The real big problem with a non-OSAS belief

[Curtis]

Again, I agree. They've overcome at least once. They've even started to bear fruit, which they couldn't do without Jesus. However...

Luke 8:14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

Don't you see these people in this scripture NEVER bore any fruit?

 

[B-A-C]

Universalism has nothing in common with Osas. Universalism is the devil's redemption lies.

I mostly agree.. The only thing they have in common is.. You can't lose your salvation.

 

[B-A-C]

Don't you see these people in this scripture NEVER bore any fruit?

Not at all.

Luke 8:9 His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable meant.
Luke 8:10 And He said, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that SEEING THEY MAY NOT SEE, AND HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND.
Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luke 8:15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

Verse 12 - these "will not believe and be saved". - They are never saved.
Verse 13 - these "believe for a while" and then fall away. They were saved for a little while.
Verse 14 - these "bring fruit to maturity". They started to bear fruit, but it never matured.
Verse 15 - these are the ones who continue to bear fruit "with perserverance" and "hold fast".

Luke 13:6 And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any.
Luke 13:7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8 "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9 and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"

Why would the master come expecting for this tree to bear fruit, if He knew the tree was unable to bear fruit?
Why would He give it another year to bear fruit, if He knew it never could?

.. but if not, cut it down...

 

[Curtis]

Jesus said......

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

[B-A-C]

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Perhaps not... but it seems they are capable of bearing "immature" fruit.. or worse.. even no fruit.

 

[Curtis]

Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: the seed is the word of God.
Luke 8:12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.
Luke 8:13 "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
Luke 8:14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
Luke 8:15 "But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.

"Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart,( No fruit.)

"Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; (where there is no root there can be no fruit)

"The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.

"But the seed in the good soil, these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance. (These are the only ones who produced fruit unto salvation)

 

[B-A-C]

have no firm root; (where there is no root there can be no fruit)

Agreed, but even with Jesus and Holy Spirit fertilizing you and watering you... you still don't have to bear fruit if you don't want to.
That just proves the point.

Luke 13:7 "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'

The point here isn't those without Jesus can't bear fruit. We are in agreement about that.
The point here is... even with Jesus nourishing you... you have the option to refuse to bear fruit.

 

[Dave M]

Osas does NOT believe you can do whatever you want and stay saved. Osas believes in the continuous abiding in Chris

do you have any scripture to support this assumption, because I know a lot of scripture that says people were in the faith and fell away.

I do agree if we abide in Christ, Christ is faithful and we will have ever lasting life with him.

And honestly I do not know how someone could fall away once being enlightened. But yet that is what the scripture teaches over and over again. You see we live in a world that is full of traps and snares and lures and enticements that try to capture us from God, and as long as we abide in Christ we are protected we are good, (so we agree on that) but it seems some do not take it serious enough and fall away.


no getting around the scripture,, you can not fall away from the faith if you were not in the faith, these people were in the faith and fell away plain and simple.

1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

You can not be partakers of the Holy spirit if you are not a believer, these people were at one time believers who had the Holy spirit and they have fallen away.

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away,,,,


Sin blinds and those who go back to sin after being enlightened are in jeopardy of being worst off then they were the first time, sin sears the conscious and eventually God will give you over to the sin after you choose to ignore him and walk away.

 

[Curtis]

And honestly I do not know how someone could fall away once being enlightened. But yet that is what the scripture teaches over and over again. You see we live in a world that is full of traps and snares and lures and enticements that try to capture us from God, and as long as we abide in Christ we are protected we are good, (so we agree on that) but it seems some do not take it serious enough and fall away.


no getting around the scripture,, you can not fall away from the faith if you were not in the faith, these people were in the faith and fell away plain and simple.

1 Timothy 4:1
1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

The word, "depart" does not mean that at one time they belonged to God and now they no longer belong to Him, but rather that they stood away from God, never having belonged to Him. The same is true with 1Ti_4:1, in which the word is translated "depart," meaning they stood away from believing. This does not refer to those who had at one time been believers, but to those who refuse to believe.

Besides this, Jesus said that a good tree can never produce bad fruit. Faith is a fruit of the Spirit and the Spirit of faith will never leave you or forsake you.

Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

 

[Curtis]

Agreed, but even with Jesus and Holy Spirit fertilizing you and watering you... you still don't have to bear fruit if you don't want to.
That just proves the point.

Exactly, hearing the word is no guarantee that it will produce salvation. The word must be believed on in the heart of man and confessed out of the mouth. Mental assent produces nothing.

 

[Curtis]

You can not be partakers of the Holy spirit if you are not a believer,

Yes, you can! The anointing (which is by the Holy Spirit) falls upon everyone who hears the Word of God.

 

[B-A-C]

Yes, you can! The anointing (which is by the Holy Spirit) falls upon everyone who hears the Word of God.

huh?
even if this was true.
How can they repent "again" if they never repented in the first place?
How can they crucify Jesus "again" if they never crucified Him in the first place?
How can they "fall away" from something they never had.

 

[B-A-C]

Exactly, hearing the word is no guarantee that it will produce salvation. The word must be believed on in the heart of man and confessed out of the mouth. Mental assent produces nothing.

You can say all these things matter, you can say none of these things matter. That's a rabbit trail to the discussion at hand.
But either way... whatever it took to get saved.. is no guarantee you will stay saved.

 

[B-A-C]

The same is true with 1Ti_4:1, in which the word is translated "depart," meaning they stood away

1Tim 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

No "depart" here. Only that they "fall away". You can't fall away from something you never had.
You can't go away from a place you've never been.

 

[Curtis]

huh?
even if this was true.
How can they repent "again" if they never repented in the first place?
How can they crucify Jesus "again" if they never crucified Him in the first place?
How can they "fall away" from something they never had.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
Heb 6:8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.

It is "impossible" for those who have been enlightened (hearing the Gospel), tasted the heavenly gift (Faith, and grace), partakers of the Holy Spirit (sensing his presence and anointing) tasted the good word of God and its power (Hearing the word of God)

If they fall away after experiencing all these things, it is impossible to cause them to repent. It is impossible to crucify Jesus again (Jesus died only once)

Once again a good tree can not produce bad fruit.
All people in a Church setting experience all these things, but that does not bring salvation; it is only God's calling card to unsaved humanity.

Verses 7 - 9 culminate everything the writer has said.

Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
Heb 6:8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

The rain of the Holy Spirit with all of its gifts is all God is going to give to the unsaved world, and if it still bears thorns and briers, it is rejected, whose end will be burned.

Then the writer of Hebrews, speaking to the true Church, says.......

Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.

Again, a good tree can not produce bad fruit.

 

[Dave M]

So it seems OSAS does comes with conditions,,, and that is one must abide in Christ, well I agree with that.

so the real disagreement is can someone fall away??

scripture sure does spend a lot of time warning us about falling away.

 

[Bill]

"I agree no one can overcome without faith in Jesus. Absolutely 100%.
But not everyone who has faith in Jesus will overcome. Not because they can't... but because they don't want to."

This is absolutely true.

God doesn't force people to go to heaven, but gives everyone the opportunity be with Him.

There are people in this world who clame Jesus as thier savior, yet purposefully fail to follow the fulness of the Gospel.

The example that comes to mind are the gay focused churches in California, Oregon, and Washington State. Where I have seen firsthand people believing that they are following the will of Jesus, yet are openly gay. The ministers and priests constantly preaches the stuff too

 

[joestue]

Osas does NOT believe you can do whatever you want and stay saved.

Yes .. it does. Because if nothing you do can lose it....

 

[KingJ]

No that's incorrect. The Catholics believe that God is the judge. And it's God who makes the judgments.

I don't know why you say it's incorrect. I agree with your line.

My arguments with non-OSAS are:

1. God would be evil for demanding more of some than others, at the risk of them receiving eternal punishment.
2. God would be unjust in that He send to eternal bliss someone who only did A and B, and eternal damnation someone who did A, B and C.
3. God is made out to be a liar as Rom 10:9 clearly says that faith in Jesus being Lord and risen from the dead is the criteria for salvation. God judges the heart and mind as only He can Jer 17:9-10 and gifts saving faith to us 1 Cor 12:3, Rom 12:3.

Now, a belief in Purgatory removes points 1 and 2 but not 3. Purgatory is a second chance to remedy the fall from grace.

I expected you to take a stab at point 3.

However it is important to strive to be holy. As Jesus States be holy for I am Holy. And Paul tells us to continue to strive for the glory of God.

I cannot repeat myself. I have addressed this fifty times in this thread. Please see my post # 139.

If a person falls from Grace and returns like The Prodigal Son. Then God will forgive them. But if you fall from grace and take things into your own hands like Judas did then your fate will be the same as Judas

I explained in the post you quoted that Judas was not a Christian.

100% incorrect. The prodigal Son was an example of a good and bad person / Jew. Not a Christian. The problem is that you and many others do simply not know what a Christian is. The fact that you think Judas was is absolutely shocking. Please read my OP here:

Thread 'So tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is!'

Oct 29, 2024

This OP consists of:

Section 1 - Venting
Section 2 - Explaining what a Christian is
Section 3 - Concluding argument

Section 1 - Venting:

I am so tired of Christians not knowing what a Christian is! It has been suggested that Judas was a Christian. That a Christian can lose their salvation if they make mistakes just before they die. Or that God cherry picks some humans and makes them Christians.

When these statements are made it is crystal clear to me that A - The individual has no clue as to what a Christian is and B - The individual has no clue as to who God is.

Now, none of...

• KingJ
• Replies: 227
• Forum: Questions about Christianity

 

[KingJ]

How does a person strive to be holy before God if not trying to overcome it on a daily basis?

This line is a works based salvation in its purest form.

Works sound and feel correct. There is a lot of truth to it. But Christianity is an entirely separate topic and reality.

There are a few parallels to a Christian's position in the OT. We see it with David. David committed two mortal sins, God did not have him stoned to death. He inevitably repented and is in heaven today. Abraham and Job would be other examples. Job tested to the point of death as God knew his love for Him crossed a line at a depth of intent.

Christianity is depth of intent verse heartless works. Works can result in a depth of intent. But it is not guaranteed. A right heart will produce works.

In the OT there was a divide between sinner and sinner in Hades. Unrepentant sinners in hell and repentant sinners in paradise. So please understand, that I am not mocking our ability for 'works' and a true 'hatred of what is evil'. Nor does God. This is why there was a separation in Hades.

But, Christianity is one step beyond this.