How Can God Send People to Hell Who Haven't Heard About Jesus?

[GodB4Us]

It doesn't. The word translated spirit is breath. It's the breath of life that returns to God when a person dies. The breath of life which is something of God and not man returns to Him and the man, the body, returns to the dust.

The Greek word pneuma has several definitions for spirit and so you cannot assign just breath to it. It can also mean ghost or spirit of a man. It can mean demon. It can mean the Holy Ghost. So it is defined by how it is used in the context of the message but in your case, when you do not believe in an afterlife, I suppose you will view it only in regards to your belief and not the plainness of the scripture.

If we look at this passage in the broader context we see that Paul is talking about the Resurrection. notice earlier in the chapter he talks about mortality putting on immortality. That's the Resurrection. Also, in this passage, the Greek words absent an present mean to be present with or absent from one's own people. Who were Paul's people? The church. What is another name for the church? The body of Christ. Paul is saying he's willing to absent from the church and present with the Lord. However, that doesn't mean it's instantaneous. The dead know nothing, so they have no consciousness in death. So for them one second they are alive here, the next thing they know is the Resurrection. So, it would seem instantaneous to them even though it's not in actual time.

But that's not the point. There is nothing in the Scriptures that "teaches" that man is a being that has a ghost that lives on after death. There's nothing. People come to the Bible already believing that and then find passages that they think support it. Moses gives us the creation of man. All we see is the man, the body, created from the earth and the breath of God. These two combined to form a living soul There is nothing that speaks of a spirit that is man, nothing.

Because when they do that there are seeking demons. That's why God told them not to do that.

You see it that way but the Scriptures don't allow for that understanding


You're welcome, same to you. As I said previously, we come with different presuppositions. I don't believe you've established yours. If man is a spirit that can live apart from the body we should find such teaching in Scripture. However, we don't. We actually find the opposite. This is the reason we're so far apart. We can post passages all day and not make any headway. The main issue that needs to be addressed is whether or not man is a spirit that can live apart from the body.

Actually there are scripture that testify to the after life but you seem to do an end run around in opposing it for what it is plainly talking about so once again we agree to disagree.

 

[GodB4Us]

How is it that you have the rich man being judged before judgment day? Does the parable teach that rich people go to hell to be tormented? Nothing in the parable says the rich man was wicked or a sinner. Do poor people get saved? Nothing in the parable says that Lazarus was a righteous man or that he was saved. It just tells us he was poor. What in this parable tells you that the rich man deserved to be tormented in hell and that the Lazarus didn't? Why did Abraham say the rich man's brothers had Moses and the Prophets? Why didn't he say they have to believe the Gospel? There is nothing in this passage that indicates hell except for a faulty translation of the word Hades.

It simple. It's not possible that it's a real story. The people in it are dead. Dead people cannot speak, move, or do anything. It can only be claimed to be a true story if one brings to it the Dualism of Greek philosophy. The Bible states plainly that the dead know nothing and that their thoughts perish the day they die. We find that the dead cannot praise God. How exactly can Lazarus, Abraham, and the rich man be conversing in Hades when the dead know nothing and have no thoughts?

Again, this goes back to the unproved premise of your argument. That being that man can live apart from the body. You've not established that from Scripture. Unless you can establish it I have to understand it as conjecture.

As I pointed out. The only place in Scripture that speaks of burning in Hades is speaking of God anger burning in hades. It's not a literal fire. Thus, the rich man was not suffering literal fire. Jesus indicates that the wicked who are to be burned and suffer torment will be cast into Gehenna

You're free to doubt it. However, as I pointed out they are the only to places in Scripture that mention fire in Hades.

They did, but they didn't die the next day. Samuel wasn't in Abraham's bosom. Abraham's bosom isn't a location, it's a man's chest. it's mentioned elsewhere in Scripture.

And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee. (Gen. 16:5 KJV)

Did Sarah send her maid down into the center of the earth with the dead? If so how did she conceive? No, we can see from this passage that being in Abraham's bosom means to be in a close relationship with Abraham. Which where we see Lazarus. Again, we see this idea elsewhere in Scripture.

Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. (Jn. 13:23 KJV)

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Jn. 1:18 KJV)

It simply means to be in a close relationship with someone. Likewise there is not place in Hades called Paradise. The Greek word Paradeisos means garden. Where does Scripture tell us there is a garden in Hades? I've looked into this word Paradeisos and I've not seen anything about a garden in Hades.


That's the point. Was Jesus a man then? He wasn't. John tells us that the word became flesh. That was at the incarnation. The point is that the Bible calls the Lord and angels men when they aren't men. So, for the writers who were recording the events of Saul's kingship to call the unfamiliar spirit Samuel when Saul believed he was speaking with Samuel is not unordinary.

Well, see. The rapture occurs when Christ returns. Mathew 24.

Numbers 27:16 Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

Can't see this as the God of the breaths of all flesh.

1 Chronicles 5:26And the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul king of Assyria, and the spirit of Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away, even the Reubenites, and the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh, and brought them unto Halah, and Habor, and Hara, and to the river Gozan, unto this day.

These were spirits of the living but it does testify to men having spirits that can be stirred up and so hardly referring to breaths.

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

No way you can say he gather unto himself his breath and his breath.

Like it or not man has a spirit and there is an after life.

As for the rapture ... discernment and His wisdom is needed for that in reading Matthew 24th chapter and so another topic.

Trying to keep it within the realm of the OP since you seem to be denying any one is really going to hell after they die or be with the Lord when the saints die when there is an afterlife after all.

 

[FernandoM]

The Rich man wanted his tongue to be cooled. Sounds symbolic.
Do spirits have tongues. See Luke 24:39 what Jesus said about that
Spirits don't have flesh and bones.

 

[Butch5]

The Greek word pneuma has several definitions for spirit and so you cannot assign just breath to it. It can also mean ghost or spirit of a man. It can mean demon. It can mean the Holy Ghost. So it is defined by how it is used in the context of the message but in your case, when you do not believe in an afterlife, I suppose you will view it only in regards to your belief and not the plainness of the scripture.

As I pointed out, spirit is a figurative usage of the word. What's happening is people take an English definition and impose it on these Greek and Hebrew words. There's nothing in the definition of these words that indicates a disembodied living being. That is an English definition. These words are used in figurative sense and applied to angels and demons. However, that's because they have some of the same characteristics as wind. Consider what Jesus said.

8 The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Jn 3:8.

Both bolded words are pneuma. Jesus said the wind blows wherever it wishes, you can hear the sound but you don't know where it comes from or where it goes. Well, angels and demons come and go. They are all around us and yet we don't know where they come from or where they're going. Like the wind angels and demons come and go and we don't know where. However, we can see the effects of them when the interact in the world. Just like we can see the effects of the wind when interacts with the world. For instance, when it blows the leaves on trees. This is why angels and demons are "figuratively" called spirits or breaths.

Actually there are scripture that testify to the after life but you seem to do an end run around in opposing it for what it is plainly talking about so once again we agree to disagree.

Well, if you'd establish, from Scripture, that man is a spirit you could accuse me of doing an end around. However, as long as you haven't established, from Scripture, that man "IS" a spirit you are presenting conjecture. It can be your opinion that man is a spirit, however, that doesn't make it fact. So, rather than continuing to run around the bush, why don't you establish, from Scripture, that man "IS" a spirit. If you'd do that we could move forward and stop spinning our wheels.

 

[Butch5]

Numbers 27:16 Let the Lord, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

Can't see this as the God of the breaths of all flesh.

That's exactly what it is. In Gen. 2:7 Moses says that God breathed into the man the breath of lives. It's plural. It's literally the breath of lives. So everyone has a breath of life from God. So, He would be the God of the breaths of all flesh.

1 Chronicles 5:26And the God of Israel stirred up the spirit of Pul king of Assyria, and the spirit of Tilgathpilneser king of Assyria, and he carried them away, even the Reubenites, and the Gadites, and the half tribe of Manasseh, and brought them unto Halah, and Habor, and Hara, and to the river Gozan, unto this day.

These were spirits of the living but it does testify to men having spirits that can be stirred up and so hardly referring to breaths.

Sure men have breaths that can be stirred up. The breath of life isn't air. It's the God's power that animates a man. Job says the breath of God give him understanding. It's the power of God that makes us alive, it makes us able to reason, to move to do all of the things we do. So, surely God could stir up the breath of life or the power of life in a man to do things.

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

No way you can say he gather unto himself his breath and his breath.

His Neshamah and His Ruach. Here is a link that explains Hebrew Parallelisms. This passage is one.

What Is Synonymous Parallelism in Hebrew Poetry?

Synonymous parallelism is a literary device often used in Hebrew poetry that involves the repetition of the same idea in two different ways. This device is used to highlight and amplify important ideas.

www.christianity.com

Like it or not man has a spirit and there is an after life.

As for the rapture ... discernment and His wisdom is needed for that in reading Matthew 24th chapter and so another topic.

Trying to keep it within the realm of the OP since you seem to be denying any one is really going to hell after they die or be with the Lord when the saints die when there is an afterlife after all.

I didn't say man doesn't have a spirit. He does. It is the breath of life. Your claim is that this spirit or breath lives on as the man after death. That must mean that the spirit or breath "IS" the man and not the body. The body cannot be the man if he continues on after the body dies. This is where the problem lies. You're posting passages that say man "has" a spirit or breath to try to prove your claim that man "IS" a spirit or breath. To prove your claim it has to be established that man "IS" a spirit.

 

[Butch5]

The Rich man wanted his tongue to be cooled. Sounds symbolic.
Do spirits have tongues. See Luke 24:39 what Jesus said about that
Spirits don't have flesh and bones.

Agreed! That's one of the points many miss. These are supposed to be spirits in Hades yet we find that they have bodies. Lazarus at least has a finger. Abraham has a bosom and a mouth. The rich man at least has eyes and a tongue. Spirits don't have flesh bodies. Also, it says the rich man was buried and in Hades he lifted up his eyes. If hades was the grave we'd expect to see bodies and body parts.

 

[complete]

'Be sure that you have Scripture,
For all you say or do;
And where God's Word is silent,
May you be silent too.'

Hello @GodB4Us and @Butch5,

I would ask you both to please take the time to consider the comprehensive study on this subject that I gave a link to earlier. It would be worth every moment spent upon it. I will give the link again:-

https://seedandbread.org/download/Additional-Written-Studies/Special-Full-Length-Studies-Sellers/SS18-The-Rich-Man-and-Lazarus-1.pdf

It is long and painstaking, he has left no stone unturned, so it will take patience to sit quietly and read it with an open Bible, but I do ask you, and anyone else, to do so, for it is meaty and full of Scriptural evidence.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Agreed! That's one of the points many miss. These are supposed to be spirits in Hades yet we find that they have bodies. Lazarus at least has a finger. Abraham has a bosom and a mouth. The rich man at least has eyes and a tongue. Spirits don't have flesh bodies. Also, it says the rich man was buried and in Hades he lifted up his eyes. If hades was the grave we'd expect to see bodies and body parts.

'Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me, and see;
for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have.
And when He had thus spoken, He shewed them His hands and His feet.'
(Luke 24:39-40)

 

[Butch5]

'Be sure that you have Scripture,
For all you say or do;
And where God's Word is silent,
May you be silent too.'

Hello @GodB4Us and @Butch5,

I would ask you both to please take the time to consider the comprehensive study on this subject that I gave a link to earlier. It would be worth every moment spent upon it. I will give the link again:-

https://seedandbread.org/download/Additional-Written-Studies/Special-Full-Length-Studies-Sellers/SS18-The-Rich-Man-and-Lazarus-1.pdf

It is long and painstaking, he has left no stone unturned, so it will take patience to sit quietly and read it with an open Bible, but I do ask you, and anyone else, to do so, for it is meaty and full of Scriptural evidence.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris, I looked at it briefly yesterday and will look it over throughly. However, I don't come to this subject with 30 minute Bible study. I have studied thos subject for years. I have researched the the main words used in this subject and their use through Scripture. I've studied the passages used to argue in favor of the ghost position.

I think one reason many misunderstand a lot in Scripture is because they're not connecting the Two Testaments.

 

[GodB4Us]

The Rich man wanted his tongue to be cooled. Sounds symbolic.
Do spirits have tongues. See Luke 24:39 what Jesus said about that
Spirits don't have flesh and bones.

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus was referring to proving He has risen from the dead as resurrected. This was not inferring that there is no awareness in the after life.

Since Jesus told the story of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, with a reference to the spirit of a real life historical person as Abraham in citing his response, and since what Jesus says is true, it cannot be a made up story les He be guilty of the sin of bearing false witness about Abraham in the after life. So the spirits of the dead are aware and can have a spiritual tongue that they wish for a cooling of their tongues by water from Abraham's side. Indeed, one has to have a tongue to be able to speak in the afterlife as in Jesus's story or even "from" the afterlife when sinners seek mediums to contact the dead for counsels which is an abomination to the Lord for not seeking His counsel instead. Isaiah 8:19

 

[GodB4Us]

As I pointed out, spirit is a figurative usage of the word. What's happening is people take an English definition and impose it on these Greek and Hebrew words. There's nothing in the definition of these words that indicates a disembodied living being. That is an English definition. These words are used in figurative sense and applied to angels and demons. However, that's because they have some of the same characteristics as wind. Consider what Jesus said.

I am considering what Jesus said in that account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, especially when using a reference to a real life historical person such as Abraham.

Since what Jesus says is true, it cannot be a made up story les He be guilty of the sin of bearing false witness about Abraham in the after life. So the spirits of the dead are aware and can have a spiritual tongue that they wish for a cooling of their tongues by water from Abraham's side. Indeed, one has to have a tongue to be able to speak in the afterlife as in Jesus's story or even "from" the afterlife when sinners seek mediums to contact the dead for counsels which is an abomination to the Lord for not seeking His counsel instead. Isaiah 8:19

8 The wind blows wherever it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
W. Hall Harris III et al., eds., The Lexham English Bible (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2012), Jn 3:8.

Not really relevant to the topic about the after life when Jesus telling the story of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus is relevant.

Both bolded words are pneuma. Jesus said the wind blows wherever it wishes, you can hear the sound but you don't know where it comes from or where it goes. Well, angels and demons come and go. They are all around us and yet we don't know where they come from or where they're going. Like the wind angels and demons come and go and we don't know where. However, we can see the effects of them when the interact in the world. Just like we can see the effects of the wind when interacts with the world. For instance, when it blows the leaves on trees. This is why angels and demons are "figuratively" called spirits or breaths.

Figuratively? Just to be clear on what you are posting, do you believe demons and angels exists or just a metaphor?

Well, if you'd establish, from Scripture, that man is a spirit you could accuse me of doing an end around. However, as long as you haven't established, from Scripture, that man "IS" a spirit you are presenting conjecture. It can be your opinion that man is a spirit, however, that doesn't make it fact. So, rather than continuing to run around the bush, why don't you establish, from Scripture, that man "IS" a spirit. If you'd do that we could move forward and stop spinning our wheels.

Seems the topic of man is a spirit can result in a spinning our wheels anyway due to our differences in belief about the afterlife.

 

[GodB4Us]

That's exactly what it is. In Gen. 2:7 Moses says that God breathed into the man the breath of lives. It's plural. It's literally the breath of lives. So everyone has a breath of life from God. So, He would be the God of the breaths of all flesh.

Sure men have breaths that can be stirred up. The breath of life isn't air. It's the God's power that animates a man. Job says the breath of God give him understanding. It's the power of God that makes us alive, it makes us able to reason, to move to do all of the things we do. So, surely God could stir up the breath of life or the power of life in a man to do things.

You seem to be limiting pneuma to breath all the time.

His Neshamah and His Ruach. Here is a link that explains Hebrew Parallelisms. This passage is one.

What Is Synonymous Parallelism in Hebrew Poetry?

Synonymous parallelism is a literary device often used in Hebrew poetry that involves the repetition of the same idea in two different ways. This device is used to highlight and amplify important ideas.

www.christianity.com

I do not believe this is the case for that reference since Job was not citing poetry at all nor was he attempting to be poetic, but telling it like it is.

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

I didn't say man doesn't have a spirit. He does. It is the breath of life. Your claim is that this spirit or breath lives on as the man after death. That must mean that the spirit or breath "IS" the man and not the body. The body cannot be the man if he continues on after the body dies. This is where the problem lies. You're posting passages that say man "has" a spirit or breath to try to prove your claim that man "IS" a spirit or breath. To prove your claim it has to be established that man "IS" a spirit.

Not sure why that has to be proven in that way when man has breath while he is alive and so in death, man also gives up his spirit and not just his breath.

 

[GodB4Us]

'Be sure that you have Scripture,
For all you say or do;
And where God's Word is silent,
May you be silent too.'

Hello @GodB4Us and @Butch5,

I would ask you both to please take the time to consider the comprehensive study on this subject that I gave a link to earlier. It would be worth every moment spent upon it. I will give the link again:-

https://seedandbread.org/download/Additional-Written-Studies/Special-Full-Length-Studies-Sellers/SS18-The-Rich-Man-and-Lazarus-1.pdf

It is long and painstaking, he has left no stone unturned, so it will take patience to sit quietly and read it with an open Bible, but I do ask you, and anyone else, to do so, for it is meaty and full of Scriptural evidence.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

But God's words are not silent so why read a long treatise that is only favoring your point of view that there is no awareness in the afterlife?

 

[GodB4Us]

'Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me, and see;
for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have.
And when He had thus spoken, He shewed them His hands and His feet.'
(Luke 24:39-40)

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Jesus was referring to proving He has risen from the dead as resurrected. This was not inferring that there is no awareness in the after life.

Since Jesus told the story of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, with a reference to the spirit of a real life historical person as Abraham in citing his response, and since what Jesus says is true, it cannot be a made up story les He be guilty of the sin of bearing false witness about Abraham in the after life. So the spirits of the dead are aware and can have a spiritual tongue that they wish for a cooling of their tongues by water from Abraham's side. Indeed, one has to have a tongue to be able to speak in the afterlife as in Jesus's story or even "from" the afterlife when sinners seek mediums to contact the dead for counsels which is an abomination to the Lord for not seeking His counsel instead. Isaiah 8:19

 

[Butch5]

I am considering what Jesus said in that account of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus, especially when using a reference to a real life historical person such as Abraham.

Since what Jesus says is true, it cannot be a made up story les He be guilty of the sin of bearing false witness about Abraham in the after life. So the spirits of the dead are aware and can have a spiritual tongue that they wish for a cooling of their tongues by water from Abraham's side. Indeed, one has to have a tongue to be able to speak in the afterlife as in Jesus's story or even "from" the afterlife when sinners seek mediums to contact the dead for counsels which is an abomination to the Lord for not seeking His counsel instead. Isaiah 8:19

This line of reasoning is fallacious. Jesus using a parable to speak judgment against the priesthood is not a lie or being dishonest. He did the same in the parable of the vineyard. The Scriptures tell us that Jesus only used parables to speak to the Jewish leadership.

Not really relevant to the topic about the after life when Jesus telling the story of the rich man and the beggar Lazarus is relevant.

Sure it is. It's you're contention that the Spirit lives on after the body. Showing that the spirit is not the person is relevant to that.

Figuratively? Just to be clear on what you are posting, do you believe demons and angels exists or just a metaphor?

Angels and demons are real, however, they are not winds or breaths. They are figuratively called spirits. Again, the Greek and Hebrew words don't mean a disembodied conscious being. The English word spirit does.

Seems the topic of man is a spirit can result in a spinning our wheels anyway due to our differences in belief about the afterlife.

No. That will put a stop to the spinning wheels. If you can prove that man "is" a spirit then my argument is shown false. If you cannot then your argument cannot be established as fact. It's my contention that man is a physical being that is infused with the breath of God. That breath is God and not man. When that breath goes back to God, man dies and returns to dust. If you can prove "from Scripture" that man "is" a spirit, you'll prove me wrong and establish your premise. This whole debate will end if you prove that man "is" a spirit.

 

[GodB4Us]

This line of reasoning is fallacious. Jesus using a parable to speak judgment against the priesthood is not a lie or being dishonest. He did the same in the parable of the vineyard. The Scriptures tell us that Jesus only used parables to speak to the Jewish leadership.

Did Jesus used a reference to a real life historical person in the parable of the vineyard?

Sure it is. It's you're contention that the Spirit lives on after the body. Showing that the spirit is not the person is relevant to that.

Angels and demons are real, however, they are not winds or breaths. They are figuratively called spirits. Again, the Greek and Hebrew words don't mean a disembodied conscious being. The English word spirit does.

Are not demons disembodied conscious being?

No. That will put a stop to the spinning wheels. If you can prove that man "is" a spirit then my argument is shown false. If you cannot then your argument cannot be established as fact. It's my contention that man is a physical being that is infused with the breath of God. That breath is God and not man. When that breath goes back to God, man dies and returns to dust. If you can prove "from Scripture" that man "is" a spirit, you'll prove me wrong and establish your premise. This whole debate will end if you prove that man "is" a spirit.

How about when Jesus bore witness indirectly that He was not a spirit thus testifying to the spirit of a man as in his ghost in deference to Himself as the resurrected Son of God?

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

 

[Butch5]

You seem to be limiting pneuma to breath all the time.

Because that's what the words mean. We don't use a figure of speech as the definition of a word. Example, suppose there is a boxing match and before the match the boxers talk about how they're going whip up on one another. We say they're "talking tracsh". "Talking trash" is a figure of speech. When we say that do we mean that when the boxers talk old cans, waste food, empty packages etc. are coming out of their mouths? Of course not. We don't take it literally. We know it's a figure of speech. So, what does it mean. It means that what they're saying are worthless words that and are equivalent to trash. So, knowing that, does the definition of trash now mean words boxers say? If I look up the word trash in the dictionary will it say, "words boxers say" of course not. We don't use figures of speech to define words. We use the literal definition. The fact that a figure of speech is not literal is what tells us it's a figure of speech. Is a demon literally a wind? No, so we know that a demon being called a wind is a figure of speech.

I do not believe this is the case for that reference since Job was not citing poetry at all nor was he attempting to be poetic, but telling it like it is.

Job 34:14 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Well, that doesn't change anything. Several books of the Bible are written in poetic form. Job is one them. Whether we believe it or not doesn't change that fact. It only changes whether we understand correctly or not

Not sure why that has to be proven in that way when man has breath while he is alive and so in death, man also gives up his spirit and not just his breath.

It has to be proven because it is the basis of your argument. If you can't establish that you have no basis for your argument. It other words if you can't establish that all you've given in this discussion is your opinion.

 

[Butch5]

Did Jesus used a reference to a real life historical person in the parable of the vineyard?

That's irrelevant. He used a story that didn't actually happen to make His point about the judgment that was coming, just as He did with Lazarus and thr Rich Man.

Are not demons disembodied conscious being?

They are. And in English we call them spirits, because that is the main English definition of spirit. However, that is not the definition of the Greek and Hebrew words. That's why the word spirit shouldn't be used. It causes people to import a foreign idea into the text of Scripture.

How about when Jesus bore witness indirectly that He was not a spirit thus testifying to the spirit of a man as in his ghost in deference to Himself as the resurrected Son of God?

Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Not following you here. Jesus said He was not a spirit. This should end the whole debate. Jesus was man and not a spirit, thus man is not a spirit.

 

[JillianGrimes]

Oh, if you only knew how many forums like this I've seen. You are not the first person to find inaccuracies in scripture. I will point out that I am not deeply religious, but I am convinced that God is necessary for our world. You have no idea what miracles God can do these days. Even though there is not a single documented proof of his existence. You can read this article here Portland Pentecostal Apostolic Church | First Church Love Oregon. It talks about the first church in the world to hold meetings to heal people from mental trauma and to know God through the love of self and others. You can't imagine how well this methodology works.

 

[GodB4Us]

Because that's what the words mean. We don't use a figure of speech as the definition of a word. Example, suppose there is a boxing match and before the match the boxers talk about how they're going whip up on one another. We say they're "talking tracsh". "Talking trash" is a figure of speech. When we say that do we mean that when the boxers talk old cans, waste food, empty packages etc. are coming out of their mouths? Of course not. We don't take it literally. We know it's a figure of speech. So, what does it mean. It means that what they're saying are worthless words that and are equivalent to trash. So, knowing that, does the definition of trash now mean words boxers say? If I look up the word trash in the dictionary will it say, "words boxers say" of course not. We don't use figures of speech to define words. We use the literal definition. The fact that a figure of speech is not literal is what tells us it's a figure of speech. Is a demon literally a wind? No, so we know that a demon being called a wind is a figure of speech.

You do realize that the Greek word "pneuma" may also be referring to the Person of the Holy Spirit? So the word pneuma is defined by how it is used in the context of the message that is being given.

Well, that doesn't change anything. Several books of the Bible are written in poetic form. Job is one them. Whether we believe it or not doesn't change that fact. It only changes whether we understand correctly or not

It is my understanding that you are referring to outside sources for your reading of the scripture for why you seem to go around what is plainly written.

It has to be proven because it is the basis of your argument. If you can't establish that you have no basis for your argument. It other words if you can't establish that all you've given in this discussion is your opinion.

Scripture can prove the existence of the Triune God and the pre great tribulation rapture, but that doesn't mean every saved believer will see the truth in His words when they are reading it per their preconceived belief into the scripture or something they find uncomfortable in the scripture.

What does it mean for you that there is an awareness in the afterlife? Does it make you uncomfortable that spirits of the dead are aware and can suffer in hell in the afterlife? Is that why you do not want to believe and so influence you in how you read the scriptures in spite of what is plainly written?