Can Salvation Be lost?

[Butch5]

A

Hello there,

I found the link (above) on wwwbeliever.com and found it informative, and helpful in regard to the subject of the surety of salvation. If you have the time I hope you will listen to it, and comment on it's contents.

I find it irritating sometimes when a video link is employed to introduce a thread, because it requires that I have to spend time listening to something, when I would much prefer to read an OP, but in this case I thought it worth the possibility of causing irritation, for it is worth listening to and considering.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

After 11 minutes I couldn't take it anymore. All of the passages taken out context and no argument as to whether or not salvation can be lost. His whole argument was based on a passage from Romans 11 taken out of context.

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

What quotation are you referring to, please? For the first reference is not part of the subject, but an invitation.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Romans 11:29

 

[complete]

Romans 11:29

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written,
'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.'
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as ye in times past have not believed God,
yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed,
that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,
that He might have mercy upon all.'
(Romans 11:25-32)

Hello @Butch5,

The passage is referring to Israel, yes, but the words, 'For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance', is true of all God's gifts and callings, regardless to whom given. The video is not intended to advocate 'once-saved-always-saved', but rather that the gift of life once given will not be taken away.

'For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.'
(Rom 6:23)

'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.'
(Eph 2:8-9)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel,
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved:
as it is written,
'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.'
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as ye in times past have not believed God,
yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed,
that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief,
that He might have mercy upon all.'
(Romans 11:25-32)

Hello @Butch5,

The passage is referring to Israel, yes, but the words, 'For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance', is true of all God's gifts and callings, regardless to whom given. The video is not intended to advocate 'once-saved-always-saved', but rather that the gift of life once given will not be taken away.

'For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal life
through Jesus Christ our Lord.'
(Rom 6:23)

'For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.'
(Eph 2:8-9)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Ok, it's bout Israel. What is the justification for taking it beyond what Paul said?
What is the context of Romans 6 and Ephesians 2? You see, we are taught, as Christians, to jump all over the Bible grabbing a sentence here and a sentence there and putting them all together to try and prove a point. That's how we wind up with all this. Salvation either can or can't be lost. Both sides grab passages from all over to make their case. This shows us that this method doesn't work. if both sides can use it to make their case and one side must be wrong then the method is erroneous.

 

[B-A-C]

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Rom 11:29; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Matt 22:14; "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Calling does not equal salvation.

 

[complete]

Ok, it's bout Israel. What is the justification for taking it beyond what Paul said?
What is the context of Romans 6 and Ephesians 2? You see, we are taught, as Christians, to jump all over the Bible grabbing a sentence here and a sentence there and putting them all together to try and prove a point. That's how we wind up with all this. Salvation either can or can't be lost. Both sides grab passages from all over to make their case. This shows us that this method doesn't work. if both sides can use it to make their case and one side must be wrong then the method is erroneous.

Hello @Butch5,

Abusing the Word of God in that way may be rife on forum sites, but it is not the practice of those who seriously desire to know God and to walk in His truth.

The words of Paul concerning God's dealings with mankind in Romans 11:29, is true of Him in all His dealings and not only within that context. So there is every justification in applying it in relation to all of His 'gifts' and 'callings', to whomsoever they apply.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Rom 11:29; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Matt 22:14; "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Calling does not equal salvation.

Hello @B-A-C,

You have not addressed this to anyone in particular, so perhaps you will not mind my responding to it.

These words were addressed to Hebrew believers, who were wavering and in danger of falling back under the law, which would have made the grace of God of none-effect to them. Falling back into Judaism is not something the average believer is likely to do, not having been born into Judaism, nor having ever been under the Mosaic law.

This was a very serious possibility for those Hebrew believers, but not for you or I.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

Ok, it's bout Israel. What is the justification for taking it beyond what Paul said?
What is the context of Romans 6 and Ephesians 2? You see, we are taught, as Christians, to jump all over the Bible grabbing a sentence here and a sentence there and putting them all together to try and prove a point. That's how we wind up with all this. Salvation either can or can't be lost. Both sides grab passages from all over to make their case. This shows us that this method doesn't work. if both sides can use it to make their case and one side must be wrong then the method is erroneous.

Hello again @Butch5,

I agree that the method you describe is 'erroneous'.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

Hello @Butch5,

Abusing the Word of God in that way may be rife on forum sites, but it is not the practice of those who seriously desire to know God and to walk in His truth.

The words of Paul concerning God's dealings with mankind in Romans 11:29, is true of Him in all His dealings and not only within that context. So there is every justification in applying it in relation to all of His 'gifts' and 'callings', to whomsoever they apply.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

No offense, but, "Because I said so" isn't a justification. I'm not being sarcastic. Let's look at a Biblical example.

Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. (Heb. 13:5 KJV)

I've seen Christians quote this verse to prove OSAS. They say see, Paul says God will never leave us. In the video, he says God's promises are without repentance. His argument is that's that, end of discussion. But, lets look at where "He" said that.

5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. (Jos. 1:5 KJV)

Here is where He told Joshua He would not fail him nor forsake Him. Is that unconditional as people claim? Let's see.


5 And the men of Ai smote of them about thirty and six men: for they chased them from before the gate even unto Shebarim, and smote them in the going down: wherefore the hearts of the people melted, and became as water.
6 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads.
7 And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord GOD, wherefore hast thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side Jordan!
8 O Lord, what shall I say, when Israel turneth their backs before their enemies!
9 For the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land shall hear of it, and shall environ us round, and cut off our name from the earth: and what wilt thou do unto thy great name?
10 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face?
11 Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff.
12 Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.
13 Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the LORD God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you.
14 In the morning therefore ye shall be brought according to your tribes: and it shall be, that the tribe which the LORD taketh shall come according to the families thereof; and the family which the LORD shall take shall come by households; and the household which the LORD shall take shall come man by man.
15 And it shall be, that he that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath: because he hath transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he hath wrought folly in Israel.
(Jos. 7:4-15 KJV)

We see here that God had told Joshua He would not leave him nor forsake him. Yet we see there were conditions. When Israel had sinned God wasn't with them. And, He told Joshua that He wouldn't be with him anymore unless he removed the accursed thing from among them. So, we see that while God doesn't repent of His promises, they are not without conditions. God told Joshua that He would never leave nor forsake him, however, when sin was found in Israel God left them. So, there are conditions.

 

[complete]

Hi Chris,

No offense, but, "Because I said so" isn't a justification. I'm not being sarcastic. Let's look at a Biblical example.

Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. (Heb. 13:5 KJV)

I've seen Christians quote this verse to prove OSAS. They say see, Paul says God will never leave us. In the video, he says God's promises are without repentance. His argument is that's that, end of discussion. But, lets look at where "He" said that.

5 There shall not any man be able to stand before thee all the days of thy life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with thee: I will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. (Jos. 1:5 KJV)

Here is where He told Joshua He would not fail him nor forsake Him. Is that unconditional as people claim? Let's see.


5 And the men of Ai smote of them about thirty and six men: for they chased them from before the gate even unto Shebarim, and smote them in the going down: wherefore the hearts of the people melted, and became as water.
6 And Joshua rent his clothes, and fell to the earth upon his face before the ark of the LORD until the eventide, he and the elders of Israel, and put dust upon their heads.
7 And Joshua said, Alas, O Lord GOD, wherefore hast thou at all brought this people over Jordan, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us? would to God we had been content, and dwelt on the other side Jordan!
8 O Lord, what shall I say, when Israel turneth their backs before their enemies!
9 For the Canaanites and all the inhabitants of the land shall hear of it, and shall environ us round, and cut off our name from the earth: and what wilt thou do unto thy great name?
10 And the LORD said unto Joshua, Get thee up; wherefore liest thou thus upon thy face?
11 Israel hath sinned, and they have also transgressed my covenant which I commanded them: for they have even taken of the accursed thing, and have also stolen, and dissembled also, and they have put it even among their own stuff.
12 Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you.
13 Up, sanctify the people, and say, Sanctify yourselves against to morrow: for thus saith the LORD God of Israel, There is an accursed thing in the midst of thee, O Israel: thou canst not stand before thine enemies, until ye take away the accursed thing from among you.
14 In the morning therefore ye shall be brought according to your tribes: and it shall be, that the tribe which the LORD taketh shall come according to the families thereof; and the family which the LORD shall take shall come by households; and the household which the LORD shall take shall come man by man.
15 And it shall be, that he that is taken with the accursed thing shall be burnt with fire, he and all that he hath: because he hath transgressed the covenant of the LORD, and because he hath wrought folly in Israel.
(Jos. 7:4-15 KJV)

We see here that God had told Joshua He would not leave him nor forsake him. Yet we see there were conditions. When Israel had sinned God wasn't with them. And, He told Joshua that He wouldn't be with him anymore unless he removed the accursed thing from among them. So, we see that while God doesn't repent of His promises, they are not without conditions. God told Joshua that He would never leave nor forsake him, however, when sin was found in Israel God left them. So, there are conditions.

' For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.'
(Rom 11:29)

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, I can see that it is important to take into consideration the context in which a verse comes, before using it to validate a particular belief. Thank you for giving these examples to illustrate your point.

Do you therefore believe that Romans 11:29 is conditional? Or that it only has validity within that context?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[JerryfromMass]

If you truly repent, put your faith, trust, and rest in the Lord, are born again from HOLY SPIRIT above, you are saved. Nothing can change that. Those that question assurance of salvation will always be wondering whether or not they're saved. Sad.

 

[Butch5]

' For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.'
(Rom 11:29)

Hello @Butch5,

Yes, I can see that it is important to take into consideration the context in which a verse comes, before using it to validate a particular belief. Thank you for giving these examples to illustrate your point. Do you therefore believe that Romans 11:29 is conditional? Or that it only has validity within that context?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I believe it's conditional based on the rest of Scripture. People say the gift of God. What is the gift of God? It's eternal life. Who has eternal life now? No one but Christ. So, the gift of God is without repentance, but, there are conditions until we reach that gift.

 

[complete]

I believe it's conditional based on the rest of Scripture. People say the gift of God. What is the gift of God? It's eternal life. Who has eternal life now? No one but Christ. So, the gift of God is without repentance, but, there are conditions until we reach that gift.

'For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance',
(Romans 11:29)

Hello @Butch5,

What are the conditions, you have in mind, which govern our receipt of that gift of life, Butch5? For that gift is promised to those who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord; who on believing have been both saved and sealed by that Holy Spirit of promise. Christ surely is our 'life'. That life is 'hid with Christ in God'.(Colossians 3:3-4), and when He is manifested in glory, we also will appear with Him there.

How can someone who is identified so closely with the Lord Jesus Christ, in the reckoning of Almighty God, lose what has been promised him? Are not God's promises sure ? We who have died with Christ, been buried, quickened and raised with Him (Romans 8), have we not also ascended with Him(Ephesians 2:6) to God's right hand in the heavenlies? Do we not now live, looking, for His appearing in glory, that we too may appear with Him there? (Titus 2:13)

'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,'
(2Timothy 1:1)

Are we not 'complete' in Him? ' Are we not 'accepted in the Beloved'? Are we not 'His workmanship?' (Ephesians 1)

God knows those who are His.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

'For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance',
(Romans 11:29)

Hello @Butch5,

What are the conditions, you have in mind, which govern our receipt of that gift of life, Butch5? For that gift is promised to those who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord; who on believing have been both saved and sealed by that Holy Spirit of promise. Christ surely is our 'life'. That life is 'hid with Christ in God'.(Colossians 3:3-4), and when He is manifested in glory, we also will appear with Him there.

How can someone who is identified so closely with the Lord Jesus Christ, in the reckoning of Almighty God, lose what has been promised him? Are not God's promises sure ? We who have died with Christ, been buried, quickened and raised with Him, have we not also ascended with Him to God's right hand in the heavenlies? Do we not now live, looking, for His appearing in glory, that we too may appear with Him there? (Titus 2:13)

'Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,'
(2Timothy 1:1)

Are we not 'complete' in Him? ' Are we not 'accepted in the Beloved'? Are we not 'His workmanship?' (Ephesians 1)

God knows those who are His.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Obedience is one condition. Following Christ is another. There are those who choose to turn away.

 

[B-A-C]

God knows those who are His.

... and He knows those who aren't.

1Jn 3:10; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

 

[complete]

Obedience is one condition. Following Christ is another. There are those who choose to turn away.

Hello there @Butch5,

Do you have Scriptures to verify the fact that these are indeed the conditions which govern our receipt of eternal life as God's gift to us in Christ Jesus? No one who is truly born again of the grace of God can 'turn away' from the truth. They may outwardly give all appearances of it, but the Lord who knows the heart, knows those who are His, and He cannot deny Himself. (2 Timothy 2:15).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

... and He knows those who aren't.

1Jn 3:10; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Hello B-A-C,

Those who are saved by God's grace will bear fruit unto God, that is not denied. The words of Matthew 7:21-23, refer to those who who have not been saved by God's grace.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[B-A-C]

Those who are saved by God's grace will bear fruit unto God, that is not denied. The words of Matthew 7:21-23, refer to those who who have not been saved by God's grace.

What kept them from being saved?

 

[KingJ]

No it is OSAS believers who are fallacious in their reading and understanding of the scriptures; and your insults against other Christians who do not share your false OSAS doctrine as demonic and satanic is very poor form.
As for the thief on the cross nowhere does Jesus claim that he would be in heaven with Jesus - he promised him that he would be in Eden (a park, a garden) but again no reference to this being immediately.

I am really going to try and say this nicely.

You are completely distorting and removing the significance of the passage of Jesus's interaction with the criminal next to Him on the cross. You addressed one of four issues raised and you did not properly deal with the one you attempted to. Every issue I rasied is the equivalent of a Mike Tyson knock-out punch. I am waiting for anti-osas believers to grasp this.

I am 100% correct in my view of the kind of spirit driving those who outright support an anti-osas belief because of the following reason:

The cross and our security in Jesus is ''THE'' stability in a Christians life.

Now you'all come along as wolves in sheeps clothing / learned scholars who profess to know God....and look to shake this foundation. You will affect young Christians but not mature Christians. You need to heed a verse like Matt 18:6.

 

[B-A-C]

Now you'all come along as wolves in sheeps clothing / learned scholars who profess to know God....and look to shake this foundation. You will affect young Christians but not mature Christians. You need to heed a verse like Matt 18:6.

If you can't lose your salvation, then the wolves are of no consequence.

If you can lose your salvation, then the wolves matter.