Is it Okay to Condemn Sinners?

[Hannah1]

Thanks for answering. Now you just need to understand that two separate points are being made.

Point 1 = Sin is sin.
Point 2 = There are degrees of sin.

Both are true at the same time. To teach only one is to teach a half truth. False teaching. Which if done deliberately is itself a mortal sin.

Now in my experience the most common culprits prompting the need to clarify point 2 are the LGBTQ++ activists.

It is impossible to have the Holy Spirit and be a Christian if you continue in mortal sin. But it is possible to have the Holy Spirit and be a Christian if you make continual 'mistakes' of venial sin.

When you grasp that fact, you realize rather clearly that you must not ever blur the lines between mortal and venial sin. Mortal sinners are living on a knifes edge with God. We see this with Sodom ''their sins were grievous'' Gen 18:20, we see this with Nineveh and the flood.

I`m late to the game, but Jesus doesn`t separate what sin is grave and what is not, He calls sin sin. That is what the bible teach. While it is true that some sins can have a more devastating effect they are not put in specific category of being worse. Can you say where in the bible specifically Jesus does that?
That is exactly why He came, because we CAN NOT be sin free, we sin, in one way or another, sooner or later and sometimes it is grave. But think of the lost son. The father welcomed him with open arms and a feast. Jesus say himself that everyone can be forgive any sin except mocking the holy spirit. what doesn`t that tell us. That no matter what sin, we can be forgiven, and that sin is sin.

 

[Hannah1]

You're making this discussion difficult. You keep ignoring the arguments I've made. A discussion works by taking the other person's points, addressing them, and then presenting your own. Instead, you simply jump back to your tunnel vision theology of 'sin is sin, full stop'.

You answered "No" to my question that Paul would not have been used by God to write two-thirds of the New Testament if, after his conversion, he had continued as a rapist, murderer, or other unrepentant grievous sinner.

Yet, having conceded that point, you immediately put it aside and return to repeating, "sin is sin,".

I've never denied that all people are sinners. I've agreed with that from the beginning. What I keep saying and what you continue to avoid, is that Scripture also teaches there are degrees of sin, degrees of judgment, and degrees of consequence.

When we blur those distinctions, we risk giving false comfort to people living in serious, unrepentant sin. Instead of calling them to urgently repent, we encourage them to think, "Well, everyone sins, so my situation is no different.".

We are told to judge ourselves 1 Cor 11:31 and work out our salvation in fear and trembling Phil 2:12. When we do this, on our knees before God, we ask ourselves, ''ok, so the sin I committed today, what does it tell God about my love for Him? Today, did I make mistakes of sin that upset God at the level that He has thoughts of sending me to a very public, graphic and violent death by stoning? Or did I steal candy from the candy store?''

You stumble weak believers into not properly examining themselves by blurring the lines on degrees of sin.

It's like you did not grasp the relevance of your answer to my Yes or No question. Absolutely insanity. ''Yes KingJ, God would not have used Paul if after conversion he was a rapist. Oh and by the way sin is sin, if Paul rapes or steals candy from the candy store, its the same thing..........cough cough cough......''

Sin is sin (true) and sin has degrees (true). You should not teach one without the other.

-------------------

Here are ten clear instance where degrees of sin are raised. Meditate on these and their relevance to our self judgement 1 Cor 11:31.

1. Jesus explicitly speaks of a "greater sin."
   • John 19:11
   • "He who delivered Me unto thee hath the greater sin."
   • Argument: If one sin is "greater," then not all sins are equal in severity.
2. Jesus speaks of "weightier matters" of God's law.
   • Matthew 23:23
   • "...the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith..."
   • Argument: Jesus Himself teaches that some commandments carry greater moral weight.
3. Different punishments at the Judgment.
   • Luke 12:47-48
   • "That servant... shall be beaten with many stripes... he that knew not... shall be beaten with few stripes."
   • Argument: Different punishment requires different degrees of guilt.
4. Paul orders church discipline for incest.
   • 1 Corinthians 5:1-5
   • Paul does not merely say, "We're all sinners."
   • He commands the church to remove the man and deliver him to Satan.
   • Argument: If all ongoing sins were treated identically, Paul would not single out this case for such severe discipline.
5. Some sins lead to death.
   • 1 John 5:16-17
   • "There is a sin unto death... All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."
   • Argument: John explicitly distinguishes between sins.
6. Teachers receive stricter judgment.
   • James 3:1
   • "...knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation."
   • Argument: Greater judgment implies greater accountability.
7. The Old Testament prescribed different penalties for different sins.
   • Murder = death.
   • Adultery = death.
   • Homosexual acts = death (Leviticus 20:13).
   • Theft = restitution.
   • False witness = varying penalties.
   • Argument: God Himself established differing punishments because He distinguishes between offences.
8. God repeatedly calls certain sins "greater abominations."
   • Ezekiel 8:6, 13, 15
   • God tells Ezekiel:
     • "You shall see greater abominations."
     • "...yet again thou shalt see greater abominations."
   • Argument: God literally ranks sins by severity.
9. Sodom's sin was described as "very grievous."
   • Genesis 18:20
   • "Because their sin is very grievous."
   • Argument: Scripture doesn't merely say they sinned; it says their sin reached an exceptional level.
10. Some sins exclude people from inheriting the Kingdom if persisted in.
    • 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    • Galatians 5:19-21
    • Paul lists specific lifestyles and warns:
      • "...they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."
    • Argument: Paul does not merely say "everyone sins." He specifically warns against persistent, unrepentant sins that place salvation in jeopardy.

Reading through this post you miss the point that people travel with God at different speed and different obstacles. There is something called sanctification, where one gradually come closer to God. Also the sanctification process can take years when it comes to habits, "sins" and what have we. Consequently, we don`t know the situation of people. God works with each individual differently. It doesn`t mean they are not saved. For someone that have come further in that process it may look like they are lost. But how can you say God is not working with them. You can`t. Therefore it is not up to us to "judge". What we can do is talk to them and try to help them. That works much better. Jesus came to sinners, he talked to them and helped them. And he did not classify sin

 

[Hannah1]

There are not degrees of sinners. We are all sinners, born into sin with the capacity to murder, rape, steal, etc. Anyone who has studied human sexuality and human behavior in depth knows that modern science agrees with the Bible, that human beings have what science calls a "dark core personality" mostly buried in our subconscious being. This "dark core personality", according to science, is deceitful as to our true intentions, meaning what we think in our conscious awareness differs from our inward motivations.

The Bible says "the heart is deceitful and above all, desperately wicked," using different language to describe the same reality. When science and the Bible agree, it is utterly foolish to argue otherwise.

This is why Jesus taught his followers they were no better than any other sinner, even those who had profaned themselves by drinking blood, considered especially evil by devout Jews.

You are no better than the most avowed homosexual or transvestite and, neither am I. If you want to argue against both Jeremiah and modern behavioral science evidence, that is your problem, not mine.

When the Bible says, "the heart is deceitful and above all, desperately wicked," this means you as much as anyone else.

Dark Personality -- where science agrees with Jeremiah

Psychologists define the 'dark core of personality'

Egoism, Machiavellianism, narcissism, psychopathy, sadism, spitefulness are all traits that stand for the malevolent dark sides of human personality. Results from a recent project show, these traits share a common 'dark core.' So, if you have one of these tendencies, you are also likely to have...

www.sciencedaily.com

Yes exactly. This is something I would like to look into in my psychology studies. I know this is the heart of the issues many times .I recall a therapist seeing clients praying with them after a session and they started to manifest entities of various kinds and she had to deliver them there and then ending up doing it on a permanent basis, she said at least half of those that came to see her had entity problems. I guess that`s where I`ll end up too.

 

[Hannah1]

There are not degrees of sinners. We are all sinners, born into sin with the capacity to murder, rape, steal, etc. Anyone who has studied human sexuality and human behavior in depth knows that modern science agrees with the Bible, that human beings have what science calls a "dark core personality" mostly buried in our subconscious being. This "dark core personality", according to science, is deceitful as to our true intentions, meaning what we think in our conscious awareness differs from our inward motivations.

The Bible says "the heart is deceitful and above all, desperately wicked," using different language to describe the same reality. When science and the Bible agree, it is utterly foolish to argue otherwise.

This is why Jesus taught his followers they were no better than any other sinner, even those who had profaned themselves by drinking blood, considered especially evil by devout Jews.

You are no better than the most avowed homosexual or transvestite and, neither am I. If you want to argue against both Jeremiah and modern behavioral science evidence, that is your problem, not mine.

When the Bible says, "the heart is deceitful and above all, desperately wicked," this means you as much as anyone else.

Dark Personality -- where science agrees with Jeremiah

Psychologists define the 'dark core of personality'

Egoism, Machiavellianism, narcissism, psychopathy, sadism, spitefulness are all traits that stand for the malevolent dark sides of human personality. Results from a recent project show, these traits share a common 'dark core.' So, if you have one of these tendencies, you are also likely to have...

www.sciencedaily.com

As someone that grew up in a npd family and met many around that too I have witnessed how these traits have been at least influenced, opened the door to demonic influence, I have seen my own family taken over. In their face eyes and totally otherwise. If it was oppression or possession that can be debated, but think about it, they all showcase the same traits as the devil. To continue down that route it is only logical they invite entities in. Especially as those people are empty. My partner have a lot of experience regarding this, and he says they have to continue feed the entity if they would stop they are being tormented by the entites and threatened. So it becomes them or others. That this is a bigger problem amongst those considered evil.

 

[Hannah1]

To God, sin is sin. Jesus told his followers they were no better than sinners who had profaned themselves by drinking blood. God's law is singular. If we have broken one tiny part of God's law, we are guilty of breaking God's law. The clear message from Paul is that if we place ourselves under the law or religious rules, regulations and traditions, we "have fallen from grace."

I feel sorry for you, because you think you are better than Paul, who says "with the flesh, I serve the law of sin." No one can keep God's law, which is why Jesus died and why he fulfilled the law for us here on earth. In Jesus, we "are not under the law, but under grace." Again in Galatians, those who are led by the spirt "are not under the law."

“...how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain." -- Galatians 4:8-11

"Standfast therefore, in the freedom of which Messiah has made us free and, be not entangled with a yoke of bondage." Galatians 5:1

"You have become estranged from Messiah, you who try to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace." -- Galatians 5:4

"But if you are led by the spirit, you are not under the law." -- Galatians 5:18

"For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace." -- Romans 6:14

". . .having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And he has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." -- Colossians 2:14

"Therefore, if you died with Messiah from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations—'Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,' which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men?" -- Colossians 2:21-22

“.. .but our sufficiency is from God, who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the spirit; for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.--II Corinthians 3:4-6

You should be careful who you call a "false" teacher.

This is the heart of Jesus message. His salvation, because we can`t. This is big.

 

[KingJ]

I`m late to the game, but Jesus doesn`t separate what sin is grave and what is not, He calls sin sin. That is what the bible teach. While it is true that some sins can have a more devastating effect they are not put in specific category of being worse. Can you say where in the bible specifically Jesus does that?
That is exactly why He came, because we CAN NOT be sin free, we sin, in one way or another, sooner or later and sometimes it is grave. But think of the lost son. The father welcomed him with open arms and a feast. Jesus say himself that everyone can be forgive any sin except mocking the holy spirit. what doesn`t that tell us. That no matter what sin, we can be forgiven, and that sin is sin.

Reading through this post you miss the point that people travel with God at different speed and different obstacles. There is something called sanctification, where one gradually come closer to God. Also the sanctification process can take years when it comes to habits, "sins" and what have we. Consequently, we don`t know the situation of people. God works with each individual differently. It doesn`t mean they are not saved. For someone that have come further in that process it may look like they are lost. But how can you say God is not working with them. You can`t. Therefore it is not up to us to "judge". What we can do is talk to them and try to help them. That works much better. Jesus came to sinners, he talked to them and helped them. And he did not classify sin

You are being too quick to jump in and share your opinion. No scriptures, no sound rebuttal, just skimming over points made and sharing your stories and opinion.

Can you say where in the bible specifically Jesus does that?

You have shown that you cannot read my posts and now you demand I repeat myself to you?

Fortunately we have AI today, copy paste my posts in this thread into AI and ask it the same question you just asked me.

 

[Hannah1]

It is a simple question though, where in the scripture does God say there is different sin categories? and especially in NT

 

[KingJ]

It is a simple question though, where in the scripture does God say there is different sin categories? and especially in NT

You read the first page of this thread and even quoted my post # 20 in your post # 62 and yet ask this question?

There is a thread dedicated to the discussion here: Degrees of sin - Poll

 

[Rad]

Rad you are dancing, waffling, blurring and creating red herrings.

Let's try a simpler approach and try get over the line at least one very simple and important point on homosexuality.

Answer the below with only a Yes or a NO, please.

1. Is God Jesus?
2. Did God inspire the penning of Lev 20:13?
3. Does God change His mind?
4. Did God destroy Sodom because their sins were not grievous?
5. Is God just?
6. Is God partial?
7. Does Jesus teach degrees of sin?

Shall we establish a few ground rules here, this is a Christian discussion site, we discuss issues relevant to our Christian faith, and part of that is asking questions, but what is not a part of that is dictating how that question is answered, you may ask in whatever form you choose, and i will answer in whatever form i choose, is that clear, i hope so, ..... so try again and we'll take it from there.

 

[Rad]

Cringe

Sorry to make you cringe, i'll try to do better

No, separate topic. Reread and try stay focused.

No its not a separate topic, but all part of condemning sins, which is the what the original post was about, i am just making the point on how readily we condemn the sins of others while conveniently overlooking our own, as in "take the log out of your own eye so that you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers". So reread the OP and try to stay focused.

No, I don't think it is.

Interesting.

No, let the point digest before you say anything further.

Ok ive "let the point digest", so tell me, and you can answer in whatever form you choose, when was the last time you condemned someone for being rich or for not helping those in need?, because as you seem only to ready to condemn LGBTQ people you obviously feel youve removed the log from your own eye so can see clearly to remove the speck in others.

I clearly explained why in my post, please re-read.

OK, i'll get round to that later as i'm working through your posts from the earliest first.

You are shifting the focus from the point made. This is a very dishonest reply by you. Be better.

No i am not "downplaying the severity of sin", just pointing out the hypocrisy of some that focus on particular sins while ignoring the severity of Christs teachings on the consequence of others, especially those that they might be guilty of. You can surely see that, or are you in fact being dishonest, if you are, please do better!.

And there we have it. All your waffling summarized. Your goal is to blur sin and not recognize the importance of degrees of sin.

How is my saying to " end your obsession on sexual sin and encompass the full spectrum of Christs teaching" blurring sin and not recognising the importance of degrees of sin when both the rich and those that ignore those in need are both consigned to Hell. That seems like a pretty important degree of sin to me, but perhaps you think otherwise.

-----------

What do you do with all the scriptures speaking on degrees of sin? Do you tear them from your bible?

I can just imagine someone like you sitting in the congregation when Paul isolates a 'brethren so called' 1 Cor 5:11, committing a sin that not even the heathens commit 1 Cor 5:1, and having him removed from the meeting. You will stand up and say ''Excuse me Paul, what about ....'' and before you would manage to say anything you would be dragged out together with the guy guilty of incest ... .

You are a false teacher. Blurring the lines on sin defies logic and further stumbles mortal sinners. Be better.

Hmmm, there you go again, ive noticed you to like to imagine scenarios where your opinion is validated, for myself , i regard my life as one of a wretched sinner , but i see you more as the Pharisee who sees himself vindicated by their actions and is assured of their own righteousness. Just for you, heres the reference, Luke18: 9-14. I also cant help but think that in the story of the woman taken in adultery you would have been there in the crowd only too willing to stone her , as your emphasis on homosexuality and its consequences are only too evident. Until you recognise the full spectrum of Christs teaching, particularly on Riches and helping those in need you are also a false teacher.

 

[KingJ]

Shall we establish a few ground rules here, this is a Christian discussion site, we discuss issues relevant to our Christian faith, and part of that is asking questions, but what is not a part of that is dictating how that question is answered, you may ask in whatever form you choose, and i will answer in whatever form i choose, is that clear, i hope so, ..... so try again and we'll take it from there.

You are dodging. You want to live in a make-believe world where your ideology, which is incompatible with Scripture, is somehow magically compatible.

Answer the questions, or this discussion is circular.

It's like trying to discuss semi-complex mathematical equations with someone who cannot yet accept that 1 + 1 = 2.

 

[KingJ]

Sorry to make you cringe, i'll try to do better

No its not a separate topic, but all part of condemning sins, which is the what the original post was about, i am just making the point on how readily we condemn the sins of others while conveniently overlooking our own, as in "take the log out of your own eye so that you can see clearly to remove the speck from your brothers". So reread the OP and try to stay focused.

Interesting.

Ok ive "let the point digest", so tell me, and you can answer in whatever form you choose, when was the last time you condemned someone for being rich or for not helping those in need?, because as you seem only to ready to condemn LGBTQ people you obviously feel youve removed the log from your own eye so can see clearly to remove the speck in others.


OK, i'll get round to that later as i'm working through your posts from the earliest first.

No i am not "downplaying the severity of sin", just pointing out the hypocrisy of some that focus on particular sins while ignoring the severity of Christs teachings on the consequence of others, especially those that they might be guilty of. You can surely see that, or are you in fact being dishonest, if you are, please do better!.

How is my saying to " end your obsession on sexual sin and encompass the full spectrum of Christs teaching" blurring sin and not recognising the importance of degrees of sin when both the rich and those that ignore those in need are both consigned to Hell. That seems like a pretty important degree of sin to me, but perhaps you think otherwise.

Hmmm, there you go again, ive noticed you to like to imagine scenarios where your opinion is validated, for myself , i regard my life as one of a wretched sinner , but i see you more as the Pharisee who sees himself vindicated by their actions and is assured of their own righteousness. Just for you, heres the reference, Luke18: 9-14. I also cant help but think that in the story of the woman taken in adultery you would have been there in the crowd only too willing to stone her , as your emphasis on homosexuality and its consequences are only too evident. Until you recognise the full spectrum of Christs teaching, particularly on Riches and helping those in need you are also a false teacher.

Its quite funny that in my post I said you were dancing and then in your reply, you further dance..

Rad you are dancing, waffling, blurring and creating red herrings.

Let's try a simpler approach and try get over the line at least one very simple and important point on homosexuality.

Answer the below with only a Yes or a NO, please.

1. Is God Jesus?
2. Did God inspire the penning of Lev 20:13?
3. Does God change His mind?
4. Did God destroy Sodom because their sins were not grievous?
5. Is God just?
6. Is God partial?
7. Does Jesus teach degrees of sin?
8. Did Paul continue in mortal sins after his conversion? / Referred to sinning in Rom 7:15? (new)

Answer the above post. Until you do, discussion with you is circular.

It's like trying to discuss semi - complex mathematical equations with someone who cannot yet accept that 1 + 1 = 2.

 

[Rad]

Rad, I think you've unintentionally proven my point. You keep changing the discussion from "Is homosexuality a grievous sin?" to "Why don't you talk more about wealth?" Those are two different questions.

But this isnt a discussion about "is Homosexuality a grievous sin", its entitled "Is it OK to condemn sinners", yes homosexuality is given as an example of sin, but that isnt the main point of it, or am i reading it wrong, read it again and see what you think?.

More importantly, your conclusion that being rich is itself a sin simply isn't supported by Scripture.

Abraham was exceedingly rich (Gen. 13:2). Job was one of the wealthiest men of his day before and after his trial (Job 1:3; 42:10-17). David and Solomon possessed immense wealth by God's blessing. Joseph of Arimathea was a rich disciple (Matt. 27:57). Lydia was a wealthy businesswoman (Acts 16:14-15). Philemon appears to have been a wealthy believer who hosted a church in his home. None of these are condemned merely for possessing wealth.

Yes its true there are rich people in the Bible, even some from the NT, but that doesnt negate the fact that Christ condemned riches and those that possessed them. Or are you saying that God is constrained by the commandments and teachings he gives to us. If God chooses to use rich people to further his Kingdom then that doesnt negate Christs teachings to us about wealth and riches.

The Bible never says, "Rich people are sinners because they are rich." Rather, it repeatedly warns against the love of money (1 Tim. 6:10), trusting in riches (Mark 10:24), and failing to use wealth mercifully (James 5:1-6). Those are not the same thing.

OK where to begin, how about Matthew 6: 19-24 "
19;“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22“The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are unhealthy your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness! 24“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.", seems pretty clear to me, dont store up treasure on Earth because thats where your heart will be , with your money and not God, you cant serve both God and Money.,

The rich young ruler was not condemned because he possessed money. Jesus exposed the fact that his wealth was his idol. Zacchaeus was not saved because he became poor; he gave generously because salvation had already transformed his heart. Jesus said, "Today salvation has come to this house," because He had found a repentant man whose faith produced fruit.

Lets just see what Christ said about the rich young ruler shall we, not your interpretation of it, Ok Matthew 19:16-30 "
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what good deed should I do to have eternal life?”
17 Jesus asked him, “Why ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you want to get into that life, you must keep the commandments.”18 The young man asked him, “Which ones?”Jesus said, “‘You must not murder, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not give false testimony,19 honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘you must love your neighbor as yourself.
20 The young man told him, “I have kept all of these What do I still lack?”21 Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell what you own and give the money to the destitute, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come back and follow me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement he went away sad, because he had many possessions.23 Then Jesus told his disciples, “I tell all of you with certainty, it will be hard for a rich person to get into the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to squeeze through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to get into the kingdom of God.” Christ is not talking of "idols", his statement is clear and reiterated in the other Gospels, "It is easier for a CAMEL TO PASS THROUGH THE EYE OF A NEEDLE THAN A RICH MAN ENTER HEAVEN" The warning is to the Rich, as already stated, the very fact of storing up treasure on Earth means your Heart is with your treasure and not God, YOU CANNOT SERVE GOD AND MONEY.

As for Zacchaeus, if he had remained rich he would not have been saved , as Christ stated in in Luke6:24 "But woe to you that are Rich for you have received your consolation", true repentance, true faith requires the giving up of worldly riches to the poor and destitute for you cannot claim to love your neighbour as yourself while you live in wealth and comfort and they live in poverty and suffering. Riches are a barrier to faith and you cant serve both them and god.

Likewise, the rich man in Luke 16 is not condemned simply for having wealth, but because he showed no compassion toward Lazarus while living in self-indulgence. The issue is a hardened heart, not a bank balance.

Again lets see what Christ actually said in Luke 16 and not your interpretation of it, so heres the text " Luke 16: 19-31 "
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."... So why was the rich man condemned to Hell, the answer is in verse 25 " But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.", he was condemned for being Rich, for living a wealthy. comfortable life, and Lazarus was saved for living a life of suffering and poverty, or again as Christ said in luke 6:20 "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the Kingdom of Heaven" and Luke 6:24 "Woe to you that are rich for you have received your consolation",

So when you say "the rich" as though wealth itself is sin, you're reading into the text something Scripture never teaches.

Please re-read what ive already written and let that sink in, whenever Christ mentioned the rich it was to condemn them, the mere possession of Riches is sufficient to send the possessor to Hell, we really need to get that clear.

Finally, you keep asking why I mention sexual sin. The answer is simple: because this discussion is about sexual sin. If we were discussing greed, I would quote every passage condemning greed. If we were discussing lying, I would quote every passage condemning lying. Addressing one sin in a discussion does not imply approval of every other sin.

No youre wrong, well i believe youre wrong, the discussion is about the condemning of sin, not sexual sin, re-read the OP again.

The biblical position is straightforward: greed is sin, hypocrisy is sin, oppression is sin, adultery is sin, fornication is sin, and homosexuality is sin. I don't minimise any of them. My concern is that you repeatedly minimise one by redirecting attention to another.

I dont minimise any of them, but you are constantly addressing sexual sin, particularly homosexual acts, and disregarding the many other grievous sins Christ spoke of ,in particular the sins of wealth and of not showing love and compassion to those in need.

"The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil" (1 Timothy 6:10),

"As for the rich in this present age, charge them not to be haughty, nor to set their hopes on the uncertainty of riches, but on God..." (1 Timothy 6:17-19).

Notice Paul does not tell them to stop being rich. He tells them how to be godly while rich

Hmmm, but according to Christ the mere possession of Riches shows your love for it, and the mere possession of riches condemns the possessor to Hell, you cannot be Godly while rich, well in very few circumstances anyway, for as Christ said when asked in Matthew 19 "Who then can be saved", he answered, "With God everything is possible", but to base your salvation on there being some very small camels and some very large needles in Heaven is to build your faith on sandy ground indeed.

 

[KingJ]

But this isnt a discussion about "is Homosexuality a grievous sin", its entitled "Is it OK to condemn sinners", yes homosexuality is given as an example of sin, but that isnt the main point of it, or am i reading it wrong, read it again and see what you think?.

Yes its true there are rich people in the Bible, even some from the NT, but that doesnt negate the fact that Christ condemned riches and those that possessed them. Or are you saying that God is constrained by the commandments and teachings he gives to us. If God chooses to use rich people to further his Kingdom then that doesnt negate Christs teachings to us about wealth and riches.

OK where to begin, how about Matthew 6: 19-24 "
19;“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. 22“The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are unhealthy your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness! 24“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.", seems pretty clear to me, dont store up treasure on Earth because thats where your heart will be , with your money and not God, you cant serve both God and Money.,

Lets just see what Christ said about the rich young ruler shall we, not your interpretation of it, Ok Matthew 19:16-30 "
16 Just then a man came up to Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what good deed should I do to have eternal life?”
17 Jesus asked him, “Why ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you want to get into that life, you must keep the commandments.”18 The young man asked him, “Which ones?”Jesus said, “‘You must not murder, you must not commit adultery, you must not steal, you must not give false testimony,19 honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘you must love your neighbor as yourself.
20 The young man told him, “I have kept all of these What do I still lack?”21 Jesus told him, “If you want to be perfect, go and sell what you own and give the money to the destitute, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come back and follow me.” 22 But when the young man heard this statement he went away sad, because he had many possessions.23 Then Jesus told his disciples, “I tell all of you with certainty, it will be hard for a rich person to get into the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to squeeze through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to get into the kingdom of God.” Christ is not talking of "idols", his statement is clear and reiterated in the other Gospels, "It is easier for a CAMEL TO PASS THROUGH THE EYE OF A NEEDLE THAN A RICH MAN ENTER HEAVEN" The warning is to the Rich, as already stated, the very fact of storing up treasure on Earth means your Heart is with your treasure and not God, YOU CANNOT SERVE GOD AND MONEY.

As for Zacchaeus, if he had remained rich he would not have been saved , as Christ stated in in Luke6:24 "But woe to you that are Rich for you have received your consolation", true repentance, true faith requires the giving up of worldly riches to the poor and destitute for you cannot claim to love your neighbour as yourself while you live in wealth and comfort and they live in poverty and suffering. Riches are a barrier to faith and you cant serve both them and god.

Again lets see what Christ actually said in Luke 16 and not your interpretation of it, so heres the text " Luke 16: 19-31 "
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."... So why was the rich man condemned to Hell, the answer is in verse 25 " But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.", he was condemned for being Rich, for living a wealthy. comfortable life, and Lazarus was saved for living a life of suffering and poverty, or again as Christ said in luke 6:20 "Blessed are you poor, for yours is the Kingdom of Heaven" and Luke 6:24 "Woe to you that are rich for you have received your consolation",

Please re-read what ive already written and let that sink in, whenever Christ mentioned the rich it was to condemn them, the mere possession of Riches is sufficient to send the possessor to Hell, we really need to get that clear.


No youre wrong, well i believe youre wrong, the discussion is about the condemning of sin, not sexual sin, re-read the OP again.

I dont minimise any of them, but you are constantly addressing sexual sin, particularly homosexual acts, and disregarding the many other grievous sins Christ spoke of ,in particular the sins of wealth and of not showing love and compassion to those in need.

Hmmm, but according to Christ the mere possession of Riches shows your love for it, and the mere possession of riches condemns the possessor to Hell, you cannot be Godly while rich, well in very few circumstances anyway, for as Christ said when asked in Matthew 19 "Who then can be saved", he answered, "With God everything is possible", but to base your salvation on there being some very small camels and some very large needles in Heaven is to build your faith on sandy ground indeed.

Rad you are dancing, waffling, blurring and creating red herrings.

Let's try a simpler approach and try get over the line at least one very simple and important point on homosexuality.

Answer the below with only a Yes or a NO, please.

1. Is God Jesus?
2. Did God inspire the penning of Lev 20:13?
3. Does God change His mind?
4. Did God destroy Sodom because their sins were not grievous?
5. Is God just?
6. Is God partial?
7. Does Jesus teach degrees of sin?
8. Did Paul continue in mortal sins after his conversion? / Referred to sinning in Rom 7:15? (new)

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Answer the above post. Until you do, discussion with you is circular.

It's like trying to discuss semi - complex mathematical equations with someone who cannot yet accept that 1 + 1 = 2.

 

[Hannah1]

I think it is clear as day if we have plenty, we are required to share it, if we have more than enough to make us comfortable. That is clear as day. And God does not separate one sin worse than another. Sin is sin.

 

[Hannah1]

As well as that the line goes at comfortable, more than that, and we are required to share it. That is logic,really.

 

[KingJ]

As well as that the line goes at comfortable, more than that, and we are required to share it. That is logic,really.

Is 1 Cor 5:1 not in your bible?

When you quoted my post # 20 did you not read it?