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The real big problem with a non-OSAS belief

...until the end.

Matthew 24:13 (NKJV)


This is one of the clearest verses linking endurance with salvation, especially in the context of trials and end-times tribulation.


Revelation 2:10 (NKJV)


Spoken to the church in Smyrna, this verse highlights the reward for those who remain faithful even in the face of suffering or martyrdom.


Hebrews 10:36 (NIV)


This verse connects perseverance with receiving God's promises, reinforcing the need for endurance in doing His will.


James 1:12 (ESV)


A beautiful encouragement that trials are not in vain—they lead to eternal reward.


Galatians 6:9 (NIV)


This verse encourages believers to keep doing good, even when results aren’t immediately visible.


2 Timothy 4:7–8 (NKJV)


Paul’s reflection on a life of perseverance and the reward that awaits.


Revelation 3:21 (NIV)



BAC, by not dealing with the direct, sound and rational accusations of your belief, you cause yourself to stay in a bubble. One where you can only but cherry pick scriptures with no discernment for context.

Please try understand that fact.

Face the reality of what your belief insinuates, allow your eyes to be opened, then and only then, will you have the necessary light shining on these scriptures that you have cherry picked.

I will address each one soonest. I have already addressed a few, but will look for the new ones.

---------------------------

Still waiting for you, @Dave M and @backNforth to deal with my accusations of your belief.

If I were you, that would have been done in my very first post. Just shocking that you guys have an MO of deflection and dancing.
 
dealing with the direct, sound and rational accusations of your belief, you cause yourself to stay in a bubble.

Absolutely... the "bubble" of scripture. Not my opinion, not my logic, not "the way I want it to be".
Just scripture.

deal with my accusations of your belief.

The scriptures you gave, do not support OSAS in any way.
 
2 Cor 3:15 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you unless, of course, you fail the test?

How does this support OSAS? Yes you can test yourself. I totally agree 100%. But it isn't a one time time.
Just because I passed the test yesterday, doesn't mean I'll pass the test tomorrow.
 
@B-A-C @Dave M @backNforth

My conversation with you all goes like this:

KingJ - ''You guys you are misrepresenting God to the lost as evil, unjust and a liar''

You guys - ''KingJ that is what the bible teaches, you are a 5 point Calvinist which also teaches that God is evil and FYI, He is not evil because He is God''

KingJ - ''Evil is evil and good is good. God is good because He is good, not because He is God. Correct, 5 point Calvinism is evil, duh, I am not one, for these reasons 1, 2, 3. Impossible to defend God as good if you are a 5 Point Calvinist''.

You guys - ''KingJ that is what the bible teaches, here are 50 cherry picked scriptures''

KingJ - ''Stop dancing and deal with the accusations. Scripture is crystal clear that God is good, just and not a liar''.
 
KingJ - ''BAC you are misrepresenting God to the lost as evil, unjust and a liar''
BAC - ''KingJ that is what the bible teaches, you are a 5 point Calvinist which also teaches that god is evil''
KingJ - ''BAC, evil is evil and good is good. God is only good. Correct, 5 point Calvinism is evil, duh, I am not one, for these reasons 1, 2, 3''.
BAC - ''KingJ that is what the bible teaches, here are 50 cherry picked scriptures''
KingJ - ''Stop dancing''.

The Bible says some people (the majority it seems) will go to hades, and eventually the lake of fire.
It says they will be tormented there forever and ever. No rest day or night. _ That isn't my opinion, that's scripture.

No: God is a good God, He wouldn't do that. _ That isn't scripture, that's your opinion.

If there are 50 verses to support something... then it's no longer cherry picking.
Cherry picking is part of a verse here, part of a verse there.
 
The Bible says some people (the majority it seems) will go to hades, and eventually the lake of fire.
It says they will be tormented there forever and ever. No rest day or night. _ That isn't my opinion, that's scripture.

Yes, another belief you don't care to properly study and teach on. Another utter and complete misrepresentation of God.

No: God is a good God, he wouldn't do that. _ That's isn't scripture, that's your opinion.

Not opinion. Scripture is crystal clear that He is good psalm 136:1 and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

I have spent way too much of my time arguing with atheists who grab every straw possible from scripture to try and incriminate God. Do you know that there is NOT A SINGLE PASSAGE in the entirety of scripture that when interrogated, incriminates God!!!!!

Now, on a Christian site, I have to help Christians who are supposed to know that, grasp it.

If there are 50 verses to support something... then it's no longer cherry picking.

Utter nonsense. Such a silly statement.

Go and ask a Muslim to interpret the bible and he will cherry pick 1000 scriptures to support his lazy exegesis.

Cherry picking is part of a verse here, part of a verse there.

When discussing a topic that can and does completely and utterly misrepresent God to the lost. Conflicts with many other scriptures. You should spend a long time examining all applicable context.

Or else you can become guilty of being a false teacher and may need to take swimming lessons.

Matt 18:6 If anyone causes one of these little ones those who believe in me to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
 
Not opinion. Scripture is crystal clear that He is good psalm 136:1 and righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17.

I agree He is good. No argument at all there. Totally agree with these verses 100%. I don't know what else I can say to let you know
I agree that God is good. God is good. You win... I agree.

OK, that covers those verses. We are in agreement.

Rev 14:9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Matt 25:45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
Matt 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9:43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
Mark 9:44 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Mark 9:45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell,
Mark 9:46 [where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.]
Mark 9:47 "If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,

2Thes 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Thes 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
2Thes 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Thes 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Jude 1:6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Do you agree with these verses? If you don't... then who is misrepresenting God?

Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
Heb 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
 
KingJ,
You are dealing with an issue we dealt with in Vietnam in my first tour, after I was grounded. The Golf Course, the airfield, at An Khe, being in the Central Highlands was tilted. Our Cherry Picker was forever without brakes and needed to approach the aircraft from the low side to prevent collision. A UH-1D needed an engine, and the low side was filled with a UH-1B Gun Ship blocked the approach, and I knocked the tailboom off the D Model before I could get a hydraulic foot on the ground to stop moving. These men are rolling down hill and you are searching for the correct lever to put one foot on the ground.
 
Bill, fortunately I know you are a Catholic.

Since you believe in a Purgatory, I have only one issue with you believing non-OSAS.

Catholicism teaches that all who 'fall from grace' will get another chance to redeem themselves in Purgatory. My accusations of a non-OSAS belief in my OP fall away as a result of this. Only Catholics are exempt.

God is not unjust and evil as there is a Purgatory.

The only space I may still have an issue with you on is that it would seem you teach that 'God is a liar'.

Rom 10:9 says that we are saved if we believe Jesus is Lord and risen from the dead. This is not compatible with a works based salvation.

Rom 10:9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Is God lying to us here?



Partially agree. All our names are in the book of life from birth. We know this because all babies and children go to heaven. Many scriptures support a temporary visit to heaven for them until the millennium.

Judas / all who reject Jesus and harden their hearts to repentance of sin, can have their names removed.

When Jesus says 'rejoice that your names are written in the book of life' Luke 10:20, He is not saying that He wrote them there. He is acknowledging that they are still there and have not been removed.
No that's incorrect. The Catholics believe that God is the judge. And it's God who makes the judgments. However it is important to strive to be holy. As Jesus States be holy for I am Holy. And Paul tells us to continue to strive for the glory of God.

If a person falls from Grace and returns like The Prodigal Son. Then God will forgive them. But if you fall from grace and take things into your own hands like Judas did then your fate will be the same as Judas
 
No argument here. The difference is... do you only "overcome" once... or do you have to keep "overcoming" until the end?

Revelation 2:26 (KJV):
How does a person strive to be holy before God if not trying to overcome it on a daily basis?
 
Really?

Luke 4:13 (NIV)


This verse implies that the temptations in the wilderness were not the end of Satan’s efforts. The phrase “until an opportune time” suggests that Jesus was tempted again later in His ministry, possibly in ways not explicitly recorded.

Hebrews 4:15 (NIV)


This verse strongly implies that Jesus experienced a wide range of temptations, not just the three in the wilderness. The phrase “tempted in every way, just as we are” suggests a comprehensive experience of human temptation.


Unlike Matthew and Luke, Mark doesn’t list specific temptations. Instead, he implies that the entire 40 days were filled with ongoing temptation, not just a final showdown.

But even you were right about Jesus overcoming once....

(NKJV):



Just because Jesus overcame, is no guarantee that you will keep overcoming.
What you are not understanding is the fact that Jesus overcame the world by his faith even though he was tempted many times in his earthly life. It is because of Jesus's "faith" that the church has also overcome this world because our faith is his faith.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

If you do not have the "faith of the Son of God," you will never overcome this world!
 
What you are not understanding is the fact that Jesus overcame the world by his faith even though he was tempted many times in his earthly life. It is because of Jesus's "faith" that the church has also overcome this world because our faith is his faith.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

If you do not have the "faith of the Son of God," you will never overcome this world!
How could it be Jesus faith? I can't even figure out how Jesus had faith in the first place. Because Jesus is God God is Jesus and Jesus was aware of everything from his birth. So how in the world can it be faith if he knows it all LOL
 
If you do not have the "faith of the Son of God," you will never overcome this world!

Total agreement 100%. No argument at all.

Jas 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

I agree no one can overcome without faith in Jesus. Absolutely 100%.
But not everyone who has faith in Jesus will overcome. Not because they can't... but because they don't want to.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it!
 
OSAS suggest we do not have to abide in Christ and we still can conquer,
Osas does NOT believe you can do whatever you want and stay saved. Osas believes in the continuous abiding in Christ.
 
Scripture says 'hand him over that he may be saved'.
WHat mechanism exists for an unsaved person to be handed over to satan (a euphemism for hand him over to the romans for punishment) that would cause their spirit to be saved on the day of judgement?


In my mind what makes more sense is that paul is instructing them to pray that God kill the christian (hand their flesh over to satan to be destroyed) who is sinning in a manner likely to cause them to lose their salvation.
 
Osas does NOT believe you can do whatever you want and stay saved. Osas believes in the continuous abiding in Christ.

I have found, there tends to be a spectrum. Even here on TalkJesus, I mean technically Universalism is OSAS.
(If everyone is saved, then no one can get unsaved).

Yes, that's a extreme... but the point is... there are varying degrees of this.
 
I agree no one can overcome without faith in Jesus. Absolutely 100%.
But not everyone who has faith in Jesus will overcome. Not because they can't... but because they don't want to.
Nobody can have "faith in Jesus" until they "first" have the faith "OF" Jesus.

Everyone who has the faith of Jesus has already overcome this world, because Jesus has already overcome this world.

If a person who has the "faith OF Jesus" no matter what hardships or trials they might go through, will always overcome.
 
Everyone who has the faith of Jesus has already overcome this world, because Jesus has already overcome this world.

Again, I agree. They've overcome at least once. They've even started to bear fruit, which they couldn't do without Jesus. However...

Luke 8:14 "The seed which fell among the thorns, these are the ones who have heard, and as they go on their way they are choked with worries and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to maturity.
2Pet 2:18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
2Pet 2:19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
2Pet 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pet 2:21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.

Just because you "overcame" once. Is no guarantee you remain in that state.
 
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