The real big problem with a non-OSAS belief

[KingJ]

I mostly agree.. The only thing they have in common is.. You can't lose your salvation.

Well universalism assumes that God would 'gift' salvation to all. If that were true, He would have to reunite with the devil one day.

I like the heart of a universalist. We should all be for 'rehabilitation'. But, God is not for it as He is able to judge the depths of our hearts and minds. And as such, He is able to know and say ''I removed the devil from heaven as he would never truly hate what is evil. This wolf would never be able to be trusted around lambs.''

This is why I repeatedly state that if God cannot gift us eternal salvation when we repent of our sins, then you teach that He makes mistakes grafting people in and kicking people / devil out.

Either God can judge the heart or He can't. Which is it?

 

[KingJ]

"may" be... does not equal "definitely will be".

You have cherry picked a line in another post that cherry picked. The line has absolutely nothing to do with OSAS. It is speaking to those that are removed from church / handed over to their sin.

 

[KingJ]

WHat mechanism exists for an unsaved person to be handed over to satan (a euphemism for hand him over to the romans for punishment) that would cause their spirit to be saved on the day of judgement?

In my mind what makes more sense is that paul is instructing them to pray that God kill the christian (hand their flesh over to satan to be destroyed) who is sinning in a manner likely to cause them to lose their salvation.

You seem to be all over the show here.

You say in your first line he is unsaved, then in the second you allude to them being a Christian.

Paul was so clear in his teaching in 1 Cor 5:1-13 and 1 Cor 6:9-12 that:

1. Unrepentant mortal sinners need to be thrown out of church as they are clearly not Christians 1 Cor 5:13, they are brothers and sisters so called.
2. Anyone unrepentant in sin, still in attendance, must not think they are a Christian en route to heaven.

The high level goal in the 1 Cor 5:5 (Hand them over to satan) is clearly that Paul wants us to stop molly coddling an unrepentant sinner. You throw them out if they are a mortal sinner and allow constant preaching on sin (like 1 Cor 6:9-12) to convict them if they are merely an unrepentant venial sinner. This will enable them to better grasp the seriousness of their sin.

A Christian can love a sinner too much. Cause them to lose conviction of their sin.

 

[Garee]

Yes .. it does. Because if nothing you do can lose it....

The grace as non-merited labor of Christ teaches us to say no to ungodliness. If he has begun good the good work of his labor of love, he promised he will continue till we take or last .

He turns us we cannot turn him

Job 23:13-16;But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that (let there be) he doeth.;For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.; Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

Ask oneself. Who makes your heart soft?

 

[KingJ]

The scriptures you gave, do not support OSAS in any way.

Oh really? Then please be the first to take a stab at explaining Rom 10:9 and John 3:16 to me.

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

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Your problem is that you are stuck in a dispensation predating Christianity. Mixing that with Christianity results in a gross misrepresentation of God as highlighted in my OP. You need to choose. Either live by and teach only the OT or live by and teach the whole bible.

 

[Dave M]

Yes .. it does. Because if nothing you do can lose it....

exactly what OSAS suggest, and to someone who thinks they are saved and really are not, that is extremely dangerous, the whole doctrine is a mixed can of worms with differnt definitions

 

[KingJ]

2 Cor 3:15 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you unless, of course, you fail the test?

How does this support OSAS? Yes you can test yourself. I totally agree 100%. But it isn't a one time time.
Just because I passed the test yesterday, doesn't mean I'll pass the test tomorrow.

This scripture is actually very hard to properly explain.

One hand you are correct. We are humans who can think we are saved and judge ourselves poorly.

But on the other, we can hear and know God's voice. Words He speaks only to His children. John 10:27-28.

As I explained in post # 139 (Please read it), OSAS is 100% true from God's perspective but from ours, we need to be careful, as we can think we are standing firm when we are in fact not 1 Cor 10:12.

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Back to the scripture. It speaks to me of maturity. A mature Christian that has walked with God and heard His voice many times. Knows to daily judge himself in fear and trembling before God. Much like Job. Someone like that can look back and say, wow, if I want to do something evil, God is all over me on it. He literally nudges me in the path He wants me to take on all matters. He is always by my side.

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Please please please try understand that non-OSAS from our perspective does no incriminate God!! 1000000% ok with walking in full awareness of our sins and works as evidence of salvation.

It is only when we suggest non-OSAS from His perspective that it does!!

 

[Garee]

exactly what OSAS suggest, and to someone who thinks they are saved and really are not, that is extremely dangerous, the whole doctrine is a mixed can of worms with different definitions

The accuser accusing 24/7

OSAS. . .What the gospel does say is we are saved as new creatures neither male not female Jew nor gentile called sons of God, all die not receive the promise to the wife, the church called Christian by the Holy Father

If Emanuel, God with us begins the good work of salvation in us he teaches Just as the patience of his labor of love is better than false pride ,So is finishing better than starting.

Why would a believer think he could lose the gift of eternal life?

Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us (daily) that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

It would seem the difference is in how the word "doubt" is used. If The accuser accusing 24/7

Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now comes salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God Day and Night.

Satan not subject to the gospel spiritual understanding hid in parables. Every time a parson hesitates to make a discission doubts before deciding. The father of lies goal make lack of faith into doubt. Rather than what it really is the process of deciding

Doubt not the opposite of faith. Unbelief no faith is Faith let there be good power

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

Throughout the bible the word faith or faithful etc represents the Let there be power labor of Christ love .The true red-letter addition denoting the unseen source of eternal power

umbers 12:7My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful (powerful) in all mine house.

Deuteronomy 7:9Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God, the faithful (powerful ) God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
I
Deuteronomy 32:20And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. (no power)

1 Samuel 2:35And I will raise me up a faithful (full of Christ's power) priest, that shall do according to that which is in mine heart and in my mind: and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before mine anointed for ever.

 

[B-A-C]

You have cherry picked a line in another post that cherry picked

That was your verse.

 

[B-A-C]

Why would a believer think he could lose the gift of eternal life?

No one (except Jesus) has received eternal life yet. I would think He already had it.

Mark 10:29–30

Jesus said, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or farms, for My sake and for the gospel’s sake, but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.”

Luke 18:29 And He said to them, “Truly I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God,
Luke 18:30 who will not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal life.”

 

[Dave M]

OSAS makes not sense at all if there are conditions attached to it, as Curtis said you must remain in Christ. So the whole name OSAS makes no sense at all especially when we see scripture speaking on so many falling away, and if they do not repent Jesus will vomit them out of his mouth, or remove there lamp stand.

So many seem to want such a easy peasy way to eternal life, but Jesus says the way is hard and few find it.

 

[B-A-C]

Scripture says 'hand him over that he may be saved

This was your verse, not one I "cherry picked".

 

[B-A-C]

Osas does NOT believe you can do whatever you want and stay saved. Osas believes in the continuous abiding in Christ.

...and yet @KingJ (who is a supporter of OSAS) says everyone will ultimately be saved, and no one will be sentenced to eternity in the Lake of Fire.
Sounds to me... like you could do whatever you want.

 

[Curtis]

...and yet @KingJ (who is a supporter of OSAS) says everyone will ultimately be saved, and no one will be sentenced to eternity in the Lake of Fire.
Sounds to me... like you could do whatever you want.

Everyone will not be saved, and those who are not saved will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

 

[th1bill]

How does a person strive to be holy before God if not trying to overcome it on a daily basis?

Yes .. it does. Because if nothing you do can lose it....

I am OSAS, and I never heard such poppy-****. If one sins after professing purity, Yehovah, knowing the future, never entered the name into The Book of Life. They were never saved.

 

[B-A-C]

Exodus 32:32–33​

“But now, if You will forgive their sin, very well; but if not, please erase me from Your book which You have written!”
However, the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will erase him from My book.”

This is one of the clearest Old Testament references to the idea that names can be removed from God's book.

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Psalm 69:27–28​

“Add guilt to their guilt,
And may they not come into Your righteousness.
May they be wiped out of the book of life,
And may they not be recorded with the righteous.”

This imprecatory psalm calls for the wicked to be removed from the book of life, implying their names were once there.

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Revelation 3:5​

“The one who overcomes will be clothed the same way in white garments, and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.”

This verse implies that names can be erased, though it promises that the overcomer’s name won’t be.

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Revelation 22:19​

“...and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.”

While it doesn’t mention the “book of life” directly, it strongly implies exclusion from eternal life, which is closely associated with the book of life in Revelation.

​

Luke 10:20 (NASB95)

“Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.”

This verse comes after Jesus sends out the seventy-two disciples, and they return rejoicing that even demons submit to them. Jesus redirects their joy to something greater—eternal life.

John 6:66–67 (NASB95)

66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
67 So Jesus said to the twelve, “You do not want to go away also, do you?”

This follows Jesus’ teaching in John 6:53, where He says:

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life ...

 

[joestue]

They were never saved.

that's also what Garee seems to reply with.

the problem is, you are basically saying, christians who are saved, don't sin "enough" to lose their salvation. thus, its not possible to lose it by sinning, because hypothetically if you sinned enough to lose it, then you were never saved.

basically making OSAS, a meaningless conversation. in a sense, all it does is foster a conversation by which we can point fingers at christians who sin, and ask if they are actually saved or not.

 

[joestue]

This scripture is actually very hard to properly explain.

Jesus' words are not hard to understand. he warns not to fall away, and not because you can't, or were never born again.

You say in your first line he is unsaved, then in the second you allude to them being a Christian.

my point is, its one or the other, and Pauls advice still makes no sense.

handing a person over to satan, is not the same as kicking them out of your congregation!

its something much more. further more, its unlikely to me that the romans would care if someone is sleeping with their mother in law, so its unlikely to me that he is referring to handing someone over to the earthly authorities to be publicly flogged or put in prison.

so it can only mean that Paul, when he is with them in spirit (this may mean with them in spirit meaning not physically present but in the spirit with the leaders of that church) they will enter into judgement against that man and basically let satan kill him. so that his spirit will be saved on the day of judgement, lest he remain alive on the earth and possibly lose his salvation.

I uh, actually met a guy who told me he and some other people did this, concerning 2 people who should have been in jail. one of them killed himself within a couple days, and the other died in a car accident within a week if i recall correctly (met him in aug 2012)

 

[KingJ]

...and yet @KingJ (who is a supporter of OSAS) says everyone will ultimately be saved, and no one will be sentenced to eternity in the Lake of Fire.
Sounds to me... like you could do whatever you want.

Where do I say all will be saved?

Please see post #221 above, I most certainly do not believe that. I only acknowledge that people who believe in rehabilitation are good. We should all agree with and want that. God needs to and most certainly will explain to us why He does not agree with that. It has to do with Him being 'God of the universe', the only one that can judge the depths of our hearts Jer 17:9-10.

 

[KingJ]

Jesus' words are not hard to understand. he warns not to fall away, and not because you can't, or were never born again.

There was no Christianity at the time of Jesus. No salvation to gift.

my point is, its one or the other, and Pauls advice still makes no sense.

handing a person over to satan, is not the same as kicking them out of your congregation!

According to Paul that is exactly what he means. 1 Cor 5:2 = remove them, 1 Cor 5:5 = hand over to satan.

its something much more. further more, its unlikely to me that the romans would care if someone is sleeping with their mother in law, so its unlikely to me that he is referring to handing someone over to the earthly authorities to be publicly flogged or put in prison.

A lot of sexual sin does not carry a punishment. Sure, agreed. He was just referring to removing them from church meetings.

so it can only mean that Paul, when he is with them in spirit (this may mean with them in spirit meaning not physically present but in the spirit with the leaders of that church) they will enter into judgement against that man and basically let satan kill him. so that his spirit will be saved on the day of judgement, lest he remain alive on the earth and possibly lose his salvation.

No, you are overly reading into what Paul said. The devil is only able to 'kill' someone when God removes all His protection from them. He is roaming looking for whom he can devour 1 Pet 5:8. This happens when someone is completely sold out to a love of what is evil. Take a look at the Amorites. The Jews wanted God to kill them as they were very evil. They would have been removed from all church meetings. But God was not ready to kill them as:

Gen 15:16 n the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.

I uh, actually met a guy who told me he and some other people did this, concerning 2 people who should have been in jail. one of them killed himself within a couple days, and the other died in a car accident within a week if i recall correctly (met him in aug 2012)

Wow, that is so sad to hear.

At my church, when we remove someone (like a recent drug addict), we continue praying for them and the elders continue visiting them. I am sure it would have been the same in Paul's day. There is a lot of scripture on the required qualifications and duties of elders in the church.