he had in mind was already legally justified, that appeal would make no sense.

-------------------

Calvinism portrays God as monstrously evil because it teaches that He favours a select few while withholding saving grace from the rest. Scripture is crystal clear that God is no respecter of persons.

Deut 4:2, Deut 13:1–5, Deut 18:20–22, Josh 1:7, Prov 30:5–6, Isa 8:20, Jer 23:16, Jer 23:25–32, Ezek 13:1–16, Matt 7:15–20, Matt 15:9, Matt 24:11, Matt 24:24, Mark 7:7–13, Acts 20:28–31, Rom 16:17–18, 2 Cor 2:17, 2 Cor 4:2, 2 Cor 11:13–15, Gal 1:6–9, Eph 4:14, Phil 3:2, Col 2:8, 1 Tim 1:3–7, 1 Tim 4:1–3, 1 Tim 6:3–5, 2 Tim 2:15–18, 2 Tim 3:13–17, 2 Tim 4:2–4, Titus 1:9–16, Heb 13:9, James 3:1, 2 Pet 2:1–3, 2 Pet 2:12–22, 1 John 2:18–27, 1 John 4:1–6, 2 John 7–11, Jude 3–4, Jude 12–19, Rev 2:2, Rev 2:14–16, Rev 2:20–24, Rev 3:9, Rev 22:18–19

The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher

 

[Brightfame52]

Once again, you've smuggled your conclusion into the passage.

No I extracted out what's there. Those who Christ died for God doesnt impute their sins and at the same time, He imputes them with righteousness, which righteousness Justifies them. these was before they were born. hence b4 Faith

 

[Brightfame52]

Justified by Grace then made Heirs experientially !

Titus 3:7

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

What Paul is saying, is that by Christ death, which was by the Grace of God Heb 2:9, those Christ died for were made Righteous or Justified Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience [Death Heb 2:9] of one shall many be made righteous.

Now as a result of this, those ones He tasted death for shall be made experientially Heirs according to the Hope of Eternal life, which was promised them Titus 1:2

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Notice how Paul used the phrase Twice in this epistle " Hope of Eternal life" !

But because we are freely by the Grace of God Justified, made Righteous Legally, God must now through the application work of the Holy Spirit make us Heirs experientially.

Notice Paul says right after stating that we are Justified by His Grace " we should be made"according to the hope of Eternal life.

The word made is the greek word ginomai and means:


to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

What this means, is that we should now receive New Life, to become a New Creation, a New Man as in Eph 4:24

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This New Man is created ktizō:


to create

a) of God creating the worlds

b) to form, shape, i.e. to completely change or transform

And so that's what God does for all who are Legally Justified by the Grace of God, He makes them Heirs experimentally by giving them New Being, New Existence, a Existence that prepares them for Eternal Life in Glory..

We are made meet Col 1:12

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Eternal Life is an Inheritance, and its bequeathed upon all the Heirs of Promise, the Children of Promise.

So those freely Justified by Grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus Rom 3:24 which is to say His Blood Eph 1:7, they will be given a New Life corresponding to what they are, Heirs of the Kingdom , which is Eternal life.

 

[Brightfame52]

Once again, you've smuggled your conclusion into the passage.

Yes, Romans 4 equates the non-imputation of sin with the imputation of righteousness. I agree.

What it does not say is that either occurred before faith.

In fact, Paul's entire argument in Romans 3–5 is that this righteousness is received through faith (Romans 3:22, 3:28, 4:5, 5:1).

You keep quoting verses that explain what justification is, then inserting when it happened without the passage ever saying so.

2 Corinthians 5:19 also doesn't say the world was already justified before believing. Paul immediately follows it by pleading, "Be ye reconciled to God" (v. 20). If everyone he had in mind was already legally justified, that appeal would make no sense.

-------------------

Calvinism portrays God as monstrously evil because it teaches that He favours a select few while withholding saving grace from the rest. Scripture is crystal clear that God is no respecter of persons.

You accuse me of smuggling a conclusion into the text, yet you are the one completely blind to the inescapable legal mathematics of Paul's words. You claim that the non-imputation of sin and the imputation of righteousness do not occur before faith. Let’s look at the absolute destruction your timeline inflicts upon the legal justice of God:

1. The Inescapable Timeline of 2 Corinthians 5:19

Paul writes: "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them..."

• Where did this transaction take place? It took place "in Christ" at the cross.
• When did it take place? In the past tense ("God was in Christ").

When Christ hung on the cross and cried out, "It is finished!" (John 19:30), the debt of the elect was legally paid in full. If God did not impute their trespasses to them at that moment, then they were legally cleared of all charges. If they were legally cleared, they were legally justified.

To argue that this non-imputation doesn't happen until a person believes means that before they believed, God was imputing their sins to them. But if God was imputing their sins to them, then Christ did not actually bear them on the cross. Your system forces you to argue that the legal status of a sinner changes from "condemned" to "justified" based on human performance, turning the cross into a loose possibility rather than an accomplished reality.

2. The True Office of Faith in Romans

You point to verses like Romans 5:1 ("being justified by faith") to argue that faith is the cause of justification. You are confusing the manifestation with the transaction.

John Gill masterfully handles this by explaining that we are justified by faith manifestatively and experimentally, but not legally before God's courtroom. Faith is the instrument that receives the knowledge of justification; it is not the agent that manufactures it.

• Romans 4:5 states that God "justifieth the ungodly." God does not justify the believer as a believer; He justifies the ungodly prior to their faith, and then gives them faith as the fruit of that justification.
• If you must believe in order to have righteousness imputed to you, then faith becomes a meritorious work—a human contribution that fills the gap to make Christ’s blood effective.

3. The Abuse of Verse 20 and the Preaching of the Gospel

You claim that Paul’s plea, "Be ye reconciled to God," makes no sense if they were already legally justified. You are completely confusing the legal reconciliation made by Christ to God with the experimental reconciliation of the sinner’s mind to God.

Look at the text: Verse 19 says God reconciled the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses. That is the objective, finished gospel. Verse 20 is the proclamation of that gospel. The minister cries out, "Be ye reconciled to God!" because Christ has already removed the legal barrier! We don't tell sinners to reconcile themselves to trigger God's favor; we command them to lay down their arms of rebellion because Christ has already made peace by the blood of His cross (Colossians 1:20).

4. The Caricature of the "Respecter of Persons"

Finally, you run to your emotional script, claiming Calvinism makes God a "respecter of persons." You are completely misusing that biblical phrase.
To be a "respecter of persons" means a judge shows favoritism based on external human qualities—such as wealth, ethnicity, social status, or good works (Deuteronomy 10:17, Acts 10:34).

• In your system, God chooses to save someone because they performed better than their neighbor—they used their "free will" to make the right choice and believe. Your god is a massive respecter of persons because he favors the person who made the right human decision.
• In the High Calvinist system, God chooses individuals out of the exact same corrupt, undeserving lump of humanity based on nothing in them, but solely according to the sovereign counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11).

God doesn't favor the elect because they are better; they are no better than the reprobate. God chooses them to display His unmerited mercy, and He leaves the rest to display His unyielding justice.

Stop running to emotional slurs and answer the legal timeline: If God did not impute sins to His people at the cross in 2 Corinthians 5:19, then they were legally justified before they ever existed to believe. Defend the justice of your timeline or admit your system makes the cross incomplete.

 

[KingJ]

You accuse me of smuggling a conclusion into the text, yet you are the one completely blind to the inescapable legal mathematics of Paul's words. You claim that the non-imputation of sin and the imputation of righteousness do not occur before faith. Let’s look at the absolute destruction your timeline inflicts upon the legal justice of God:

1. The Inescapable Timeline of 2 Corinthians 5:19

Paul writes: "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them..."

• Where did this transaction take place? It took place "in Christ" at the cross.
• When did it take place? In the past tense ("God was in Christ").

When Christ hung on the cross and cried out, "It is finished!" (John 19:30), the debt of the elect was legally paid in full. If God did not impute their trespasses to them at that moment, then they were legally cleared of all charges. If they were legally cleared, they were legally justified.

To argue that this non-imputation doesn't happen until a person believes means that before they believed, God was imputing their sins to them. But if God was imputing their sins to them, then Christ did not actually bear them on the cross. Your system forces you to argue that the legal status of a sinner changes from "condemned" to "justified" based on human performance, turning the cross into a loose possibility rather than an accomplished reality.

2. The True Office of Faith in Romans

You point to verses like Romans 5:1 ("being justified by faith") to argue that faith is the cause of justification. You are confusing the manifestation with the transaction.

John Gill masterfully handles this by explaining that we are justified by faith manifestatively and experimentally, but not legally before God's courtroom. Faith is the instrument that receives the knowledge of justification; it is not the agent that manufactures it.

• Romans 4:5 states that God "justifieth the ungodly." God does not justify the believer as a believer; He justifies the ungodly prior to their faith, and then gives them faith as the fruit of that justification.
• If you must believe in order to have righteousness imputed to you, then faith becomes a meritorious work—a human contribution that fills the gap to make Christ’s blood effective.

3. The Abuse of Verse 20 and the Preaching of the Gospel

You claim that Paul’s plea, "Be ye reconciled to God," makes no sense if they were already legally justified. You are completely confusing the legal reconciliation made by Christ to God with the experimental reconciliation of the sinner’s mind to God.

Look at the text: Verse 19 says God reconciled the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses. That is the objective, finished gospel. Verse 20 is the proclamation of that gospel. The minister cries out, "Be ye reconciled to God!" because Christ has already removed the legal barrier! We don't tell sinners to reconcile themselves to trigger God's favor; we command them to lay down their arms of rebellion because Christ has already made peace by the blood of His cross (Colossians 1:20).

4. The Caricature of the "Respecter of Persons"

Finally, you run to your emotional script, claiming Calvinism makes God a "respecter of persons." You are completely misusing that biblical phrase.
To be a "respecter of persons" means a judge shows favoritism based on external human qualities—such as wealth, ethnicity, social status, or good works (Deuteronomy 10:17, Acts 10:34).

• In your system, God chooses to save someone because they performed better than their neighbor—they used their "free will" to make the right choice and believe. Your god is a massive respecter of persons because he favors the person who made the right human decision.
• In the High Calvinist system, God chooses individuals out of the exact same corrupt, undeserving lump of humanity based on nothing in them, but solely according to the sovereign counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11).

God doesn't favor the elect because they are better; they are no better than the reprobate. God chooses them to display His unmerited mercy, and He leaves the rest to display His unyielding justice.

Stop running to emotional slurs and answer the legal timeline: If God did not impute sins to His people at the cross in 2 Corinthians 5:19, then they were legally justified before they ever existed to believe. Defend the justice of your timeline or admit your system makes the cross incomplete.

You keep asking me to defend a timeline that Paul never presents.

2 Corinthians 5:19 says that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. Amen.

What it does not say is that every person for whom Christ died was therefore legally justified before they existed, before they believed, or before they were born.

That is your conclusion, not Paul's statement.

You accuse me of making the cross incomplete, yet I have never said Christ merely made salvation possible. I believe Christ fully accomplished redemption at the cross. The question is not whether the cross is sufficient. The question is when Scripture says a person is justified.

You repeatedly answer that question with theology rather than a verse.

Romans 3:22 says righteousness is "unto all and upon all them that believe."

Romans 4:5 says God justifies "him that believeth."

Romans 5:1 says, "Therefore being justified by faith..."

None of those passages say people were justified before faith.

As for your argument that faith becomes a work, Paul explicitly contrasts the two: "To him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Romans 4:5)

Paul's answer to your objection is not that faith happens after justification. His answer is that faith is not a work.

And regarding "respecter of persons," you still haven't addressed the real issue. A God who creates two equally undeserving people, grants irresistible saving grace to one, withholds it from the other, and then punishes the second for never receiving what was withheld is showing partiality in the plain sense of the word.

So I will ask again:

Can you provide one verse that explicitly says a person is justified before believing?

Not a deduction.

Not a timeline you've constructed.

Not an appeal to Gill.

A verse.

-------------------------------------

Calvinism portrays God as monstrously evil because it teaches that He favours a select few while withholding saving grace from the rest. Scripture is crystal clear that God is no respecter of persons.

Deut 4:2, Deut 13:1–5, Deut 18:20–22, Josh 1:7, Prov 30:5–6, Isa 8:20, Jer 23:16, Jer 23:25–32, Ezek 13:1–16, Matt 7:15–20, Matt 15:9, Matt 24:11, Matt 24:24, Mark 7:7–13, Acts 20:28–31, Rom 16:17–18, 2 Cor 2:17, 2 Cor 4:2, 2 Cor 11:13–15, Gal 1:6–9, Eph 4:14, Phil 3:2, Col 2:8, 1 Tim 1:3–7, 1 Tim 4:1–3, 1 Tim 6:3–5, 2 Tim 2:15–18, 2 Tim 3:13–17, 2 Tim 4:2–4, Titus 1:9–16, Heb 13:9, James 3:1, 2 Pet 2:1–3, 2 Pet 2:12–22, 1 John 2:18–27, 1 John 4:1–6, 2 John 7–11, Jude 3–4, Jude 12–19, Rev 2:2, Rev 2:14–16, Rev 2:20–24, Rev 3:9, Rev 22:18–19

The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher

 

[KingJ]

Justified by Grace then made Heirs experientially !

Titus 3:7

7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

What Paul is saying, is that by Christ death, which was by the Grace of God Heb 2:9, those Christ died for were made Righteous or Justified Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience [Death Heb 2:9] of one shall many be made righteous.

Now as a result of this, those ones He tasted death for shall be made experientially Heirs according to the Hope of Eternal life, which was promised them Titus 1:2

In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Notice how Paul used the phrase Twice in this epistle " Hope of Eternal life" !

But because we are freely by the Grace of God Justified, made Righteous Legally, God must now through the application work of the Holy Spirit make us Heirs experientially.

Notice Paul says right after stating that we are Justified by His Grace " we should be made"according to the hope of Eternal life.

The word made is the greek word ginomai and means:


to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

What this means, is that we should now receive New Life, to become a New Creation, a New Man as in Eph 4:24

And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

This New Man is created ktizō:


to create

a) of God creating the worlds

b) to form, shape, i.e. to completely change or transform

And so that's what God does for all who are Legally Justified by the Grace of God, He makes them Heirs experimentally by giving them New Being, New Existence, a Existence that prepares them for Eternal Life in Glory..

We are made meet Col 1:12

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

Eternal Life is an Inheritance, and its bequeathed upon all the Heirs of Promise, the Children of Promise.

So those freely Justified by Grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus Rom 3:24 which is to say His Blood Eph 1:7, they will be given a New Life corresponding to what they are, Heirs of the Kingdom , which is Eternal life.

Titus 3:7 does not say people were justified before they believed. That's something you're importing into the passage.

The verse simply says: "Being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Paul says justification is by grace. Amen. He does not say justification occurred before faith, nor does he say faith is merely discovering a prior justification.

Once again, you've spent several paragraphs explaining what you believe follows from the verse, but you still haven't shown where the verse actually says a person is justified before believing.

Can you provide a passage that explicitly states that, rather than one you infer it from?

---------------------

Calvinism portrays God as monstrously evil because it teaches that He favours a select few while withholding saving grace from the rest. Scripture is crystal clear that God is no respecter of persons.

Deut 4:2, Deut 13:1–5, Deut 18:20–22, Josh 1:7, Prov 30:5–6, Isa 8:20, Jer 23:16, Jer 23:25–32, Ezek 13:1–16, Matt 7:15–20, Matt 15:9, Matt 24:11, Matt 24:24, Mark 7:7–13, Acts 20:28–31, Rom 16:17–18, 2 Cor 2:17, 2 Cor 4:2, 2 Cor 11:13–15, Gal 1:6–9, Eph 4:14, Phil 3:2, Col 2:8, 1 Tim 1:3–7, 1 Tim 4:1–3, 1 Tim 6:3–5, 2 Tim 2:15–18, 2 Tim 3:13–17, 2 Tim 4:2–4, Titus 1:9–16, Heb 13:9, James 3:1, 2 Pet 2:1–3, 2 Pet 2:12–22, 1 John 2:18–27, 1 John 4:1–6, 2 John 7–11, Jude 3–4, Jude 12–19, Rev 2:2, Rev 2:14–16, Rev 2:20–24, Rev 3:9, Rev 22:18–19

The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher

 

[Brightfame52]

You keep asking me to defend a timeline that Paul never presents.

2 Corinthians 5:19 says that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them. Amen.

What it does not say is that every person for whom Christ died was therefore legally justified before they existed, before they believed, or before they were born.

That is your conclusion, not Paul's statement.

You accuse me of making the cross incomplete, yet I have never said Christ merely made salvation possible. I believe Christ fully accomplished redemption at the cross. The question is not whether the cross is sufficient. The question is when Scripture says a person is justified.

You repeatedly answer that question with theology rather than a verse.

Romans 3:22 says righteousness is "unto all and upon all them that believe."

Romans 4:5 says God justifies "him that believeth."

Romans 5:1 says, "Therefore being justified by faith..."

None of those passages say people were justified before faith.

As for your argument that faith becomes a work, Paul explicitly contrasts the two: "To him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Romans 4:5)

Paul's answer to your objection is not that faith happens after justification. His answer is that faith is not a work.

And regarding "respecter of persons," you still haven't addressed the real issue. A God who creates two equally undeserving people, grants irresistible saving grace to one, withholds it from the other, and then punishes the second for never receiving what was withheld is showing partiality in the plain sense of the word.

So I will ask again:

Can you provide one verse that explicitly says a person is justified before believing?

Not a deduction.

Not a timeline you've constructed.

Not an appeal to Gill.

A verse.

"KingJ,

You claim you want a verse and not a deduction, yet your entire position relies on a human deduction that completely destroys the legal satisfaction of Christ's cross. You say you believe 'Christ fully accomplished redemption at the cross,' but then you claim that before a person believes, God is actively imputing their sins to them.

You cannot have it both ways. If a debt is legally paid and finished at the cross, it is a violation of divine justice for God to impute that debt to the sinner for one single second afterward.

You asked for a verse that explicitly states a person is justified before believing—without deductions or timelines. Let's look at the words on the page:

1. The Verse That Explicitly Places Justification at the Cross

Look at Romans 5:9:

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Let’s read exactly what Paul put on the paper, no more and no less:

• The Instrument of Justification: Paul says we are justified 'by his blood.' He does not say 'by our faith' in this verse.
• The Tense: 'Being now justified.'
• The Timeline: When was His blood shed? It was shed 2,000 years ago at Calvary.

If we are justified by His blood, then the legal transaction was finished when the blood was poured out. If you say we are not legally justified until we believe, you are explicitly changing Paul's words to say we are justified by our faith using the blood, rather than by His blood alone.

2. The Verse That Explicitly Defines Our Life Before Faith

Look at Ephesians 2:4-5:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved"

Look at the explicit timeline Paul lays down:

• When did God quicken us and save us? 'Even when we were dead in sins.'
• What is a person who is 'dead in sins'? They are an unbeliever. They do not have faith yet.
• Yet Paul explicitly states that while we were in that state of death and unbelief, God 'quickened us together with Christ' and declared 'by grace ye are saved.'

Paul explicitly hitches our salvation and life to the moment we were joined 'with Christ'—which happened at His resurrection—long before we ever existed to exercise faith.

3. Your Unbiblical Definition of "Partiality"

Finally, you claim that a God who sovereignly gives grace to one and withholds it from another is showing partiality 'in the plain sense of the word.'
You have just explicitly accused God of sin, because you are using a human, secular definition of partiality instead of the Bible's definition.
In the Bible, partiality/respect of persons always means a judge rendering a verdict based on external human qualities (wealth, status, works). If God looks at two dead, rotten, undeserving sinners, and chooses to save one purely based on His own sovereign pleasure, He is showing sovereign mercy, not partiality. There was nothing in the elect person to attract His favor.

In your system, God looks at two sinners, sees that one used his free will to believe, and saves him because of it. Your god favors the person who made the right human decision. Your system makes God a respecter of human choices.

Stop demanding a specific modern English catchphrase and answer the text of Romans 5:9: If we are justified by His blood, and that blood was shed 2,000 years ago, how can you claim the legal transaction didn't occur until we believed?"

 

[Brightfame52]

Titus 3:7 does not say people were justified before they believed. That's something you're importing into the passage.

The verse simply says: "Being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

Paul says justification is by grace. Amen. He does not say justification occurred before faith, nor does he say faith is merely discovering a prior justification.

Once again, you've spent several paragraphs explaining what you believe follows from the verse, but you still haven't shown where the verse actually says a person is justified before believing.

Can you provide a passage that explicitly states that, rather than one you infer it from?

---------------------

Calvinism portrays God as monstrously evil because it teaches that He favours a select few while withholding saving grace from the rest. Scripture is crystal clear that God is no respecter of persons.

Deut 4:2, Deut 13:1–5, Deut 18:20–22, Josh 1:7, Prov 30:5–6, Isa 8:20, Jer 23:16, Jer 23:25–32, Ezek 13:1–16, Matt 7:15–20, Matt 15:9, Matt 24:11, Matt 24:24, Mark 7:7–13, Acts 20:28–31, Rom 16:17–18, 2 Cor 2:17, 2 Cor 4:2, 2 Cor 11:13–15, Gal 1:6–9, Eph 4:14, Phil 3:2, Col 2:8, 1 Tim 1:3–7, 1 Tim 4:1–3, 1 Tim 6:3–5, 2 Tim 2:15–18, 2 Tim 3:13–17, 2 Tim 4:2–4, Titus 1:9–16, Heb 13:9, James 3:1, 2 Pet 2:1–3, 2 Pet 2:12–22, 1 John 2:18–27, 1 John 4:1–6, 2 John 7–11, Jude 3–4, Jude 12–19, Rev 2:2, Rev 2:14–16, Rev 2:20–24, Rev 3:9, Rev 22:18–19

The Terror of Standing Before God as a False Teacher

"KingJ,

You claim I am importing something into Titus 3:7, but your reply proves you didn't even read or understand the grammatical argument I laid out on the page.

Look at the text again: "That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
Let’s look at the explicit order of the words:

1. The Legal Cause comes first: 'being justified by his grace.' Paul uses a past-tense participle here. The legal justification is already an accomplished fact based on the grace of Christ's death (Hebrews 2:9, Romans 5:19).
2. The Experiential Effect follows: 'we should be made heirs.' Paul uses the Greek word ginomai, which explicitly means 'to come into existence, to begin to be.'

Paul's explicit syntax shows that we do not have faith to become justified. It is the exact opposite: because we were already legally justified by His grace at the cross, we must now come into existence (ginomai) as experiential heirs through the quickening work of the Holy Spirit (Colossians 1:12). The legal status guarantees the new birth.

You keep demanding a single verse that says a person is justified before believing, while you completely ignore the explicit legal math of Romans 5:19:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Look at the parallel Paul explicitly draws:

• Did you have to 'choose' or 'believe' to be made a sinner under Adam's headship? No. You were legally constituted a sinner by Adam's disobedience long before you were born.
• In the exact same way, Paul explicitly writes that by Christ's obedience (His death), the many shall be made righteous.

If Christ's obedience legally constituted the elect as righteous 2,000 years ago, then they were legally justified before they ever existed to believe. Faith is simply the instrument by which we receive the experimental knowledge of that prior legal reality.

Stop running away from the Greek grammar and the explicit text of Romans 5:19. Answer the parallel: If Adam's sin legally made us sinners before we acted, why do you deny that Christ's death legally made us righteous before we believed?"

---